The TAP at the top of the swing

This is a forum to discuss advanced pole vaulting techniques. If you are in high school you should probably not be posting or replying to topics here, but do read and learn.
User avatar
PVDaddy
PV Junkie
Posts: 504
Joined: Wed May 26, 2010 10:56 pm
Expertise: Former High School Vaulter, High School coach, College coach
Lifetime Best: 10.5 Ft
World Record Holder?: Renaud Lavillenie
Favorite Vaulter: Cornelius Warmerdam

Re: The TAP at the top of the swing

Unread postby PVDaddy » Thu Apr 10, 2014 4:55 pm

All I said was that the Markelov was a form of a tapping motion. I never suggested that it was a or the tool for training the vault. So what is your point PVstudent?
However, I do believe it provides examples of how power can be generated while coming out of a coiled position of the spine.
Every jot and every tittle adds up to more than just a little.

User avatar
PVDaddy
PV Junkie
Posts: 504
Joined: Wed May 26, 2010 10:56 pm
Expertise: Former High School Vaulter, High School coach, College coach
Lifetime Best: 10.5 Ft
World Record Holder?: Renaud Lavillenie
Favorite Vaulter: Cornelius Warmerdam

Re: The TAP at the top of the swing

Unread postby PVDaddy » Thu Apr 10, 2014 5:10 pm

And I do not think that I am In a camp of my own by claiming the vaulter has a tremendous abillity to add vertical energy while unbending from the Spine!

again Petrov:

therefore, the combination of the pole's carrying capacity and the athlete's
unbending movement generates an accelerated thrust upwards,
and by the end of the
unbending movement the centroidal axis reaches the maximum vertical speed


However, that is in fact an opinion that I arrived at prior to finding this 2 days ago. Let us all decide based on our own critical thinking?
Every jot and every tittle adds up to more than just a little.

User avatar
PVDaddy
PV Junkie
Posts: 504
Joined: Wed May 26, 2010 10:56 pm
Expertise: Former High School Vaulter, High School coach, College coach
Lifetime Best: 10.5 Ft
World Record Holder?: Renaud Lavillenie
Favorite Vaulter: Cornelius Warmerdam

Re: The TAP at the top of the swing

Unread postby PVDaddy » Fri Apr 11, 2014 1:06 am

LOL I have no idea were PVstudent got the idea that I suggested the Markov for developing this technique? But here is one great stiff pole drill from a short run we also use for developing the ability to generate upward thrust from coming out of the coil at the top. The vaulter should always attempt to bring his legs past his head (Bubkas position is even more exaggerated than this!) from what I call a counter thrust position. This provides maximum range of motion for maximum energy output. Also note the thrusting upward of both legs as the swing leg meets the drive knee. Also note the the laying back of the shoulder and head and the great shoulder rotation at the top. Many good College vaulters fail to get good shoulder rotation at the top! We also like to emphasize a strong bottom hand and top hand push toward the pit while maintaining alignment along the pole as the vaulter moves up the pole prior to release and Flyaway. I am not Speaking for Kyle when I say this (He is a great coach whom I greatly admire and respect! In my opinion one of the best!), but, these are the things I emphasize. Way to go Guys! :yes:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELvvJFNcuEo
Every jot and every tittle adds up to more than just a little.

CoachEric
PV Whiz
Posts: 203
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2012 3:47 pm
Expertise: Former College Vaulter, Current Private Coach for HS and College Athletes
Lifetime Best: 16'
World Record Holder?: Renaud Lavillenie
Favorite Vaulter: Bubka
Contact:

Re: The TAP at the top of the swing

Unread postby CoachEric » Fri Apr 11, 2014 9:25 am

...the vaulter has a tremendous abillity to add vertical energy while unbending from the Spine!


I've tried to refrain from engaing in this discussion, but everyone has been trying to tell you the same thing, and no one seems to be getting through, so I'll give it a go. Ready? Here it is..

WE KNOW!!! The vaulter thrusts the hips up and extends vertically.
IT'S NOT CALLED A TAP!!!


So are we on the same page now?

User avatar
PVDaddy
PV Junkie
Posts: 504
Joined: Wed May 26, 2010 10:56 pm
Expertise: Former High School Vaulter, High School coach, College coach
Lifetime Best: 10.5 Ft
World Record Holder?: Renaud Lavillenie
Favorite Vaulter: Cornelius Warmerdam

Re: The TAP at the top of the swing

Unread postby PVDaddy » Fri Apr 11, 2014 6:21 pm

I am convinced that the main reason the pole vault world was stuck in the mud for twenty years was because far to many coaches were not concerned (especially old school American Coaches) with the smallest of details in regards to technical issues. We got surpassed for this very reason when a brilliant man from Russia and I believe along with a full panel of sports scientist chose to reexamine the vault to see if there was not a better method to skin the cat? This has been my focus and point of emphasis from the very beginning. My motivation has always been only to raise the bar and I would be a liar if I did not confess I have a selfish interest in seeing that be done by an American athlete and to see America once again regain its prominence as a pole vaulting powerhouse. I am convinced also that if we all could collectively take on that same approach this could easily be accomplished.

I come from a different background and perspective than most here. From my perspective pole vaulting is mostly fun. It pales in compare to the amount of suffering an athlete must endure when in the arena of wrestling, boxing or mixed martial arts and its workouts. Unless you have been in a total state of exhaustion from oxygen, water, glycogen and salt deprivation were every single fiber in your body hurts and barely functions and you are so physically and mentally fatigued to the point that you see tunnel vision and stars as the world closes in on you and you can barely remember your name, you will not ever understand what I mean? In this world it is literally the ability to be willing to go through hell and through that fire that separates the winners from the losers. We are a tight community and we all respect one another for life, regardless of our abilities, but, because of that common experience and understanding of that pain that we all had to endure, that bonds us.

But there is a much better way. A way that involves much less pain and suffering. A way with great power, that produces great results. A way that when discovered and perfected actually makes the above mentioned fun. That way is called TECHNIQUE! Technique is not just a simple set of instructions to be taken lightly. Mastering technique involves paying attention to the very smallest of details, because, the smallest of details make all the difference in the world when added together. A compounded difference! Read my tagline. These are not throw away words. Even if the difference is only .1 Meters, it matters, ask Lavellenie? The above mentioned athletes or the soldier in the field while in hand to hand combat understand this all to well. To them the mastering of technique literally means the difference between living or dieing! Trust me, if you ever find yourself in a rear naked choke and someone is squeezing the life out of you, you will care less were you got the technique to escape or who you got it from, or what name they chose to call it?! If you want to be a World Class Pole Vaulter or Coach you had better take the same approach! It is a lifeline and that is how you should view it! QUIT ACTING LIKE THE SPOILED PAMPERED KNOW IT ALL BRAT, that will only learn from others with "Credentials"! Everybody has something of value to offer. Even if there is only one thing new to glean from it, it is worth it. Take it and use it! My Mumma always said to never throw the baby out with the bath water. She was right.


Even Altius said that the pole vault world had better start to take the same approach to instruction and detail that world class gymnastics does. Let me tell you that only telling your vaulter to "extend like an arrow" or to just "thrust the hips and extend vertically" does not cut the mustard. Not even close! Not even by a long shot, if you want any hopes of achieving world class status! Sorry Eric! Have you even been reading through this post to see all of the fine detail and integrated movements required to achieve this action correctly?
You and others wonder why I have gone through so much length and detail to fully describe this action ? I'll tell you? The devil is in the details and every single one is important and hugely significant!

I first heard the word tap as it applies to the vault by Werner http://www.advantageathletics.com/polevault/swing.htm. Later I heard it used by Clymer https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0e1q_59KHBM. Gymnast use the tap as way to generate power out of any coiled position of the spine while arched or hollow in all types of sophisticated moves and especially to create height into release moves or dismounts. I realized that there were many integrated, fine detailed movements required to perform the proper extension at the top of the swing in the vault, that involved more then just the unbending of the spine. I did not feel that the word "extension" properly conveyed this. I felt that if it was ok to use it at the bottom of the swing by experts like Werner or Clymer, why would it not also be ok use it to describe this action at the top of the swing as they do in gymnastics? Also I do not think that the amazing benefit of this integrated action has been properly described or conveyed to the pole vault world anywhere close to the status it deserves.
Every jot and every tittle adds up to more than just a little.

User avatar
KirkB
PV Maniac
Posts: 3550
Joined: Mon May 19, 2008 6:05 pm
Expertise: Former College Vaulter; Former Elite Vaulter; Former Coach; Fan
Lifetime Best: 5.34
Favorite Vaulter: Thiago da Silva
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada

Re: The TAP at the top of the swing

Unread postby KirkB » Fri Apr 11, 2014 10:33 pm

CoachEric wrote:
...the vaulter has a tremendous abillity to add vertical energy while unbending from the Spine!

...
WE KNOW!!! The vaulter thrusts the hips up and extends vertically.
IT'S NOT CALLED A TAP!!!


So are we on the same page now?

I guess we're still on different pages. :(

Back to ignoring PVDaddy's stubborn, narcisistic, pointless drivel ... [sigh] :dazed:

Oh WAIT! PVDaddy is an experienced WRESTLING coach, so we better listen up on how POLE VAULT and GYMNASTICS use the same TAP at the top of the vault, highbar, rings, whatever the apparatus. It's all based on the same scientific principles, so it doesn't matter what we call it!

Besides, his grandfather is a pole vaulter.

Here's a proposal for PVDaddy's new tagline:

"Run. Jump. Full-Body-Coil. Half-Nelson. Tap. Swing. Three-Quarters-Nelson. Another-Tap. Full-Nelson. Negative-Inversion. Shoulder-Rotation. Jot. Tittle. World-Record!" :D

Kirk
Run. Plant. Jump. Stretch. Whip. Extend. Fly. Clear. There is no tuck! THERE IS NO DELAY!

User avatar
PVDaddy
PV Junkie
Posts: 504
Joined: Wed May 26, 2010 10:56 pm
Expertise: Former High School Vaulter, High School coach, College coach
Lifetime Best: 10.5 Ft
World Record Holder?: Renaud Lavillenie
Favorite Vaulter: Cornelius Warmerdam

Re: The TAP at the top of the swing

Unread postby PVDaddy » Sat Apr 12, 2014 12:20 am

:) I Have been giggling for the past hour! Kirk, you do know your sarcastic comments do not phase me any right?
I understand my post was a bit serious. I was trying to make a point about how I feel about the advantage of technique and how I view it. I suppose you took nothing from the post? :(

My question for you is why are you not applying your experience and expertise more coaching kids on a regular basis? :o

I have to be at our home track meet tomorrow at 7 A.M helping run the event. Lucky if my salary covers my gas cost for the long drive there and back.
Sunday I am volunteering my time, on my only day off, in what has been a very busy week opening up our pit so some eager high school kids who have had no other place to practice can have some fun trying to improve.
Every jot and every tittle adds up to more than just a little.

User avatar
KirkB
PV Maniac
Posts: 3550
Joined: Mon May 19, 2008 6:05 pm
Expertise: Former College Vaulter; Former Elite Vaulter; Former Coach; Fan
Lifetime Best: 5.34
Favorite Vaulter: Thiago da Silva
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada

Re: The TAP at the top of the swing

Unread postby KirkB » Sat Apr 12, 2014 12:49 am

PVDaddy wrote: :) I Have been giggling for the past hour!
:D

PVDaddy wrote: I have to be at our home track meet tomorrow at 7 A.M helping run the event. ...
Sunday I am volunteering my time, on my only day off, in what has been a very busy week opening up our pit so some eager high school kids who have had no other place to practice can have some fun trying to improve.

Now THAT'S a constructive use of your time! THAT'S where you can make (and are making) a positive contribution to our sport, and to the lives of the kids that you help! :yes:

Kirk
Run. Plant. Jump. Stretch. Whip. Extend. Fly. Clear. There is no tuck! THERE IS NO DELAY!

CoachEric
PV Whiz
Posts: 203
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2012 3:47 pm
Expertise: Former College Vaulter, Current Private Coach for HS and College Athletes
Lifetime Best: 16'
World Record Holder?: Renaud Lavillenie
Favorite Vaulter: Bubka
Contact:

Re: The TAP at the top of the swing

Unread postby CoachEric » Sun Apr 13, 2014 1:25 am

The above mentioned athletes or the soldier in the field while in hand to hand combat understand this all to well. To them the mastering of technique literally means the difference between living or dieing! Trust me, if you ever find yourself in a rear naked choke and someone is squeezing the life out of you, you will care less were you got the technique to escape or who you got it from, or what name they chose to call it?!


It tuns out, that as a commissioned US Army officer who has deployed to combat zones as a combat arms platoon leader, and as a certified Army combatives instructor, I consider myself an authority on the topic you've raised. You're right, that in a combat situation, a "competitor" should be less concerned about the rules of the scenario. In fact, the instructor who certified me used to constantly remind us that in combat, there are no rules, and techniques like gouging eyes and ripping ears were included in our "syllabus." Though I can't say that this is remotely relevant to training pole vaulters. For example, I might coach a vaulter to stay mentally calm and provide specific and clear coaching cues to elicit an action, while I might be more likely to shout a phrase like "bite him f***ing in the face!" when training a soldier in close quarters combat. One can see how the attitudes of students in these environments might vary.

Regardless of the discipline, accurate language is necessary to facilitate learning. You have advocated a "Tap at the top of the swing." Kirk, Altius, PVStudent, myself, and other experienced vaulters and coaches, who feel compelled to correct your misguided claims on behalf of the PV community, have been trying to explain to you that your "idea" regarding adding energy at the top of the swing, by dropping the shoulders and extending the hips upward is in no way original or different from an already widely understood aspect of the P/B model, or any other model for that matter, and it's not called a tap. (How do you like that for a run-on sentence?) In fact, I'll even give Altius some credit here, and say that it was he who made this concept really click for me in a talk he gave in 2005 in Reno when I was a developing collegiate athlete, and I'm sure he covered it in BTB about a dozen times, as much as it pains me to promote his book. And I'm willing to bet that he got the idea from someone besides you.

Please stop trying to take credit for ideas that are in the public domain. It would be nice to be able to get on this site once in awhile and not see a fresh post in which you've claimed a commonly understood principle as you own idea, or that a completely non-relevant technique (i.e. negative inversion) should be the doctrine that disrupts the establishment. More than that, we just want to explore topics that are relevant to coaching athletes, both for our benefit as coaches and for the benefit of our athletes and the community as a whole.

That said, it is not even your ridiculous ideas that compel myself and others to berate you. As a volunteer PV coach in Texas, I hear plenty of misguided PV "tribal knowledge" from high school level coaches, but I leave them alone. It's your eagerness to antagonize every participant of the community who doesn't agree with your inexperienced evaluation of the event that compels this ridiculous online banter that I find myself drawn into. Even as I write this, I know that I have wasted the time and effort, because I cant change your mind, BUT I JUT CAN'T HELP MYSELF!!!. And I'm sure I'm not the only one.

If you have any fresh topics you'd like to engage in, I'm all ears.

User avatar
altius
PV Maniac
Posts: 2425
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2005 8:27 am
Location: adelaide, australia
Contact:

Re: The TAP at the top of the swing

Unread postby altius » Sun Apr 13, 2014 6:55 am

BUT I JUST CAN'T HELP MYSELF!!!. I suggest you try harder old son. As my old gran used to tell me, "You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make him drink". You have made a valiant effort but unfortunately I feel you will have failed. ;)
Its what you learn after you know it all that counts. John Wooden

User avatar
PVDaddy
PV Junkie
Posts: 504
Joined: Wed May 26, 2010 10:56 pm
Expertise: Former High School Vaulter, High School coach, College coach
Lifetime Best: 10.5 Ft
World Record Holder?: Renaud Lavillenie
Favorite Vaulter: Cornelius Warmerdam

Re: The TAP at the top of the swing

Unread postby PVDaddy » Sun Apr 13, 2014 12:55 pm

I just can't help myself! You insecure control freaks, were treated the same way you treated me form the beginning. Cowards who pile on in groups, I call you all out! This is all that really matters about the EXCELLENT subject that I have promoted along with many others, by far better than any of you insecure, jealous hypocrites more concerned with your perceived status and trying to keep it and making a buck, than the truth and the promotion of excellence to many !

I am not impressed! Altius now that I know what you are, I would NEVER encourage anyone to by your book.

No we have not failed! Just watch! The bar will continue to go up!

Now back to what really matters on this subject that was not promoted here prior, to any great extent before, if so show me the great examples of old post SALESMEN!


After Bubka breaks at the hips and his whip foot shin comes to the top of the pole and he is maintaining pressure on the poles lever (Top hand. Just as he always does from Inverse-C through active-I through L to rock back to invert-I. If he did not the pole would uncoil faster) in that leaned back position (Spine bent) he has additional opportunities to add additional vertical energy to the flyaway and fully exploits them by doing the following:

1) He makes sure his head and shoulders drop back together behind the top arm (ephasis) (The chord of the pole) to serve as a counterweight to help bring the hips and legs up. see saw effect. This also improves his inverted position.

2) As the whip leg meets meets the drive knee from this rocked back position (Spine bent) he forcefully extends the drive leg (Straightens it out) heal skyward along with the whip heal through the hip (powerful muscle group). This adds great inertia to the upward propulsion of the hips and legs.

3) At the same time he forcefully extends the hips (Spine bent) upward by straightening out his spine through the use of his abdomen and back muscles (Also powerful muscle groups) and extends the hip ALL the way to the top arm (It can go no further and he makes FULL use of that range of motion!).

4) Finally he makes full use of the muscles around both shoulders (The last axis of rotation) to straighten the body up along the pole and to bring the hip to his top arm elbow.

ALL 4 OF THESE ACTIONS ALL ADD ADDITIONAL VERTICAL ENERGY TO ONE INTEGRATED SYSTEM AND MUST NOT BE OVERLOOKED!

check it out for yourself (Frames: 10-12) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-UwBaf8f98


IT IS DESCRIPTIVE DETAILED LANGUAGE LIKE THIS, AND THE PROMOTION OF IT, AT THE BEGINNER LEVEL AND BEYOND, THAT MAKES REAL IMPROVEMENT AND SETS NEW STANDARDS !

Every jot and every tittle adds up to more than just a little.

User avatar
PVDaddy
PV Junkie
Posts: 504
Joined: Wed May 26, 2010 10:56 pm
Expertise: Former High School Vaulter, High School coach, College coach
Lifetime Best: 10.5 Ft
World Record Holder?: Renaud Lavillenie
Favorite Vaulter: Cornelius Warmerdam

Re: The TAP at the top of the swing

Unread postby PVDaddy » Sun Apr 13, 2014 1:01 pm

this subject that was not promoted here prior, to any great extent before, if so show me the great examples of old post SALESMEN!
Every jot and every tittle adds up to more than just a little.


Return to “Pole Vault - Advanced Technique”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 12 guests