The TAP at the top of the swing

This is a forum to discuss advanced pole vaulting techniques. If you are in high school you should probably not be posting or replying to topics here, but do read and learn.
User avatar
altius
PV Rock Star
Posts: 2425
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2005 8:27 am
Location: adelaide, australia
Contact:

Re: The TAP at the top of the swing

Unread postby altius » Sun Sep 29, 2013 9:48 pm

Thats what happens when you get old, 2020. Sometimes you forget your own name! But could you please let me have the dates on those comments you found -you clever little fellow - and let me know how you find stuff like that. Send me a pm if necessary - I really would like to know - I have never been able to do it. :crying:

That is the good side of this - unfortunately you have also made it easier for PVDaddy to miss the key issue I was trying to raise with regard the value of the information he is providing and its relevance to the challenge of helping athletes improve the inversion phase of their vault. But such is life. :mad:
Its what you learn after you know it all that counts. John Wooden

User avatar
PVDaddy
PV Follower
Posts: 504
Joined: Wed May 26, 2010 10:56 pm
Expertise: Former High School Vaulter, High School coach, College coach
Lifetime Best: 10.5 Ft
World Record Holder?: Renaud Lavillenie
Favorite Vaulter: Cornelius Warmerdam

Re: The TAP at the top of the swing

Unread postby PVDaddy » Sun Sep 29, 2013 10:32 pm

Or CoachEric:
The issue is that you are trying to reinvent commonly understood technical points and renaming them. No one disputes that the vaulter should extend the hips upward and bring the feet back in line to vertical. I would not call this a tap, and I don't know anyone else who would

Your response

by altius » Sat Sep 28, 2013 7:44 pm

Agree totally with CoachEric. You are obviously an enthusiast but unfortunately you have a tendency to run very enthusiastically in the wrong direction.

Is this an example of what your looking for?

Eric would you call the downswing a "tapping action" as exhibited by Bubka? Some highly respected coaches, much more experienced then me do.

While were on this subject I didn't realize there was a limited use of vocabulary describing various phases of the vault and that words such as downswing, active-I, negative inversion or "Tap" were off limits!? Please provide me with the Pole Vault dictionary or thesaurus.
Every jot and every tittle adds up to more than just a little.

User avatar
PVDaddy
PV Follower
Posts: 504
Joined: Wed May 26, 2010 10:56 pm
Expertise: Former High School Vaulter, High School coach, College coach
Lifetime Best: 10.5 Ft
World Record Holder?: Renaud Lavillenie
Favorite Vaulter: Cornelius Warmerdam

Re: The TAP at the top of the swing

Unread postby PVDaddy » Sun Sep 29, 2013 10:57 pm

Oh, I almost forgot. I like to term coming out of the "Downswing" or coming out of the "Upswing" (I know it's against the pole vault laws to separate the two) as coming out of a "full body coil" because, I believe it to be a full body effort. Please don't turn me into the pole vault cop (who is he anyway?????). I might get "Arrested"!
Every jot and every tittle adds up to more than just a little.

User avatar
PVDaddy
PV Follower
Posts: 504
Joined: Wed May 26, 2010 10:56 pm
Expertise: Former High School Vaulter, High School coach, College coach
Lifetime Best: 10.5 Ft
World Record Holder?: Renaud Lavillenie
Favorite Vaulter: Cornelius Warmerdam

Re: The TAP at the top of the swing

Unread postby PVDaddy » Sun Sep 29, 2013 11:23 pm

That being said, may I please make amends for some words I have used in some of my previous post incorrectly. I have on numerous post referred to the top hand as the "fulcrum", when in fact the fulcrum is the butt of the pole in the box. I should have said, "out at the end of the" lever". When referring to the downswing (reverse-C) position,I called that a "hollow" position when in fact gymnast call that an Arch and the upswing Hollow. I apologize for my misuse of these terms.
Every jot and every tittle adds up to more than just a little.

User avatar
PVDaddy
PV Follower
Posts: 504
Joined: Wed May 26, 2010 10:56 pm
Expertise: Former High School Vaulter, High School coach, College coach
Lifetime Best: 10.5 Ft
World Record Holder?: Renaud Lavillenie
Favorite Vaulter: Cornelius Warmerdam

Re: The TAP at the top of the swing

Unread postby PVDaddy » Mon Sep 30, 2013 1:27 am

Anyway Altius, I do believe that I understand your major points which have been the same points you have been making since I have been on PVP and that is to not confuse your students with terms that they may not understand (although a set of terms is needed to communicate effectively) but to show them through doing. I agree with this. I do not consider my post here in the advanced forum as coaching kids, but as an opportunity to exchange thoughts and ideas with other advanced coaches, students and athletes to gain a better understanding of what is and what is not good technique. It seems to me you do not think of this as a worthy quest and I must respectively disagree. How can we as coaches teach our vaulters what good technique is if we as coaches don't even know what that is and are not confident in what it is we are teaching? We can't even agree on when, how, or if a vaulter should pull during the vault? When I first came to PVP I had know idea as to the correct answer to that question and it became clear to me that many others were confused as well. So I determined that the only way to find out the answer to these questions was from a scientific and analytic view of the vault through yes observations of what I saw the best in the world were doing and through research of what other experts in the field were saying. I then formulated my own viewpoint on this subject, not based on what they had to say, but based on if my own observations and critical thinking of if what they had to say, made sense to me? This has always been my mode of operation and my way of seeking out the truth on ANY subject that interested me. I have received criticism by expressing my viewpoints on here from a point of confidence and because I have no great proven track record as a coach and I know that. Obviously I am not a follower and I make no apologies for that.

Now for your other main point and I believe this point and the first point just about sums up what you are all about here on PVP. That is that all of your technical knowledge about the vault does no body any good if you do not share it with others through a technical model through which they can understand. In other words show me some proof? That is were the rubber meets the road right? Can you put your thoughts into action? That is were you are light years ahead of me in experience, as I am but a newby as a coach and I greatly respect your accomplishments. I do not completely know the answer to that, but I do feel my search for the truth has finally put me in a place to find out? Does that sum up what you are saying? Did i get it right?

Now to use some of Altius and others workable models for teaching. Honestly I FINALLY have reached a point were I have satisfied My own technical research on the vault and workable models is all that interest me now. My ramblings are over. Somebody please direct me to the workable models section. I promise to make no comments until I experience them for myself and that is going to take a lot of time.
Every jot and every tittle adds up to more than just a little.

PVstudent
PV Pro
Posts: 260
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 10:53 am
Location: South Australia

Re: The TAP at the top of the swing

Unread postby PVstudent » Mon Sep 30, 2013 1:57 am

PV Daddy could you please just stop trying to write in the advanced section on topics about which you do not have the knowledge, experience, understanding, familiarity with the world wide lexicon of pole vault coaching practitioners or the written communication skills to avoid the mess you are creating.

The questions being tackled are worthy ones!

But it is your pugnacious pontification, confused understanding of jargon, inaccurate interpretation of your observations of a limited sampling of pole vaulters in real life action, blindness to the notion that what you observe may not be as important as many of the things you have not recognised... (do I need to go on) that simply does not give you any credibility.

Arrogant assertions in regard to the creation of an idiosyncratic personal lexicon, for which widely accepted and understood terms already exist, and the ageist attitude you display in the invective you inject into your responses to respondent to this and other threads is not acceptable.

Your commentary and paper thin explanation of the relevance of the "gymnastic tap swing" in pole vaulting is just mere bilge water!

It is confused, you admit you got the terminology wrong, and you have only just realized that pendular swings in pole vault have a local (at the hand Grips) and a remote (pole tip location in the planting box) axis and that both must be simultaneously considered in pole vault swinging.

You are discussing "tap swing" in pole vault and you have only just realized this!

This does not fill me with confidence about what you know of "gymnastic tap swings and different types of tap swings."

Do you have any experience of coaching and working with gymnasts who train for years to acquire the ability level to be able to perform the very advanced "gymnastic "tap" swing types" you refer us to?

The misuse of the examples and the implicit assumption you make that they are directly applicable to pole vault makes me very suspicious as to the credibility I can place on even your understanding and knowledge of the 'Gymnastic Tap Swing".

Why do you implicitly assume that the hand pivot supports from which a gymnast swings and that the symmetrical arm and symmetrical leg swing in a fundamental gymnastics tap swing directly transfers to the assymetrical arm and assymetrical leg motion at the start of the pole vaulter's swing?

Gymnastics "Tap" Swing on the rings is different to those performed on the parallel and horizontal bars.

Which of these swing types has the most direct relevance to pole vault?

Rope swinging tap swings might have some similarities to swing type in pole vault. What are the similarities and what are the differences?

Clear hip circle to handstand into immediate repetition clear hip circle or alternatively clear hip circle into handstand pirouette have direct transferability because of "similar elements" in meeting the performance demand of the final inversion and spiral turn in pole vault.

Compared to the pole vault in which the pole is recoiling the horizontal bar also recoils to a small extent as the gymnast is projected due to the circular motion angular momentum transfer and conservation by the gymnast.

Why and how is it that the recoiling pole acting on the vaulter and the vaulter acting on it does not use the same mode of mechanical energy transfer as occurs from the horizontal bar?

Why for example are gymnastic "felge type" type actions on rings and parallel bars directly relevant to the swing of the pole vaulter that occurs towards the end of the pole recoil phase ?

Answering these sorts of questions for yourself before you try to confuse us with your dogmatic assertions and blatant ageist knee jerk responses to PVP people who cumulatively possess answers to these question relevant to pole vault technique.

Respondents have empirically demonstrated that their answers are not just "pie in the sky" through their real life actions and results obtained in coaching and performing the pole vault.

If you want to contribute my advice is write about what you are doing. Show us the videos of your vaulters and yourself in coaching them. Ask questions about the stuff that is "real" for you and your vaulters. What is the latest challenge you and the vaulter's are trying to overcome?

This approach will give you credibility and your learning and that of the vaulters you work with be given the support of the PVP community.

At the moment, as we say in Australia "Pull you head in mate and get on with the job! Stop trying to teach us elders how to suck eggs!"

Just remember PV Daddy, oldies, because they have sucked eggs all their lives have survived because they can smell an infertile or a rotten egg from a mile away!

If you want to join the nest then at least be refreshing and not cause a stink by presenting us with pretty rotten and mostly irrelevant infertile ideas!
Every new opinion at its starting, is precisely a minority of one!

User avatar
PVDaddy
PV Follower
Posts: 504
Joined: Wed May 26, 2010 10:56 pm
Expertise: Former High School Vaulter, High School coach, College coach
Lifetime Best: 10.5 Ft
World Record Holder?: Renaud Lavillenie
Favorite Vaulter: Cornelius Warmerdam

Re: The TAP at the top of the swing

Unread postby PVDaddy » Mon Sep 30, 2013 11:24 am

Sorry Pv Student, not going waste my time with you. I do believe what I have posted is accurate.
Every jot and every tittle adds up to more than just a little.

User avatar
altius
PV Rock Star
Posts: 2425
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2005 8:27 am
Location: adelaide, australia
Contact:

Re: The TAP at the top of the swing

Unread postby altius » Mon Sep 30, 2013 7:53 pm

Unfortunately Pvdaddy you have now reached a point where it is clear that you do not know enough to understand what pvstudent is presenting - anymore than you would be able to understand Roman if he explained his ideas to you - although admittedly his English still needs improving.

However it would be sad to lose an enthusiast such as yourself so I suggest that you try to arrange to spend a month or so with one of the best coaches in the USA - there are several to choose from - and discover what the process of coaching actually looks like.

i suspect that if you continue to dump on pvstudent, or anyone else for that matter, I suspect that Becca will close this - and perhaps you -down.

Incidentally while you are correct that 'doubledutch' is a term used in skipping, it is also used in English to categorise any attempt at speaking a language that cannot be understood by anyone but the speaker.
Its what you learn after you know it all that counts. John Wooden

charlie
PV Whiz
Posts: 235
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 11:36 am
Location: fitzgerald,georgia

Re: The TAP at the top of the swing

Unread postby charlie » Mon Sep 30, 2013 9:18 pm

If you run with LIFT, all that other tap stiff automaticly happens. Come to south Georgia and I will give you TONS of examples!!!!!

User avatar
altius
PV Rock Star
Posts: 2425
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2005 8:27 am
Location: adelaide, australia
Contact:

Re: The TAP at the top of the swing

Unread postby altius » Mon Sep 30, 2013 10:08 pm

Please Charlie -dont go there - unless of course you are prepared to put up film of your kids doing what you say they should be doing! I hope you realise that South Georgia in Antarctica is closer to us than South Georgia in the USA.

Anyway you are getting in the way of an argument that has become rambunctious. Not sure if that is the right word but I have always wanted to use it.
Its what you learn after you know it all that counts. John Wooden

User avatar
PVDaddy
PV Follower
Posts: 504
Joined: Wed May 26, 2010 10:56 pm
Expertise: Former High School Vaulter, High School coach, College coach
Lifetime Best: 10.5 Ft
World Record Holder?: Renaud Lavillenie
Favorite Vaulter: Cornelius Warmerdam

Re: The TAP at the top of the swing

Unread postby PVDaddy » Mon Sep 30, 2013 10:26 pm

In closing, The pole vault presents two excellent "Tapping action" opportunities for the vaulter to generate additional active energy to the swing and inversion while in the coiled positions of Reverse-C and Inverted-C. Pulling during the downswing destroys the TAP. Pulling during the upswing, as your feet pass the chord, assist it. This tapping action is a full body action while going through and out of the coil and is the same action that gymnast perform on the high bar during the downswing, upswing and dismount. I am convinced Bubka learned these actions very early on in his gymnastic training years and carried them forward to the vault and are of paramount importance to the vaulter for generating maximum energy of the swing, inversion and fly-away. It is of no importance what term you chose to describe this beneficial action, but, only that you perfect it, and exploit it, to full advantage.
Every jot and every tittle adds up to more than just a little.

User avatar
coachjvinson
PV Whiz
Posts: 239
Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2011 3:58 pm
Expertise: I have never recognized the concept of limits-I think an athlete who accepts limits is dead-Bubka
Lifetime Best: 0
World Record Holder?: Renaud Lavillenie
Favorite Vaulter: COOP 4.55m and Mondo

Re: The TAP at the top of the swing

Unread postby coachjvinson » Tue Oct 01, 2013 12:24 am

RE: pushing back out during the swing?

PVDaddy wrote:The Gymnast and the vaulter both bend at the knee to raise their feet while allowing the chest, torso, and hips to pass between their hands and feet into a HOLLOWED out full body stretch position (The full body coil)...


Respectfully, this is an example of the misuse of terminology in your posts... you have utilized the term "HOLLOW" in place of "ARCHED";further, you are supporting concepts which are incorrect and which have the potential to cause harm...

00.02
~V
PURSUITOF2016


Return to “Pole Vault - Advanced Technique”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests