pushing back out during the swing?

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Re: pushing back out during the swing?

Unread postby PVDaddy » Fri May 10, 2013 9:55 pm

KIRK, I would like to post a before and after video in the video section to show their transformation of technigue since we started training (its only been a little over a month). They all had low pole carries, poor running technique and very poor plants so we started with that. They are running with the pole much better and planting much better, especially on the last 3 steps. I learned a lot from Mr. Johnson about mid-mark and how that really is the key mark for not taking off under and we focused on that from the beginning. Fortunately we are not having a big problem with taking off under. At least with Mich (he is my best student). We then focused on planting tall and especially getting the bottom hand over the head. They are finally starting to do that. We then focused on chest penetration through the arms into elasticity. It's getting better but still needs much work. Having problem developing a good whip and unfortunately we don't have access to a high bar.I stress the importance of that every day and am trying to employ a bit of your jump to the split idea with emphasis on the drive knee. Now that their bottom hand is starting to come back over their head I have just recently been working on forward extension of it against the body coil on just the last practice. I will let you know how this theory effects their whip speed here in the real world. If it kills it, like you say, of course I will immediately disband it and man up here with the result.
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Re: pushing back out during the swing?

Unread postby KirkB » Sat May 11, 2013 12:23 am

:yes:

Sounds good to me!

Nice post! Seriously.

PVDaddy wrote: Now that their bottom hand is starting to come back over their head I have just recently been working on forward extension of it against the body coil on just the last practice. I will let you know how this theory effects their whip speed here in the real world. If it kills it, like you say, of course I will immediately disband it and man up here with the result.

On this one point, it sounds like you're thinking of telling your vaulters to do something with their bottom arm. You know my advice on that, but I also suggest that you listen to ADTF's advice. In case you're not aware, he's the coach of Mark Hollis - ranked #3 in 2011 and #5 in 2012 in the USA. PR is 5.75 (18-10.25").

He's an active coach that really, really knows his stuff. Heck, I'd take his advice over my advice any day of the week! Pay attention to him - he's patiently spending his valuable time trying to explain things to you that are important technical concepts! His advice on PVP may be free, but it's priceless! :idea:

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Run. Plant. Jump. Stretch. Whip. Extend. Fly. Clear. There is no tuck! THERE IS NO DELAY!

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Re: pushing back out during the swing?

Unread postby PVDaddy » Sat May 11, 2013 2:31 am

ADTF said:
I have never heard Walker or Renaud promote a Tuck and Shoot.... Has anyone or is this just another example of someone making up an argument so they can sound correct.


I did not say that Walker or Renuad were trying to promote a Tuck and Shoot. I said I was not trying to promote that.

ADTF:
There are a lot of things that occur post takeoff. That is very general. I would said the timing of fully loaded can change significantly from 1 vaulter to the next


ADTF: Would you not agree that the pole/vaulter system has been fully loaded (The completion of penetration) at the time the bottom hand moves back over the head at about 12 oclock and the whip leg begins it decent? Can you describe the position of the vaulter when penetration is complete better than this?

ADTF
I don't even know what your trying to say... Forward pressure than later forward pressure in line with the pole. But not blocking out arm extension. If I was an athlete I would be beyond confused with these generalist remarks on what you want from the athlete. To press or not to press. To lock out or not to lock out. Sorry your way of trying to make a point just didn't work


I cant find were i used that phrase as you put it? Let's see whay I did say?

ME:
This is a "forward "
pressure and does not begin until after the Pole/Vaulter system has been fully loaded (Bottom hand over head) "After" penetration. It is not a perpendicular pressure to the pole but a forward pressure in line with the pole (The direction it naturally wants to go)


ADTF:
If the pressure/extension is not timed up with the bending of the pole due to the continuous forces being applied on the pole IE Torque generated during the swing than any additional forces applied that gets the body out of ideal alignment will cause unwanted effects


So yes this forward pressure is not the main reason the pole is bending at all but, this forward pressure is working against the whip leg (more appropriately stated as working to assist the whip leg pressure and force and speed through the whole body coil.) and is moving and applying forward force with the pole. It certainly is not hurting its bend? I am saying that this technique increases the torque generated during the swing!
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Re: pushing back out during the swing?

Unread postby ADTF Academy » Sat May 11, 2013 5:21 pm

KirkB wrote:On this one point, it sounds like you're thinking of telling your vaulters to do something with their bottom arm. You know my advice on that, but I also suggest that you listen to ADTF's advice. In case you're not aware, he's the coach of Mark Hollis - ranked #3 in 2011 and #5 in 2012 in the USA. PR is 5.75 (18-10.25").

He's an active coach that really, really knows his stuff. Heck, I'd take his advice over my advice any day of the week! Pay attention to him - he's patiently spending his valuable time trying to explain things to you that are important technical concepts! His advice on PVP may be free, but it's priceless! :idea:

Kirk



I actually do not coach Mark Hollis anymore. He moved on after the 2011 season. I work mainly with Mary Saxer only now and some other athletes on the side. I appreciate your comments, but everyones points are valid we just all add our our input to topics.

It's up to readers and coaches to filter thru all the Junk and figure out what works best for them.

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Re: pushing back out during the swing?

Unread postby ADTF Academy » Sat May 11, 2013 5:27 pm

PVDaddy wrote:
So yes this forward pressure is not the main reason the pole is bending at all but, this forward pressure is working against the whip leg (more appropriately stated as working to assist the whip leg pressure and force and speed through the whole body coil.) and is moving and applying forward force with the pole. It certainly is not hurting its bend? I am saying that this technique increases the torque generated during the swing!



From the basic sounds of what your saying I would agree if directed correctly however how many vaulters can actually do that?


To many that attempt to do any movements near described most times do it either overboard, in the wrong direction or at the wrong time which harms their swing more than helps it. My simple point is the topics and movements are possible if perfected, but the damage that could be created if done incorrectly may be worst than if it didn't exists till ready.

People tend to read things and think it must be done. The point is the progression to movements is sometimes more valuable that the movement itself. How can you teach the movement in a progressive manner that it appears over time and when needed when the athlete's skill level matches up. Thinking of it like gymnastics are the things we teach level 1 skills or level 10 skills. To many are attempting level 10 skills before they can do level 4 movements correctly.

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Re: pushing back out during the swing?

Unread postby PVDaddy » Sat May 11, 2013 10:30 pm

I wrote:

So yes this forward pressure is not the main reason the pole is bending at all but, this forward pressure is working against the whip leg (more appropriately stated as working to assist the whip leg pressure and force and speed through the whole body coil.) and is moving and applying forward force with the pole. It certainly is not hurting its bend? I am saying that this technique increases the torque generated during the swing!


ADTF:
From the basic sounds of what your saying I would agree if directed correctly however how many vaulters can actually do that?

Very good question! Honestly I do not know the answer to that, but, I think I will find out over time with my vaulters?

This whole question about what the bottom arm should do after penetration has showed me two very enlightening things and that is after examining videos of elite vaulters, no two vaulters do it exactly alike and many times the same vaulter does not perform it the same way on each vault! Either this is because they have not been taught a consistent method ( It seems that this is very well supported by the fact that I am hearing from so many here to just let the bottom hand do what it needs to and don't coach it) or the vaulter has changed his technique (IE Walker) or that every vault is a one off (Altius) and the vaulter must perform a different bottom arm action to adjust to the different variations of the take-off which supports the above philosophy of the coaches? But, is this not true with the other elements of the vault as well? Don't we try to coach them to on ideal standard?
I am driven by the notion that there must be one best way to utilize the bottom arm under ideal conditions. Is it not the goal to always TRY to acieve the 'Ideal" vault whatever our method may be? Thus, I am continuously lead back to my model-Bubka and his first 6 Meter vault. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-UwBaf8f98

ADTF:
To many that attempt to do any movements near described most times do it either overboard, in the wrong direction or at the wrong time which harms their swing more than helps it. My simple point is the topics and movements are possible if perfected, but the damage that could be created if done incorrectly may be worst than if it didn't exists till ready.


ADTF, I see your point and it is well taken, but, what I am afraid of as a coach is that in the process of not teaching these finer details from the very beginning is that my vaulters will develop bad habits and a set way of doing things and it will be much more difficult to develop them after the fact. That being said I do realize that it is very possible to vault and to vault quite high without the a forward extension (with pressure) of the bottom hand (Many are). But is it possible to vault as high as Bubka did without doing this? Are my vaulters able to vault with ideal technique or as high as they are capable without doing this? Like your above quote states any element or movement we teach as coaches runs the risk of our vaulters misinterpreting our meaning and the vaulter performing that movement in the wrong direction and at the wrong time. Sergey said that "the best vaulters are the educated vaulters"! He said that his mind works like a computer or a movie camera were he can see the entire vault in his mind. At our last practice I told the Kids; "If you cannot see the entire vault, from the very first step to landing on the pad, then, as a coach I am wasting my time with you. If you cannot see the entire vault down to the finest details in your mind eye then how the heck do you expect to perform it correctly under real conditions? You think your just gonna get lucky and perform all the correct intricate movements a great vault requires? Good luck! In order for the body to achieve it, the mind has got to first perceive it and know it! There is no way in heck i'm gonna be able to help you in a piece meal fashion by telling you to do this or do that? You are gonna have to know it yourself and you are your best coach!" All my kids have Sergeys first 6 Meter vault stored in their favorites on these new "Smart phones". I tell them to watch it and learn it as often as they are able.

Why is the use of the bottom arm have to be so special and handled with a hands off approach? Is it because there is so much confusion and different theories as to what the bottom hand should be doing? It seems to me the real world and the very differences of opinion here and everywhere have certainly proven this to be a fact? It's as if most have thought I really don't Know, therefore I will leave it alone. This is the best approach if you don't know, but what should you do if you feel you do? As a coach I am willing to run the risk in finding out if I am correct. I suppose many think I am running the risk of injuring my vaulters or ruining them in the process? I am not convinced that I am not running the same risk by not, and I believe all coaches run the same risk with so many different techniques.

ADTF:
People tend to read things and think it must be done. The point is the progression to movements is sometimes more valuable that the movement itself. How can you teach the movement in a progressive manner that it appears over time and when needed when the athlete's skill level matches up. Thinking of it like gymnastics are the things we teach level 1 skills or level 10 skills. To many are attempting level 10 skills before they can do level 4 movements correctly.


Like everything you have had to say this makes great sense. Most of my vaulters are not yet ready to begin playing with their bottom arm yet. I will not even think about instructing them with a forward bottom arm extension until they demonstrate they can get it over there head, achieve good penetration into inverse-C and begin to develop their swing. I think they do need to be aware that I believe a bottom arm forward extension is part of that process.
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Re: pushing back out during the swing?

Unread postby altius » Sun May 12, 2013 1:24 am

PVDaddy -my advice is to quit the analysis of what Bubka did or didn't do and spend your time coaching kids for a year or two. You wil learn a lot more. Also as I have indicated here many times it is very difficult to coach the vault without access to a high bar.
Its what you learn after you know it all that counts. John Wooden

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Re: pushing back out during the swing?

Unread postby altius » Sun May 12, 2013 1:29 am

However you could short circuit the learning process by coming to one of the clinics I am running along with some great US coaches in June and early july. Yes the medics have said I can travel.
Its what you learn after you know it all that counts. John Wooden

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Re: pushing back out during the swing?

Unread postby ADTF Academy » Sun May 12, 2013 9:53 am

PVDaddy wrote: Sergey said that "the best vaulters are the educated vaulters"! He said that his mind works like a computer or a movie camera were he can see the entire vault in his mind. At our last practice I told the Kids; "If you cannot see the entire vault, from the very first step to landing on the pad, then, as a coach I am wasting my time with you. If you cannot see the entire vault down to the finest details in your mind eye then how the heck do you expect to perform it correctly under real conditions? You think your just gonna get lucky and perform all the correct intricate movements a great vault requires? Good luck! In order for the body to achieve it, the mind has got to first perceive it and know it! There is no way in heck i'm gonna be able to help you in a piece meal fashion by telling you to do this or do that? You are gonna have to know it yourself and you are your best coach!" All my kids have Sergeys first 6 Meter vault stored in their favorites on these new "Smart phones". I tell them to watch it and learn it as often as they are able.

Why is the use of the bottom arm have to be so special and handled with a hands off approach? Is it because there is so much confusion and different theories as to what the bottom hand should be doing? It seems to me the real world and the very differences of opinion here and everywhere have certainly proven this to be a fact? It's as if most have thought I really don't Know, therefore I will leave it alone. This is the best approach if you don't know, but what should you do if you feel you do? As a coach I am willing to run the risk in finding out if I am correct. I suppose many think I am running the risk of injuring my vaulters or ruining them in the process? I am not convinced that I am not running the same risk by not, and I believe all coaches run the same risk with so many different techniques.


Sergey also told me at dinner one night in Portland a little wish he had for me as a group sat around the dinner table giving toasts. Basically paraphrasing his message. That a coach will only be able to prove their theories can/will work if they can discover that one athlete who has the athletic ability to perform said actions and is willing to listen unconditionally and perform the actions with no second thought or hesitation. He wished me good luck ever finding an athlete like that cause till than all we can do is hope what we are asking an athlete to do is actually being processed correctly.

I like the computer analogy and I wish as a coach we could plug a USB cable into the back of their heads and process their memories. Not every athlete is running the best processor out there some just don't have the RAM for better use of computer words. Better sprinters are better sprinters not 100% cause they train harder but because they have a bigger engine to start with. Some athletes can see the movements others can't. Some athletes can feel the movements others can't. Those that progress fast could do it with or with out a coach. Sadly many times we as coaches may just be getting in the way of letting an athlete blossom on their own.

Watching video is a great tool. It would be interesting though to find out exactly what the athlete is actually looking at. Coach shows video to point out a movement and athlete is stuck only focusing on something that is of no importance yet in their brain they have said that is what is important. I want to bend the pole or I want to be inverted. Video is great but can be a negative to learning to feel. Just my opinion.


In a strange way I look at the bottom arm as the fix to aggression. I have come to notice two different types of vaulters those that are just flat out aggressive and those that can only be aggressive if they are focusing on blasting the bottom arm. The bottom arm may just be the cue but the real importance is the aggression to hit the plant as hard as they can. If they can do it with no concentration on bottom arm ok. If they need a little cue than ok. If they need to lock it out than ok. If they have zero aggression well they will never jump high for ability level and most likely will be a run through champ on little poles.

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Re: pushing back out during the swing?

Unread postby ADTF Academy » Sun May 12, 2013 10:10 am

PVDaddy wrote:This whole question about what the bottom arm should do after penetration has showed me two very enlightening things and that is after examining videos of elite vaulters, no two vaulters do it exactly alike and many times the same vaulter does not perform it the same way on each vault! Either this is because they have not been taught a consistent method ( It seems that this is very well supported by the fact that I am hearing from so many here to just let the bottom hand do what it needs to and don't coach it) or the vaulter has changed his technique (IE Walker) or that every vault is a one off (Altius) and the vaulter must perform a different bottom arm action to adjust to the different variations of the take-off which supports the above philosophy of the coaches? But, is this not true with the other elements of the vault as well? Don't we try to coach them to on ideal standard?
I am driven by the notion that there must be one best way to utilize the bottom arm under ideal conditions. Is it not the goal to always TRY to acieve the 'Ideal" vault whatever our method may be? Thus, I am continuously lead back to my model-Bubka and his first 6 Meter vault. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-UwBaf8f98



You make my point for me. If you only stare at one video you see what is occurring in one video and not the norms that are created. That one video to you may be perfect to the athlete and coach they may go well only if it was like this man I would have jumped higher. What we preserve is what we want to not what is real till you compare hundreds of videos of the same athlete. I've seen at least 20+ different positions of Bubkas bottom arm on jumps yet he finds a way to still hit the positions later in the jump every time. This leaves me to go well hey is it the movements of the body that is important or one part of the body?

For those Triple Jump coaches the bottom arm to me is like the 2nd phase of the TJ. Its a catch all. If the first phase (the takeoff) is incorrect than the 2nd phase (bottom arm) will be different. I'd be safe to say no two vaulters are identical for the following reasons.

Pole Length
Grip Height
Flex rating
Takeoff spot
Takeoff Angle
Vaulter Reach height prior to impact
Spacing of grip
Length of arms broken down into length of shoulder to elbow and elbow to hand
Velocity at takeoff
height of COM at impact
Postural position of pelvic bone at impact
Trunk directional lean positive or negative at impact
Probably hundreds of more little differences between not only jumpers but each jump we take


With just the variables I have listed the difference between even one jump to the next could be large if you take into account all these topics so therefore how can the exact position be achieved over and over. What is the basic movements the coach and athlete are attempting to achieve. Personally limbs that are auxiliary to the vault should not be looked at to a great level such as bottom arm and lead knee. These two parts will adjust to what is given. They will help tell you what happened at plant and will adjust when the plant and takeoff is corrected. To focus on them means your missing the big picture the takeoff posture was incorrect so the lead knee dropped to allow for a long swing. If it stayed up the swing would be swallow and the vaulter would come up short. I look at it on a scale with the middle being the base jump. It's not great but will get the job done. What movements make up your base jump. Than on the left side is ideal movements to create the perfect jump. On the right side are bad movements that will create a crappy jump. For me the goal is to make the base as wide as possible so no matter what happens the athlete can still end with a successful jump. The smaller the base is the more erratic the jumper will be. If you need a perfect jump to be successful your doomed to fail. The is an art of salvaging jumps. Big meets are won and lost by dumb misses at the opening height. Can the athlete clear the opening height ugly. Can they salvage a bad takeoff and still make the bar. This is the sign of an athlete who is learning to pole vault not mimic a coaches dream technique.


Bottom arm may help some vaulters move bigger poles cause they feel confident and connected but it is My Opinion it will not help you jump higher to focus on it. The real way is to figure out how to rotate bigger and stiffer poles and get connected on top as you reach inversion. If all pressure is going thru the top hand than the pole is lifting you as high as it can. If pressure is elsewhere than it will throw you into a Flag position. Can the athlete catch the ride on the longest and stiffest pole possible and still make it safely in the pit. When the athlete can do that I will bet they will win more times than not over an athlete gripping a foot less on way softer poles even if they look like a better vaulter. I'll take the vaulter who can find a way to rotate the longer stiffer pole safely into the pit every time. Jumping ugly high still means you win. Just be safe doing it.

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Re: pushing back out during the swing?

Unread postby ADTF Academy » Sun May 12, 2013 10:28 am

PVDaddy wrote: Why is the use of the bottom arm have to be so special and handled with a hands off approach? Is it because there is so much confusion and different theories as to what the bottom hand should be doing? It seems to me the real world and the very differences of opinion here and everywhere have certainly proven this to be a fact? It's as if most have thought I really don't Know, therefore I will leave it alone. This is the best approach if you don't know, but what should you do if you feel you do? As a coach I am willing to run the risk in finding out if I am correct. I suppose many think I am running the risk of injuring my vaulters or ruining them in the process? I am not convinced that I am not running the same risk by not, and I believe all coaches run the same risk with so many different techniques.




This is a general comment not geared towards anyone in particular. However, your points make these comments worth saying.


The old analogy of a coach knowing just enough to be dangerous.... I commend any coach who says man I am just not 100% sure what to do so I'll leave that alone over a coach that goes well I think this is what should happen so lets go for it. The second is way more dangerous. Kids have been jumping over rivers with a pole for generations not getting hurt. We all talk safety yet is it some of the coaches who are in fact making it unsafe? The body unless told to do something will tend to shy on the safe side. I'll take a coach who leaves it alone and allows the athlete to grow over a coach who thinks they know it all really to find out they don't know squat.

Second point is as coaches we will have many careers with athletes. They will come and go and we will grow as we work with more athletes. Sometimes we want it now we want to know now we want more now yet it takes time for even coaches to develop. We do trial and error and see what works or doesn't work. We read books attend seminars and hear people tell their stories. Maybe we learn from them maybe we don't. At the end of the day we must make a choice is attempting something with the risk of causing an athlete to fail. For me the second part is we may have many careers, but the athletes we are in charge of only have ONE CAREER..... Is experimenting worth possibly destroying their career?

This was even a hard lesson for me a few years back looking back on it now I over coached everything wanted perfect movements and wouldn't progress till I got them. Looking back I probably held a few of them back because of it. They ended up jumping well, but maybe not as good as they could have if allowed to blossom. I look more at those who didn't do well over those who did and ask why?

I really challenge all coaches to take a step back and measure your success not by how many champions you had, but on how many you didn't destroy. To me this is the biggest issue with our college system. How many athletes are destroyed in college? Why? It's not always the coaches fault social plays a major role as well, but if it is because of a major change in their technique than yes chalk that up to the coach destroyed their career.

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Re: pushing back out during the swing?

Unread postby altius » Sun May 12, 2013 7:42 pm

Tis is why I have been arguing for umpteen years on the need for coaches to accept the Petrov/Bubka technical model. Then as they say we will all be on the same page and it will not be necessary for athletes to change when the move coaches. However i now think that this is an impossible dream - we have even lost the notion in OZ. Although if anyone cares to compare the two young lads I recently posted on Utube with my original group of athletes in the book and dvd it is easy to see that THEY at least come from the same philosophy.

PVDaddy -dont get lost in the verbiage again - certainly don't argue the point with PVAcademy - he has been struggling -with some success - to resolve these issues with REAL athletes for several years. Save up your pennies and come to one of the clinics this summer.
Its what you learn after you know it all that counts. John Wooden


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