Benefits of an "under" step

[VaultNinja]

All the NEW studies are saying that the vertical takeoff step that everyone has been so focused on for years, is not correct. Eveyone thinks that Bubka had a 30 degree takoff angle, well guess what, it was like 18 degrees at best. The pole vault takeoff should not be compared to the Long Jump ever again. It should be compared to the Triple. Long jumpers lose more horizantal velocity off the ground then Triple jumpers. Why would you want to lose Horizantal Energy? The pole converts horizantal enery into vertical energy. So the higher you jump off the ground at takeoff, the more energy you lose into the ground by slowing yourself down to transfer horizantal into vertical through your foot, whether you are free, or under or on. And thats what happens when you jump up, you slow down. So why focus on jumping off the ground. When in reality, you should be running off the ground.
Get over that penaltumate step crap, thats for long jump. We have watched hundreds of hours of vault footage through Dart Fish, and the result is always the same, elite vaulters (I don't care who they are) are taking off with about 12 to 18 degree takeoff angles. The numbers don't lie. Get on Dart Trainer and measure it, don't just eye-ball it on your VHS machine at home.
Plus why would anyone want to try and jump like Bubka, you can't. That guy was an incredible athlete whos physical ability is unmatched by any current vaulter. So why try to mimmic a frieght train when you are only a honda. I know that people spend too much time focused on Bubka. Your not Bubka, your athlete is not Bubka, so don't try to vault like him. He was to strong and powerful and that is what his technique is based off of.

Toby Stevenson said it best right after he jumped 6m "I'm just trying to learn how to jump like me." When people figure that out, thats when they will start seeing the best results.

[MightyMouse]

All the NEW studies are saying that the vertical takeoff step that everyone has been so focused on for years, is not correct. Eveyone thinks that Bubka had a 30 degree takoff angle, well guess what, it was like 18 degrees at best. The pole vault takeoff should not be compared to the Long Jump ever again. It should be compared to the Triple. Long jumpers lose more horizantal velocity off the ground then Triple jumpers. Why would you want to lose Horizantal Energy? The pole converts horizantal enery into vertical energy. So the higher you jump off the ground at takeoff, the more energy you lose into the ground by slowing yourself down to transfer horizantal into vertical through your foot, whether you are free, or under or on. And thats what happens when you jump up, you slow down. So why focus on jumping off the ground. When in reality, you should be running off the ground.
Get over that penaltumate step crap, thats for long jump. We have watched hundreds of hours of vault footage through Dart Fish, and the result is always the same, elite vaulters (I don't care who they are) are taking off with about 12 to 18 degree takeoff angles. The numbers don't lie. Get on Dart Trainer and measure it, don't just eye-ball it on your VHS machine at home.
Plus why would anyone want to try and jump like Bubka, you can't. That guy was an incredible athlete whos physical ability is unmatched by any current vaulter. So why try to mimmic a frieght train when you are only a honda. I know that people spend too much time focused on Bubka. Your not Bubka, your athlete is not Bubka, so don't try to vault like him. He was to strong and powerful and that is what his technique is based off of.

Toby Stevenson said it best right after he jumped 6m "I'm just trying to learn how to jump like me." When people figure that out, thats when they will start seeing the best results.

Very good point!

So why try to mimmic a frieght train when you are only a honda

LOL

But I do think there is some value in looking at Bubkas form, just not as much as people put on it

[mikepv1]

First of all, where did I say anything about Bubka in my post? Where did I say anything about long jump? I said penultimate step technique. Pole vault penultimate technique is different from long jump penultimate technique.

Second of all, the principle you are describing of running off the ground causes the vaulter to depend entirely upon the pole and have very little control over how the pole is loaded. You are thinking too much in right angles.

The pole is not simply bending and unbending, but rather rolling to vertical, with the curve accelerating up the pole, similar to what happens when a whip is cracked.

Pole vaulting is a jumping action. Not to say that you are jamming your foot into to ground to go straight to vertical; you are more settling slightly over your next to last step, and cycling back on the takeoff step, projecting your hips forward and upward. So, I suppose triple jump is a good comparison as well in the manner of cycling back. However, it is important that you understand that triple jumpers do NOT just run off the ground.

By the way, not that I am saying long jump is an appropriate comparison, but the takeoff angle that you mentioned, 18 degrees, is inside the optimum range for long jump (18-22).

Toby Stevenson's takeoff angle is 19 degrees.


Some Notable Pole Vaulters that Use(d) Penultimate Technique:

Maxim Tarasov--6.05m
Dimitri Markov--6.05m
Guiseppe Gibilisco--5.90m
Sergei Bubka--6.15m
Tim Lobinger--6.00m
Danny Ecker--6.00m
Michael Stolle--5.95m
Okkert Brits--6.00m
Rodion Gataullin--6.03m
Aleksandr Averbukh--5.93m
Jean Galfione--6.00m
Igor Trandenkov--6.01m

[MightyMouse]

I think you both are saying about the same thing, i think its a slight difference in how its said rather than content

[VaultNinja]

First of all, where did I say anything about Bubka in my post? Where did I say anything about long jump? I said penultimate step technique. Pole vault penultimate technique is different from long jump penultimate technique.

Second of all, the principle you are describing of running off the ground causes the vaulter to depend entirely upon the pole and have very little control over how the pole is loaded. You are thinking too much in right angles.

The pole is not simply bending and unbending, but rather rolling to vertical, with the curve accelerating up the pole, similar to what happens when a whip is cracked.

Pole vaulting is a jumping action. Not to say that you are jamming your foot into to ground to go straight to vertical; you are more settling slightly over your next to last step, and cycling back on the takeoff step, projecting your hips forward and upward. So, I suppose triple jump is a good comparison as well in the manner of cycling back. However, it is important that you understand that triple jumpers do NOT just run off the ground.

By the way, not that I am saying long jump is an appropriate comparison, but the takeoff angle that you mentioned, 18 degrees, is inside the optimum range for long jump (18-22).

Toby Stevenson's takeoff angle is 19 degrees.


Some Notable Pole Vaulters that Use(d) Penultimate Technique:

Maxim Tarasov--6.05m
Dimitri Markov--6.05m
Guiseppe Gibilisco--5.90m
Sergei Bubka--6.15m
Tim Lobinger--6.00m
Danny Ecker--6.00m
Michael Stolle--5.95m
Okkert Brits--6.00m
Rodion Gataullin--6.03m
Aleksandr Averbukh--5.93m
Jean Galfione--6.00m
Igor Trandenkov--6.01m

I wasn't quoting you, I was stating my opinion. Otherwise I would have quoted what you said before. But since you ASSumed as much, I will atempt to refute you now.
Some of what you are saying sounds similar to what I have been presenting. Except when you said that vaulters are depending entirely on the pole and have little control over how the pole is loaded. So you are saying that every pole vaulter that is not on your "Penultimate list" is relatively out of control, which is basically every American Vaulter? Doesn't sound right to me. Gold and Silver Medalist are out of Control.

I understand that this Penultimate type of takeoff has been very successfull in the past and can be with some vaulters, mostly stronger faster vaulters, but I (among others) am looking at the other guys, the ones that don't bring the same speed and strength down the runway, are on smaller poles and are still jumping 5.90-6m. These are the people to study, and they don't have Penultimate takeoffs, and they are getting it done. I am not "thinking in right angles" I am thinking outside the box.
PS- I have plenty of data to back this theory, how about you?

[VaultNinja]

PS- Just so you don't think that I am closed minded, I think that Tommy Skipper is using the penultimate technique, and it is obviously working well for him.
I jumped with him last weekend, and when he atempted 5.80m he said on his last jump he was running to fast. Which in turn did not allow him to set up his jump off the groud. He still should have made it, he was way up in the air.
I think that Keenan King is also using the penultimate takeoff. But he also is faster than hell, so it will most likely bring him great success. He told me he grips 4.80 on 4.90 poles, and likes to takeoff from 14', talk about a free takeoff.

[mikepv1]

I think you read some rudeness in my post that wasn't there. If I wrongly interpreted your post, I am sorry.

Anyways, yes, I do think that Tim Mack depends on the pole more than, say, Tarasov or Bubka. Tim Mack has always loaded the pole a little low at takeoff. However, he does have arguably the best swing in the world right now. His timing during the catapault phase is also extremely good.

Toby Stevenson, on the other hand, doesn't load the pole at a flat angle. He has no decisive penultimate step, but he does push vertically off the ground at takeoff.

I never said anyone was out of control. I said that a vaulter who just runs off the ground has little control over how the pole is loaded, which is only one aspect of the vault.

When you are trying to get the pole to unload properly vertically, the initial load cannot be purely horizontal.

I am intrigued by the studies you are citing, and I would like to see them, not out of doubt of your legitimacy, but out of interest in what the studies have to say, what variables are considered, and how the data are interpreted.

Lastly, the takeoff argument is a spinoff for me to begin with. Penultimate technique wasn't even the focus of my original post. The tendency of many western vaulters to emphasize powering through the vault was.

I once again apologize for any misunderstanding on my part. I intended no ill will toward you, and the last thing I want is to make enemies on this board.

P.S. - If Keenan King is used to being that far out, I'll bet he was under at Reno this year when he lost grip of the pole.

[VaultNinja]

P.S. - If Keenan King is used to being that far out, I'll bet he was under at Reno this year when he lost grip of the pole.

He said he was at about 10'

Yes I already got a PM about posting data. it is very interesting stuff and should be made available to everyone. I think what I might end up doing is putting it on some webspace I have, and providing the link. Give me some time, and I will get it up.

[mikepv1]

P.S. - If Keenan King is used to being that far out, I'll bet he was under at Reno this year when he lost grip of the pole.

He said he was at about 10'

Woah. Good thing he had that speed to carry him onto the mats.

I wish my team had Dartfish.

[Bonevt]

I find it intesting that while jumping like that he can still have the most efficient jump out of anyone in the 6 meter club. He used the softest pole, his speed is not the fastest, and he has the highest push off.

[VaultNinja]

I got a whole bunch of data last night. Unfortunately my coach is a genius but didn't write up any explaination how he chose control groups and made his calulations. It is very brilliant, but I want to try to type something up explaining how he did it, otherwise the numbers won't make sense just looking at them. I'll get working on it tonight when I get home.

[uconnvaulta]

your the man paul, but you still no heighted at clovis SUKA mwuahahahahahahahaha, it must of been that under take off or your angle at the take off, just playin , qualify already for USAs so i can get a coaches pass, cus its going to be hard for me to qualify when i cant even jump cus im freakin sick