The TAP at the top of the swing

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Re: The TAP at the top of the swing

Unread postby PVDaddy » Wed Apr 16, 2014 4:09 am

If one stops to consider that the purpose of the tap swing in gymnastics on the high bar is simply to add stored energy into the coil of the body (From the arched position pre-stretched muscles from the hands through the spine to the feet) and to add stored energy into the apparatus (the bar) as you go to the hollow position (Or vice versa) in order to later take that stored energy back out the body coil and that apparatus, Especially into release moves and dismounts, You should easily see be able to recognize a tap in the pole vault.

In both cases the chest is leading the way through the arms while purposely extending the feet downward and pushing the hands outward to make the lever as long as possible and to maintain the pressure on the pre-stretched full bodied coil. This produces a fast powerful stretch-reflex reaction as the full body coil uncoils that otherwise would not be obtainable. At the same time this produces the added benefit of more effectively loading the apparatus (the bar and the pole). In fact it is possible that the tap is more effective in the pole vault than the high bar (Because of the fiberglass poles loading abilities versus the wooden bar)? Look at how much the pole bends as Bubka comes out of the full body coil! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-UwBaf8f98

So the purpose of the tap is two fold: 1) To add stored energy to the body coil and to take that stored energy out of the body coil to add kinetic energy to the swing. and 2) To add stored energy to the apparatus (the bar or the pole) while coming out of the body coil and to take that stored energy as kinetic energy out of that apparatus to add energy to the swing..

The gymnast is instructed to add energy during the upswing by pulling against the bar while fighting the forces of gravity and I believe the vaulter should do likewise and Bubka demonstrates this.

Now, when one considers the vaulters objective with Petrov's model in the "Extension", at the top of the swing , you find yet again two commonalities to the tap at the bottom of the swing: 1) To add stored energy to the body coil and to take that stored energy out of the body coil to add energy to the swing (In that Piked position the gun is cocked and as it uncoils it is released). and 2) To add stored energy to the apparatus (The pole) while coming out of the body coil (the pike as you extend) and to take that stored energy as kinetic energy out of the pole to add energy to the swing

With Petrov's model during Extension the pole remains bent for a fraction of a second longer, as equal and opposite reactions take place and this allows the vaulter more time to get into the proper inverted position, all the way to the top arm (The Chord of the pole). The energy stored in the pole is delivered directly up along that chord into the vaulters COM through the vaulters body through the top arm to both hands (The Chord), provided the vaulter is in that proper position. That is why I am and advocate of rotating the body all the way to the top arm. If you are not inverted that far, you will not receive the full amount of energy the pole has to offer across your COM and this will effect your flyaway angle and vertical height.

Perhaps now you can see why I consider both actions at the bottom of the swing and top of the swing to be tapping actions, as both actions involve storing energy in coiled positions of the spine and the release of that stored energy as kinetic energy generated through the uncoiling of the spine (although in two different directions) which both add kinetic energy to the swing and stored energy to the apparatus, that is later delivered as kinetic energy to the swing?

But I have come to except that 'Extension" is the accepted term in the pole vault community for that action at the top of the swing.
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Re: The TAP at the top of the swing

Unread postby PVstudent » Wed Apr 16, 2014 5:07 am

PVDaddy wrote:If one stops to consider that the purpose of the tap swing in gymnastics on the high bar is simply to add stored energy into the coil of the body (From the arched position pre-stretched muscles from the hands through the spine to the feet) and to add stored energy into the apparatus (the bar) as you go to the hollow position (Or vice versa) in order to later take that stored energy back out the body coil and that apparatus, Especially into release moves and dismounts, You should easily see be able to recognize a tap in the pole vault.

In both cases the chest is leading the way through the arms while purposely extending the feet downward and pushing the hands outward to make the lever as long as possible and to maintain the pressure on the pre-stretched full bodied coil. This produces a fast powerful stretch-reflex reaction as the full body coil uncoils that otherwise would not be obtainable. At the same time this produces the added benefit of more effectively loading the apparatus (the bar and the pole). In fact it is possible that the tap is more effective in the pole vault than the high bar (Because of the fiberglass poles loading abilities versus the wooden bar)? Look at how much the pole bends as Bubka comes out of the full body coil!


PVdaddy please. please give up your nonsense. You have just again demonstrated that you know even less about gymnastics than the pole vault.

Your comparison is just completely wrong. Wooden bars in gymnastics what era are you talking about? Modern competitive gymnastics bars (asymmetrical bars for women and parallel bars for men) use fibre glass laminate around sprung steel cores. The men's high bar again is not constructed from wood but high tensile sprung steel! Check out the FIG standards for construction and performance characteristics of gymnastics equipment.

Your explanation of the "tap" at both the beginning and at the end of the pole support swing phases in vault as being the propulsive mechanism used by pole vaulters is not the same mechanism as that used by pole vaulters.



What you are seeing you continue to misinterpret.

How many times do you have to be told what you are calling "tap" is not what the vaulter is, should or ought to be attempting to do.

Stop trying to lead more gullible PVP readers up this pole vault technique "Blind Alley!"

Quoting Vitali Petrov as a source of support for your perspective and interpretation is risible were it not such a sad, perverse travesty!


To indicate some relevant gymnastics exercises related to the mechanism of completing the second phase of swing whilst in pole support and possibly a very unwise effort on my part because like Kirk I don't think we have heard the last of PVdaddy!

I would like to celebrate his promised departure by sharing this video clip!

http://youtu.be/oDRefFBokDA
Last edited by PVstudent on Thu Apr 17, 2014 9:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The TAP at the top of the swing

Unread postby PVDaddy » Wed Apr 16, 2014 12:38 pm

Uneven bars
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Qatari Gymnast Shaden Wahdan


A gymnast performing a Giant Swing in their


Lineup for practice
The uneven bars or asymmetric bars is an artistic gymnastics apparatus. It is used only by female gymnasts. It is made of a steel frame. The bars are made of fiberglass with wood coating, or less commonly wood.[1

PVstudent, Regardless, The point is that they are NOT made of the same material and may have varied abillities abillities to be loade!
The rest of your post is nonsense and your ONLY motivation is to insult me! Do you have anything constructive to say or add?
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Re: The TAP at the top of the swing

Unread postby PVDaddy » Wed Apr 16, 2014 12:44 pm

both actions involve storing energy in coiled positions of the spine and the release of that stored energy as kinetic energy generated through the uncoiling of the spine (although in two different directions) which both add kinetic energy to the swing and stored energy to the apparatus, that is later delivered as kinetic energy to the swing
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There is NOT a TAP at the top of the swing!

Unread postby KirkB » Wed Apr 16, 2014 2:47 pm

PVDaddy wrote: ... The uneven bars or asymmetric bars is an artistic gymnastics apparatus. It is used only by female gymnasts. It is made of a steel frame. The bars are made of fiberglass with wood coating, or less commonly wood.

Right. Wood bar = women; Steel bar=men. I have no idea why you felt it was necessary to bold the fact that women use fiberglass bars coated with wood - that's totally irrelevant to what men use on a highbar.

I'm now wondering if you've just been viewing youtube vids of male highbar specialists, or if you've ever actually attended a gymnastics meet IN PERSON, or if you've ever actually SWUNG on a highbar. I guess not, or you would have observed first-hand that the men's highbar is NOT made of wood!

The fact that you've never even seen a gymnast IN PERSON swing on a highbar (let alone tried it yourself; let alone discuss this with a real-live gymnast) is what gives you absolutely no credibility whatsoever on this topic! :dazed:

PVDaddy wrote: ... The rest of your post is nonsense and your ONLY motivation is to insult me! Do you have anything constructive to say or add?

PVDaddy, PVStudent's post is NOT nonsense, and he's NOT trying to insult you. Rather, he's trying to drive some SENSE into your THICK SKULL! :dazed:

I don't know why we even bother, but this is my LAST DITCH EFFORT to TRY to drive some sense into your head. I do NOT want you to reply to this, as any reply you provide will inevitably be due to your misunderstanding of the subject matter, full of insults, and just plain wrong, because you REFUSE to try to understand the physics behind all this ...

Re the so-called TAP at the BOTTOM of the swing: Perhaps the reason for your confusion re a TAP versus a SWING is that you don't realize that a gymnastic TAP is more than just a smooth-flowing SWING. It's actually quite an ABRUPT action that's done in a split second. This abrupt action is something that most vaulters and gymnasts learn when they learn how to do a KIP. It's a timing thing. If you don't TAP at exactly the right MOMENT, then your attempt to KIP will fail. However, if done with perfect timing, it's a thing of beauty - your kip will be so easy as to appear and to FEEL almost effortless! I cannot explain it with words in any more depth than this. If you REALLY want to know what a TAP is, then you will have to experience it for yourself. As I said, most vaulters (and ALL gymnasts) know EXACTLY what I'm talking about here.

So once you understand THIS MUCH, then understanding the rest of the so-called TAP at the BOTTOM of the swing becomes much easier to distinguish or characterize. In my view, there is a WHIP during what I call the DOWNSWING and the UPSWING. In fact, almost the entire DOWNSWING might alternately be called a WHIP - I would not disagree with that definition of "WHIP".

This WHIP is not (in my view) a TAP. However, I can understand how some coaches (e.g. Werner and Clymer) might refer to this whipping action as a TAP. I believe that they are characterizing just the very last part of the downswing as the TAP - not the entire downswing. I personally don't feel that this is an abrupt enough action to call it a tap.

Why? Because on the highbar, the stiffness of the bar is SO STIFF that it makes it so that the TAP is easily distinguishable or discernible. Whereas on the PV pole, the softness of the pole - plus the smoothness of the vaulter's swing - makes this WHIP indistinguishable or indiscernible. I think it would take a pole as stiff as a highbar before this whipping action became discernible enough to call it a TAP. However, I think I do understand enough of their rational behind this to be able to understand (and accept) why they might want to call this a TAP.

On the other hand, I don't think you understand even the BASIC gymnastic movements (or apparatus - LOL!), so you are just getting on the Werner/Clymer band-wagon re their so-called tap at the bottom of the swing. You have no depth of understanding of this concept, because you have not personally experienced it - you are only copying what Werner and Clymer had to say about it. You are just using their word "TAP" without knowing what they mean by that word.

That's my personal opinion, for the reasons I've just explained. I'm hopeful that someone else besides PVDaddy can chime in and either agree or disagree with me on this point.

Re the so-called TAP at the TOP of the swing: If you've followed my definitions of what a TAP is and what a WHIP is so far, then the answer to this one should be easy. There is no equivalent ABRUPT action at the top of the swing that could in any way be confused with a so-called TAP. Even more than the long, continual action of a SWING in the bottom half of the vault, there is a long, continual action of EXTENDING in the top half. There is not any ABRUPT action that could be called a TAP. The EXTENSION is a smooth-flowing action (NOT an abrupt action) that is done in unison with the unbending of the pole.

So there is NOT a TAP - in any way, shape, or form - at the TOP of the vault! None! No matter how you try to twist it.

I hope this settles the matter once and for all, but I'm not too hopeful, given the sequence of posts in the past five and a half months. :dazed:

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Re: The TAP at the top of the swing

Unread postby PVDaddy » Wed Apr 16, 2014 9:58 pm

Stated more simply- the tap is merely a way to generate extra energy into the swing from coiled positions of the spine such as going from a hollow to an arched position or from a arched to a hollow position and also to add energy to the apparatus involved that can later be reclaimed to add even more energy to the swing.

So what do we find occurring in the downswing of the pole vault? We have the vaulter going from an arched position to a hollow position adding energy to the swing and stored energy to the pole, that is later reclaimed to add energy to the swing.

So what do we find in the upswing at the Extension of the vault? We have the vaulter going from a hollow position to a arched position adding energy to the swing and stored energy to the pole, that is later reclaimed to add energy to the swing.

Yesterday, I called USA Gymnastics and spoke directly to FIG Technical Committee Member Steve Butcher (who just happens to be a Pole vaulter!) he has personally met Sergey Bubka and Yelena Isinbayeva and he and other members of USA Gymnastics have personally been involved with the training of Stacy Dragila and other American elite vaulters.

Yesterday, I also called World Class Gymnastics Academy in new York and spoke to a very respected Gymnastics Trainer there named Bob Piehler. By chance, he also just happens to be very knowledgeable in the pole vault and became the pole vault trainer of a young man named James Steck. (His incredible story below!)

I asked them what is the definition of a Tap? They both gave the definition and first sentence of this post.
I then asked them "is there a Tap in the downswing of the vault?" They both said "yes, without a doubt!"
I then asked them would you consider the extension at the top of the vault a tapping motion? They both said, although it is not commonly referred to as such I would think that's a fair analogy as the actions and intention are the same.

So what do you say to that Kirk and PVstudent? Now do you think there exist a "Tap" in the downswing of the vault? Now do you think that what occurs at the Extension at the top of the swing is very similar to a tapping motion or meets the basic definition? Forget the proper pole vault term! I already concede that "Extension" is the most exceptable term here in the pole vault community. Is it not the principal and the promotion of those principles and techniques that really matter for moving this sport forward?

Yesterday when I was on the phone with Bob Piehler, I shared with him just how valuable I felt technique was and how I felt the pole vault community could benefit from a gymnastics approach to their training and its finer points and especially the incorporation of training tapping motions into the bottom and top of the swing. He fully agreed and mentioned how Sergey came from a gymnastics background and trained in it at a younger age and how instrumental that was to his success. He then shared his personal story with me about this exact experience he had with a 17 year old student named James.

This is an incredible story of a young man name James Steck from New York, who excelled in Gymnastics (Especially on the high bar, he became the regional high bar champ!) James had High hopes for a Scholarship in Gymnastics. Unfortunately, James sustained a wrist injury that left him unable to compete in the sport he loved and enjoyed. His Gymnastics coach Bob Piehler,who had a pole vault background suggested that James may to still be capable of pole vaulting? Although James had never touched a Pole in his life this is what they accomplished in ten Months! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAiuCmh3Xco Just look at how well he Extends!

Then........https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxUUAMG3FfE

Then.......https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxUUAMG3FfE

Then.......https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8sSn9iozJw

Now James Vaults as a red shirt Freshman at Va Tech and many feel 18 + is well in his sight!

Way to go James! Think maybe we could learn a thing or two from how gymnast employ the Tap? Cmon guys? There's something to be learned here!!!!!!!!!
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Re: The TAP at the top of the swing

Unread postby PVDaddy » Wed Apr 16, 2014 11:08 pm

Kirk, you have no idea what I have seen or experienced In gymnastics? I just happen to come from a High school (Freeland, MI) that happens to have by far the best gymnastics program in the State having one almost to many State championships to count. I have been to there events and have watched them train on a daily basis after school in our gym. Although I was not a gymnast I did many swings on the high bar of the uneven bars and yes it was wood. I had no idea what its internal components were?
They girls showed me how (And how to tap) and they were very impressed how I EASILY swung up and around the bar! For me it was not that hard. Maybe it had something to do with the fact I could (and did often) climb up and down the high rope easily several times or up and down the peg board usually twice as much as the strongest kid in class and still to this day have the pull up record for our School (35 perfect ones).This is not bragging, just facts. I also was the only kid in class who could bench twice my weight.This is not bragging, just facts. You asked and challenged my experience and this is the only reason I state this! Later!

Oh everyone keep, Tapping! The bar is going up! I'm out!
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Re: The TAP at the top of the swing

Unread postby PVstudent » Wed Apr 16, 2014 11:25 pm

Why do you bother Kirk? Your answer to PVdaddy is spot on from a gymnastic perspective!

How do I know!

1. High School Pole Vault Champion (Regional equivalent to USA).
2. High School All-Around Gymnastics Champion.
3. Member of British Universities Gymnastics Championship Team.
4. Regional All-Around Champion Gymnast (Senior Open Level)
5. Coached English Boys Club National Gymnastic Championship Team.
5. Coached from beginners to international standard gymnasts in MAG and WAG (40 years).
6. Coach Educator in Gymnastics for nearly 40 years.

7. Published and undertaken research on the performance of all the apparatus in men and women's gymnastics. Also published a seminal paper on skill learning and motor control in gymnastics. Guess what apparatus was involved ...Horizontal bar! Also was one of the first in the World to research and publish performance data on the sprung floors in gymnastics competitions before FIG standards were established. I do understand a little about the differences between springs made of steel and their interactions with wood laminate. I do know about the bending and energy storage capacities of all types of bars used in gymnastics.

8. Conducted gymnastics equipment testing to ensure the equipment performs to the required FIG standard and subsequently used in Australia for a FIG Gymnastics Competition World Championships.

9. Coached Elite pole-vaulters competing at Olympic Games, World Championships and Commonwealth Games.

10. Currently still coaching real people and preparing them for competition which is the true arena for testing one's knowledge and expertise in coaching.

Talk is cheap PVdaddy.

Show us vaulters, YOU actually have full responsibility for coaching, doing the things you claim here!

If, and when you can do so, I might be less infuriated by your persistent belligerent attitude and ignorance of the topics on which you attempt to be expert.

You have been told and I reiterate Please Stop. Enough is enough!.
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Re: The TAP at the top of the swing

Unread postby PVDaddy » Wed Apr 16, 2014 11:35 pm

One last thing! Prediction: Within 5 years (If we make it that far! Get ready to meet the King soon! I am a much bigger student of this other book and its not btb. Pole vaulting is really not that important in the grand scheme of things) we will see at least 6.20 and 6.30 within 10! I wanted to end at 400 post! :D I don't have much left to offer anyway. Please don't celebrate to hard Kirk, Altius or others? It would be nice to leave on a positive note. Thank you for the motivation to learn as much as I could about this fun, beautiful sport! I wanted to end at 400 post! :rose:
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Re: The TAP at the top of the swing

Unread postby KirkB » Thu Apr 17, 2014 12:11 am

While I commend you on your resourcefulness in contacting some gymnastics experts, I can see that you have not even attempted to absorb a single word that I wrote in my last reply. I can see that I wasted the valuable time I spent writing that, in a LAST DITCH EFFORT to explain to you what a TAP is, and what it isn't.

Furthermore, you have wasted even MORE of my time by posting the 4 vaults of your gymnast cum vaulter - James Steck. I have looked at all 4 of those vids, and I'm sorry to tell you this, but what he's doing is nothing special, and what he's doing is NOT a TAP at the bottom of his vault, nor the top of his vault. You are grasping for proof, but your understanding of the physics of the PV is incorrect!

Furthermore, I have no idea of the exact wording of these conversations you had with these gymnastics experts. I will not take your second-hand interpretation of what you asked them and what they told you as how you described it. Sometimes people hear what they want to hear, and don't hear what they don't want to hear.

You have misquoted people so many times before, that I simply don't trust your ability to comprehend or communicate technical topics without ad libbing in your own two cents worth and getting it wrong. I'm not trying to insult you, I'm simply telling you my stance on anything that you post. YOU HAVE LOST ALL CREDIBILITY WITH ME!

PVDaddy wrote: Stated more simply- the tap is merely a way to generate extra energy into the swing from coiled positions of the spine such as going from a hollow to an arched position or from a arched to a hollow position and also to add energy to the apparatus involved that can later be reclaimed to add even more energy to the swing.

If you were referring to ONLY the gymnastics movement on the highbar, then this sentence is fairly accurate. I personally would not use the term "coiled positions", but the rest of the sentence seems fine to me - except that it doesn't mention the timing or quickness of a what a good tap must have. In the absence of any mention of the timing, that sentence could mean that the entire SWING is a TAP - which of course would be incorrect. I also question whether the term "coiled positions" is your terminology or theirs? It is not a term in my venacular.

PVDaddy wrote: So what do we find occurring in the downswing of the pole vault? We have the vaulter going from an arched position to a hollow position adding energy to the swing and stored energy to the pole, that is later reclaimed to add energy to the swing.

So what do we find in the upswing at the Extension of the vault? We have the vaulter going from a hollow position to a arched position adding energy to the swing and stored energy to the pole, that is later reclaimed to add energy to the swing.

Clearly, you either didn't read or you didn't understand what I wrote in my last post. Your statement about the downswing is ALMOST correct, but (by definition) the downswing ends when the body is straight - not hollowed. And regardless of that minor error, how does your description of a downswing make it a TAP? There is nothing in this statement of yours that distinguishes a SWING from a WHIP or a TAP. :confused:

Your next paragraph is even less convincing. What arched position are you referring to in the EXTENSION? Surely you're not suggesting that a vaulter should intentionally arch his back during his extension, instead of shooting his body upwards in a STRAIGHT (not ARCHED) position?

You are grasping at straws in your arguments, and I find it very difficult to believe that 2 gymnastics experts that are also experienced in the PV event would agree with you that vaulters should strive for an arch at the top of their vaults. If you are now on the Petrov band-wagon, tell me where he states that this is so. Or tell me where Werner or Clymer state that this is so. You're making this up! :dazed:

PVDaddy wrote: I ... spoke to a very respected Gymnastics Trainer there named Bob Piehler. By chance, he also just happens to be very knowledgeable in the pole vault and became the pole vault trainer of a young man named James Steck. (His incredible story below!)

I hate to break this to you, but Steck's story is not as incredible as you may think. He is not the first gymnast to become a pole vaulter. As you already know, there are many, many ELITE vaulters (Steck is not yet an ELITE vaulter) that have taken that route, including Brian Sternberg (WR holder in 1963 from my alma mater - U. Wash; Bubka, Lavillenie; and many more). If you want to read an INCREDIBLE (but sad) story, read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_Sternberg, and then if you're interested, read some of the references at the bottom of the page.

As to the rest of the dialogue you had with your gymnastics/PV experts, I answered this in my opening paragraphs. Your argument remains just that - an argument. You have not swayed me one bit. If they have published any articles or papers on the relationship between gymnastic taps and their PV "equivalents", I will read them and - if they're convincing enough - I will change my opinion on this matter. Until then, your arguments are only arguments with only anecdotal conversations with your sources.

Have you seen a real highbar yet? One made of steel? Have you swung on it yet? Once you get on that journey, let me know what you discover. Until then, your arguments remain unconvincing.

I fail to see what is so incredible about Steck's story. Sternberg's story, and Bubka's story, and Lavillenie's story are all incredible. Although I wish James Steck well, his story is nothing special - from what you've told me about him. He has all the usual flaws of a vaulter with his amount of experienced. If anything, he's progressing at a bit faster rate because of his gymnastics background. So what? He's not tapping at the bottom of his vault, and he's certainly not tapping at the top either!

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There is NOT a TAP at the top of the swing!

Unread postby KirkB » Thu Apr 17, 2014 12:21 am

Sorry, I posted before I read PVStudent's last reply, and PVDaddy's last reply.

I could have saved some time if I had read PVStudent's last post, because I should be NOT be bothering to try to clarify this matter once and for all (because it's a never-ending saga); and if I had only known that PVDaddy would abruptly resign at post #400, I could have and should have saved my breath.

Let's hope we can close this thread now! PLEASE! :dazed:

Sorry to be a skeptic, but I don't think we've heard the last of PVDaddy yet. :confused:

Kirk
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Re: The TAP at the top of the swing

Unread postby Decamouse » Thu Apr 17, 2014 5:22 am

Ever think he/she might be a troll -- Freeland Michigan - according to the Michigan website is not the great power in gymnastics (maybe school changed their name - it is possible) http://www.mhsaa.com/sports/girlsgymnas ... pions.aspx 2005 they did have one girl that was amazing some individual titles -- Grand Ledge seems to be a bigger power

maybe it is all about word usage - technically do you really coil your spin! Bend, flex, arch, curl would seems to be more fitting -- but since he is done posting does it really matter
Plant like crap sometimes ok most times


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