pushing back out during the swing?

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Re: pushing back out during the swing?

Unread postby ADTF Academy » Mon May 20, 2013 8:45 am

altius wrote:The close relationship between these three activities - and the fact that this relationship is clearly understood by the athletes - along with the close time links involved - means that transfer of learning is more likely than not to occur.

The key point is that athletes do not need to understand they should pull - all you do is give them plenty of jumps - up to 40 - from six steps stiff pole over gradually raised bars. The brain/body nexus (marvellous thing that it is) sorts the problem out without conscious thought or the need for any cues and the athlete will begin to the right things in the right sequence without any help from you. In the same way that it will do the right things when you ask athletes to swing on a rope to get their feet as high as they can up the rope.



I think the key to these comments is Reps and allow the athletes to learn partly on their own. To many are coaching with their mouths instead of with their eyes and ears. Don't tell the athlete what they should be feeling ask them what did you feel. Why did you go crocked, why did you flag out basically ask probing questions so they learn. This is also a great way to identify what they are really thinking. You may say ok Turn Left, but in their brain right sounds so much better. The whole time your saying turn left turn left and they are going turn right. Till they say well I thought turn right your just pulling your hair out. Perception of the athlete is dangerous and is why to many coaches talking to one athlete can be so dangerous. For some time now so many are attempting to program movements that should be automatically done. We just need to get out of the way and allow them to be done.


I sure hope this isn't lost in the inner fighting over who is right and who is wrong. Are you teaching something that is automatic... Are you going against automatic....

I constantly tell my athletes the goals of a cue is to stop you from doing something you shouldn't be doing. To keep you on the right path and your brain from wondering to things that won't help you. The things we do correct should be happening without thinking.


Less coaching with your mouths more coaching with your ears.

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Re: pushing back out during the swing?

Unread postby PVDaddy » Mon May 20, 2013 11:33 am

Just a simple question Altius. I wanted to try to employ this technique today in practice on the high bar I just bult myself last week for the kids, but ,won't be able to because you refuse to describe it. Not going to play the game hide an seek with you Altiu. I have know Idea what you are trying to imply "By being clever" but, can only say sometime you are way to assuming.
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Re: pushing back out during the swing?

Unread postby PVDaddy » Mon May 20, 2013 12:00 pm

Kyle Ellis:I
have also seen Petrov teaching drills to his athletes to work on this, and in his article on IAAF he clearly talks about it!! So do I trust the people on here who see what they want to see, no because I was open to every possible theory. Pulling, leg whipping, bottom arm pressure, etc. I was lucky enough to still be vaulting and get to experiment with all of these things, and it was so clear and easy to understand what action was correct. It also came very natural, unlike the other methods which I had to really mentally over ride to perform. And I kicked myself because it was right there in Petrovs article the whole time!


So should we trust Altius "Epiphany" while on a ski trip with Agapit or Petrov's IAAF article and drills as to whether the bottom arm sholud be extended forward through the downswing?
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Re: pushing back out during the swing?

Unread postby grandevaulter » Mon May 20, 2013 1:51 pm

I put a lot of stock in the developments that Altius made with Roman on that ski trip. I would also suggest that reading the "Repent " thread holds pertinent information to this subject. Solid technique holds up under pressure. So, AAAARgh after the plant is good, but all of the specific drills performed hundreds of times that are manifested with the instinct is what holds up in the big meet. (beginner, intermediate or advanced).

I watched a high school girl from another team perform a vintage Cornelius Warmerdam, bottom hand slide, powerful swing up and over. ( I doubt if she ever watched the Warmerdam vids) In her warm ups she was taking off the wrong foot and each and every jump was different. Instincts seemed to be her technique. However consistency was her weak suit. My girl with less athletic ability and less apparent instinct beat her on misses. Specific drills and feedback to her have been key. After the kids do it correctly, I'll ask; " Did you feel that ?"

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Re: pushing back out during the swing?

Unread postby vaultman18 » Mon May 20, 2013 3:20 pm

PVDaddy wrote:Just a simple question Altius. I wanted to try to employ this technique today in practice on the high bar I just bult myself last week for the kids, but ,won't be able to because you refuse to describe it. Not going to play the game hide an seek with you Altiu. I have know Idea what you are trying to imply "By being clever" but, can only say sometime you are way to assuming.



So let me get this straight...Alan puts his blood, sweat, tears, health and money in to writing the books, produce the DVDs to compliment the book for (those of us who cannot read) :o . Yet you want him to answer every basic question you have about drills that are already in the book and on the DVD? Why if he chooses not to answer you do you think he is being clever or playing a game? Why should his knowledge be free? It wasn't free to him it wasn't free to me and many others. In my opinion there are some very good resources on the board or at least have been over the years for free including Alan's contribution. So why not be thankful for what you do have> I guess it is human nature to take more and more. So I think the real point is if you want the information buy the book and dvd...if you already have them then why not use them?

But I am a good sport and haven't contributed to PVP in a while so here you go...The "long swings" that I believe Alan is referring to, are not on a high bar but on an stiff pole with low grip onto the pad. The low grip is important to provide plenty of pole speed, you do not want any stall in this drill. The goal is to swing with a long body and trail leg and to land as deep as possible in the pit. You can slowly raise grip as the take off and swing improve, most athletes start to master this pretty quickly. You want the grip just high enough for them to be able to swing with long body and trail leg and not need to tuck to finish the inversion or pole cover. Once they are proficient add turn to the belly and go for as much distance as possible. Warning if your pit is short you may want to add a pad on the back, don't see it being an issue for HSer's but I had a kid hyper extend his knee from 2L because he went off the back. So be mindful of that. I hope this clears it up for you. Cheers

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Re: pushing back out during the swing?

Unread postby altius » Mon May 20, 2013 7:20 pm

Thanks vaultman18. I find it strange that someone like PVDaddy who has had so much to say on the complexities of pole vaulting - indeed has been adding to those complexities - did not understand what the term 'long swings' meant. Given that this drill is shown on the dvd in the context of learning to invert, this is strange or just obtuse. But there you go, you can't please everyone. Perhaps another apology is forthcoming but since I didn't get one from from Coacheric re his untrue claim, I don't expect one here.
Last edited by altius on Tue May 21, 2013 1:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: pushing back out during the swing?

Unread postby PVDaddy » Mon May 20, 2013 11:27 pm

Vaultman 18:
Alan puts his blood, sweat, tears, health and money in to writing the books, produce the DVDs to compliment the book for (those of us who cannot read) . Yet you want him to answer every basic question you have about drills that are already in the book and on the DVD?


You make a valid point here. I actually did purchase Altius book back in 2010 when he suggested it and have read it and his DVD later and have watched it at least 3 times. My son has since loaned both of these to a friend and I currently do not have access to them but that was not the perceived dilema. Thank-you for taking the time to explain the drill (I am familiar with it) I thought it was something new.

Altius:
In fact we are now improving the ability of athletes do just that by using the simple sequence - High Bar whip swings/ straight to long swings to land on the back first(then the left side)/then to jumping from eight steps over a bar. The is precisely the sequence we used with our group on sunday morning


As I understand it Altius has been employing new techniques with a coach he described as a technical genius. My interpretation of his above statement was that this was a new training technique? That's it.
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Re: pushing back out during the swing?

Unread postby PVDaddy » Tue May 21, 2013 12:36 am

You are also correct that I did interpret this as a high bar drill and that you landed on the pad from the high bar. I was just trying to get clarification on how the drill was performed as it sounded to me like something new.
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Re: pushing back out during the swing?

Unread postby altius » Tue May 21, 2013 1:05 am

"As I understand it Altius has been employing new techniques with a coach he described as a technical genius. My interpretation of his above statement was that this was a new training technique? That's it."

There is no technical genius and no new drills - at least any that improve on what we are doing. Not sure where you got that idea from. We have merely simplified and clarified our methods to match our understanding of the Petrov model.

What has happened in that when I returned to coaching late last year I realised that in my earlier incarnation I could take a lot of things for granted. I had a stable squad with an established culture and methods so that when young athlete needed to learn something new I could often get away with saying "Go and watch SO and SO" - I did not have to spell it out. However when I went to the US to do clinics, "So and So" wasn't there, so I did have to spell things very carefully.

When I returned to coaching here there was a similar problem because there were no longer any senior athletes I could point out as models - so I had to start spelling things out again. Although here it should be said that Declan and Kurtis are rapidly progressing to the point where they will be great models - they already are in pretty well all the drills - including long swings! The coaches in place were happy about this because they felt they had been treading water for a while. Now we are all on the same page and beginning to rebuild squad numbers.

Buy a new copy of the book and dvd - it will save a lot of misunderstanding about my philosophy and methods.
Its what you learn after you know it all that counts. John Wooden

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Re: pushing back out during the swing?

Unread postby PVDaddy » Tue May 21, 2013 1:13 pm

Altius
: If anyone is interested, my good friend John Gormley, a technological genius as well as being a highly experienced vault coach, has posted a clip on Utube which shows some stills and film of a couple of young - 15 year old - Adelaide pole vaulters competing in their National Championships in Perth.
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Re: pushing back out during the swing?

Unread postby vaultman18 » Tue May 21, 2013 3:43 pm

PVDaddy wrote:Altius
: If anyone is interested, my good friend John Gormley, a technological genius as well as being a highly experienced vault coach, has posted a clip on Utube which shows some stills and film of a couple of young - 15 year old - Adelaide pole vaulters competing in their National Championships in Perth.


Nothing new there...Gromley is a co author of BTB. I believe the "technological genius" is referring to his ability to post pics and vids online. Not new pole vault technique.

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Re: pushing back out during the swing?

Unread postby altius » Tue May 21, 2013 8:58 pm

Absolutely correct Vaultman18. But it seems that some folk are still/always looking for a magic pill - or in this case a magic drill - instead of just getting on with the job of motivating their athletes to do the repetitive practice of the basic drills needed to master elements of the vault. However it is just possible that PVDaddy hopes to find that a genius has been assisting me because he can then write off my own knowledge and experience. A bit paranoid I know - but no more so than him accusing me of refusing to share 'the magic drill!".

Nothing better represents my methods than the clip of Isinbayeva training in Formia at the end of the BTB dvd. Here you see her doing simple drills -and I make this point on the clip - that even a beginner can undertake and master.

In fact I have come to the conclusion that the only difficult element of the Petrov Bubka technical model for most folk to master is the second part of the inversion phase in which the hips are punched up and the shoulders driven towards the pad (and that is a pretty crude description of what happens). And that is only difficult because it requires that all of the previous elements of run/plant/free take off and swing have been well executed. However even here there is some leeway because it is clear that although Kurtis does not take off efficiently he does still manage to execute the inversion phase pretty well - as is obvious for the film that John posted for me.

Note that John is a true genius - in the US he would have PhDs coming out of his ears. His contribution to the books was invaluable. In fact they probably could not have been produced without his help. He did beautiful drawings for the first edition and great clear diagrams for both. He provided a great sounding board for my ideas and wrote a comprehensive chapter on gymnastics and the vault for the second edition, but the book essentially derived from my own experiences as a professional educator, a very successful practical coach of the event, a wide knowledge of teaching and coaching many sports, and a student of pretty well everything.
Its what you learn after you know it all that counts. John Wooden


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