pushing back out during the swing?

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Re: pushing back out during the swing?

Unread postby KYLE ELLIS » Wed May 08, 2013 12:05 pm

KirkB wrote:
KYLE ELLIS wrote: The left arm pushing away can increase the speed of the shoulders dropping away and the hips rising above the shoulders. You also will be able to load the pole more, since you are making yourself as long as possible.

KYLE ELLIS wrote: People who perform this correctly you will see them getting extended up a bending pole very fast and the hips never stop moving.

Kyle, these 2 statements are contradictory, aren't they?

If you say that Walker and Lavillenie are doing this "correctly", then how do you account for their tuck-shoot technique? While they're in their tucks, their hips have stopped moving! That pause in the tuck is because they have to wait for the pole to roll forwards!

As far as I can tell, their technique doesn't follow Agapit's Theory of Continuous Motion. Are you saying it does? :confused:

Kirk


No those two statements aren't contradictory, and if you are going to criticize make sure you read what I said please. I said Lavallenie does it better thatn Walker, I said it shouldn't be broken and you visibly shouldn't see two parts. I said it should look like Bubka's who has a very slight break at the knee and breaks at the hip.

Wlaker pushes to much into the pole, and Lavallenie has to tuck because he is over gripping and the pole is sinking.

And it is possible to keep the hips moving even with a tuck and shoot. Here is a video of a kid that tucks and shoots, but the hips are alwasy rising. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yUozT73Y1E
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Re: pushing back out during the swing?

Unread postby KYLE ELLIS » Wed May 08, 2013 12:52 pm

The amount the pole bends does play a part on what the bottom arm looks like, but to simply say the arm is moving away because the pole is bending away isn't 100% the truth. You can tell when people are just swinging the legs and body and being passive with the arms, you can tell when someone pulls, you can tell when someone rows down...
I get irritated when people say Bubka isn't doing anything with his bottom arm. Do any of us really know? No, I guess not but when I study his film I can see it clear as day. I have also seen Petrov teaching drills to his athletes to work on this, and in his article on IAAF he clearly talks about it!! So do I trust the people on here who see what they want to see, no because I was open to every possible theory. Pulling, leg whipping, bottom arm pressure, etc. I was lucky enough to still be vaulting and get to experiment with all of these things, and it was so clear and easy to understand what action was correct. It also came very natural, unlike the other methods which I had to really mentally over ride to perform. And I kicked myself because it was right there in Petrovs article the whole time!

So I know some of the coaches debating the bottom arm haven't vaulted much, or haven't vaulted in a very long time and may be out of touch with what they felt.
I vaulted for fun past college, mostly experimenting. But I do move away from my bottom arm and it takes me right into a pulling of the bottom arm. What I feel is when the hips drop so far and the hips rise to a certain point that it's natural and istinctive to start pulling. Plus the fact that I straight pole regularly in which you have to pull. So on bending pole after I swing long (in which the left leg and arm extends away) after that action it's very similar to straight pole and thos insticts take over.

So I am a coach, and I have experimented and thought about all of this a lot. Here is me vaulting from a short approach with a low grip (13'5). I am moving away from my bottom arm and pulling and here is what it looks like.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e97YycWp ... zg&index=2

I also teach all of my athletes the same technique, and I would say we are right up there with any school as far as jumping over our grips.
Here is my best girl attempting 14'9 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Fpkqfe ... Q&index=13
And here is my best guy jumping at a 5.60 bungee- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFGTWg70 ... e=youtu.be

I know for a fact all three of the video the vaulters are pushing away from their shoulders with the bottom arm, then initiating the pull with the bottom arm. On bending poles we focus completely on the bottom arm, the top arm acts instinctually. I hope I can contribute something to the bottom arm discussion with since the three videos I provided I know exactly what the vaulters are doing.
It took me 2 years of vaulting and experimenting to figure out how the swing and the bottom arm works. There is more to it than what I led on here, but I hope this help some out there.
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Re: pushing back out during the swing?

Unread postby KirkB » Thu May 09, 2013 3:19 am

KYLE ELLIS wrote: .. it is possible to keep the hips moving even with a tuck and shoot. Here is a video of a kid that tucks and shoots, but the hips are always rising. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yUozT73Y1E

Yeh, I agree that his hips are always rising. :yes:

But I don't agree that he's tuck-shooting. I guess your definition of tuck-shoot is different than mine. Mine is if there's a PAUSE in the tuck. I don't see any pause during his tuck.

KYLE ELLIS wrote: I also teach all of my athletes the same technique

You haven't asked for any critique of the vids of yourself and your proteges, but I'll give it to you anyway (despite your snide comments) ...

The biggest error that the 3 of you are making does NOT have much to do with the bottom arm. It's lack of a stretch to the C position.

Take another look at Walker's vid, and you'll see the difference.

No comment on the bottom arm - your mind is made up anyway.

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Re: pushing back out during the swing?

Unread postby ADTF Academy » Thu May 09, 2013 9:49 am

KYLE ELLIS wrote:I also teach all of my athletes the same technique, and I would say we are right up there with any school as far as jumping over our grips.
Here is my best girl attempting 14'9 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Fpkqfe ... Q&index=13
And here is my best guy jumping at a 5.60 bungee- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFGTWg70 ... e=youtu.be

I know for a fact all three of the video the vaulters are pushing away from their shoulders with the bottom arm, then initiating the pull with the bottom arm. On bending poles we focus completely on the bottom arm, the top arm acts instinctually. I hope I can contribute something to the bottom arm discussion with since the three videos I provided I know exactly what the vaulters are doing.
It took me 2 years of vaulting and experimenting to figure out how the swing and the bottom arm works. There is more to it than what I led on here, but I hope this help some out there.



I think the question was pushing back out after the takeoff. Your guy has a straight bottom arm upon leaving the ground. So therefore it would be assumed he pushed out completely prior to impact. IE focusing on the bottom arm. I wouldn't call that an example of the topic at hand. A good instinctive jump but not a weak bottom arm that than straightens out. IMO if the athlete is trying to extend it prior to impact and takeoff than yes they are trying to straighten arm during first half of the jump. If they are not the bottom arm becomes as you put it INSTINCTIVE. It will straighten out as the pole bends and the athlete swing as well as it will pull as the athlete moves to inversion. The top hand is where the key factor is IMO.

I am not saying a weak bottom arm or non aggressive takeoff. Some I think say a bottom arm straight means an aggressive takeoff. Aggression comes form the trunk as a whole not the arms or hands on their own.


I'll make the key point for me again. What a coach teaches is there own opinion if it is sound technical movements. If you applying pressure with the bottom arm at impact and during the swing you are cueing it. Thats your choice. I'm just saying just because a vaulter's bottom arm is extending doesn't mean that are applying any additional forced cueing of the bottom arm. It is just straightening as they swing and the pole bends. The bottom arm is as mentioned instinctive.

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Re: pushing back out during the swing?

Unread postby PVDaddy » Thu May 09, 2013 10:54 pm

Kyle, I like the style of your vault and the overall style of your vailters. No it is not Bubka perfect but, how many are? Most here are not world class athletes but I must commend you in the direction you are going as a coach. It seems to me you are certainly attempting to emulate the Petrov model and are not promoting the tuck and shoot. Thank-You for providing us with your "real world" experience as a vaulter and coach. I most definately believe, see, and feel the benefit "Forward" pressure from the bottom hand "Post Take-off". I am emphasizing post take-off, because, it is imperative that it is very clear that we are not describing a bottom hand block out during penetration or the methods that Walker and Lavelinie are demonstrating or promoting the Tuck and Shoot (Kirk your emphasis on this is a distraction from the key issues of debate here and is only muddying the waters as you like to say) but are describing how Bubka performs this strategy to benefit. It is also imperative that this action of bottom arm extension (pressing out until it is fully extemded during the ENTIRE downswing ( Especially C through active-I and the early stages of the upswing be clearly defined. This is a "forward "
pressure and does not begin until after the Pole/Vaulter system has been fully loaded (Bottom hand over head) "After" penetration. It is not a perpendicular pressure to the pole but a forward pressure in line with the pole (The direction it naturally wants to go) and fully complies with Petrovs plan of always keeping the pole and the vaulter moving toward vertical (the two pendulums). The major benefit it provides is that it "maintains" what I call "The body coil tension" on the whip. This body coil tension extends down the top hand, through the shoulder girdles and spine all the way to the whip toe. It also allows more body coils action through the shoulder girdle of the bottom hand on that side. It does also have the benefit of assisting a deeper and higher bend of the pole and helps maintain the pressure on the top hand (Proper first axis of rotation) throughout the swing. The outward force along the pole greatly increases the force and speed of the whip because it maintains the pressure on the body coil. OF course Walker and Lavelinie do it incorrectly. They Tuck and Shoot! Bubka on the other hand maintains the forward away from the direction of the body coil all the way to the L-position were it is seemlessly blended to a pulling action through the shoulder to "Continue" the pressure on the body coil whip to inversion. Study the below video. At the beginning of the outward pressure it begins as an upward pressure because his arm is collapsed from penetration and because the whip toe is behind his body. He must begin by applying the pressure in that direction to maximize the pressure on the body coil and whip, but as the whip descends this pressure is almost completely forward away from the whip toe and in the "SAME" direction the pole wants to move maintaining the body coil ELASTICITY the entire time! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-UwBaf8f98
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Re: pushing back out during the swing?

Unread postby KirkB » Fri May 10, 2013 12:52 am

PVDaddy wrote: ... the methods that Walker and Lavelinie are demonstrating or promoting the Tuck and Shoot (Kirk your emphasis on this is a distraction from the key issues of debate here and is only muddying the waters ...

PVDaddy wrote: ... OF course Walker and Lavelinie do it incorrectly. They Tuck and Shoot!

It's very odd that you would say that my mention of the tuck-shoot in their vaults is a distraction from the main topic of this thread, yet further down in the same post you yourself refer to them tuck-shooting! :confused:

PVDaddy wrote: ... blah blah blah ... yada yada ...

Muddy waters!

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Last edited by KirkB on Fri May 10, 2013 11:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: pushing back out during the swing?

Unread postby ADTF Academy » Fri May 10, 2013 7:16 am

PVDaddy wrote: I most definately believe, see, and feel the benefit "Forward" pressure from the bottom hand "Post Take-off". I am emphasizing post take-off, because, it is imperative that it is very clear that we are not describing a bottom hand block out during penetration or the methods that Walker and Lavelinie are demonstrating or promoting the Tuck and Shoot (Kirk your emphasis on this is a distraction from the key issues of debate here and is only muddying the waters as you like to say) but are describing how Bubka performs this strategy to benefit. It is also imperative that this action of bottom arm extension (pressing out until it is fully extemded during the ENTIRE downswing ( Especially C through active-I and the early stages of the upswing be clearly defined. This is a "forward "
pressure and does not begin until after the Pole/Vaulter system has been fully loaded (Bottom hand over head) "After" penetration. It is not a perpendicular pressure to the pole but a forward pressure in line with the pole (The direction it naturally wants to go) and fully complies with Petrovs plan of always keeping the pole and the vaulter moving toward vertical (the two pendulums). The major benefit it provides is that it "maintains" what I call "The body coil tension" on the whip.



Post takeoff and does not begin until after the pole/vaulter system has been fully loaded......

There are a lot of things that occur post takeoff. That is very general. I would said the timing of fully loaded can change significantly from 1 vaulter to the next. I have never heard Walker or Renaud promote a Tuck and Shoot.... Has anyone or is this just another example of someone making up an argument so they can sound correct. The action occurs why is a great question but not the topic of this discussion which was pushing back out after takeoff. You go roll a 5.10 pole over and see if you look perfect from day 1. I've seen video of Bubka even with a tuck motion. It can happen to anyone.

I don't even know what your trying to say... Forward pressure than later forward pressure in line with the pole. But not blocking out arm extension. If I was an athlete I would be beyond confused with these generalist remarks on what you want from the athlete. To press or not to press. To lock out or not to lock out. Sorry your way of trying to make a point just didn't work.

"The body coil tension" can occur to its max if constant pressure is maintained on the two points of the top hand the the box. This will create the most stretch thru the entire body being full body elastic. Do the logical situation. If you stand next to a wall and with your left hand push against the wall where does your body go into the wall or away from the wall? Superman punches thru the wall humans get pushed backwards.

If an athlete is not performing the action of the left arm extension INSTINCTIVELY (i really like this word now) than any unwanted undesired or forced action of said bottom arm will in fact apply negative pressure on the shoulders pushing them out of alignment. However, this is only true if as a coach or athlete we can come to a conclusion which wins. The force we can apply pushing/extending or a fiberglass pole designed to resist bending? Once again this is based off the topic at hand. Pressing back out after you leave the ground. When an athlete is on the ground in a locked out position prior to impact than yes they have a mechanical position to be able to lock it out.

I think that is the key question here. Wise minds of PVP. Are athletes strong enough to be in the air with no leverage points IE standing firm on the ground and be able to take their bottom hand and press the pole bent? Or would the pole resist this pressure and only cause the shoulders of the athlete to rotate backwards behind the top arm?

If the pressure/extension is not timed up with the bending of the pole due to the continuous forces being applied on the pole IE Torque generated during the swing than any additional forces applied that gets the body out of ideal alignment will cause unwanted effects. Those effects are up to each of us to determine if we want them or not as coaches.

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Re: pushing back out during the swing?

Unread postby KirkB » Fri May 10, 2013 11:56 am

ADTF Academy wrote: I have never heard Walker or Renaud promote a Tuck and Shoot.... Has anyone or is this just another example of someone making up an argument so they can sound correct. The action occurs why is a great question ...

That's a good point. The action does occur - it's visible plain as day. It's indisputable.

Why? It's been 10 years since I spoke to Brad Walker with his UW coach Pat Licari, and I know back then Brad and Pat were striving for the Petrov Model, and both were proponents of the Continuous Chain of Motion Theory (I discussed this with Pat quite thoroughly), but Brad knew he wasn't quite there. Back then, he had more of a pike-shoot than a tuck-shoot, and he didn't have the extreme C that he has now. Today, his C is far better than most!

Today, I'm sure he's on heavier poles. The dilemma is ALWAYS do I go to a heavier pole and sacrifice some technique, or do I stay with a lighter pole and improve my technique? I agree that Walker is not purposely tuck-shooting, but that is the consequence of him choosing a heavier pole. Any time you see a pause in a tuck, it's because the vaulter is waiting for the pole to roll forwards - this is inefficient.

Like I said earlier, Walker's technique is cool, it's his choice, and he's a very smart vaulter so he's not doing this blindly - he knows what he's doing! I personally would choose a lighter pole and strive for a more continuous chain of motion, but that's just me. He's doing very well, but most would agree that his performances have been rather inconsistent over the years, and he could do better. Some of his inconsistencies can be attributed to injuries, but I think some can also be attributed to technical flaws. Still, he's the one that holds the American Record - not anyone else!

ADTF Academy wrote: Are athletes strong enough to be in the air with no leverage points ... and be able to take their bottom hand and press the pole bent? ... any additional forces applied that gets the body out of ideal alignment will cause unwanted effects. ...

I'll skip the "out of alignment" issue, because I don't see that as the main issue. To me, the physics (or lack of understanding of the physics) is the most misunderstood problem.

From a physics standpoint, with only the butt of the pole in the box and the vaulter's hands on the pole, the vaulter-pole system is "set" or "predetermined". i.e. Other than the additional forces that might be applied by gymnastic movements (I want to leave that out of this thread, because it's an unrelated side issue), the more you resist with the bottom arm, the less you swing. It's actually that simple. Conversely, the more you swing from the TOP hand (without resisting with the bottom hand), the sooner and quicker you will invert, and the sooner and quicker you will raise your CoG.

Going to a bigger pole and then thinking that you need to apply additional pressure to it with the bottom hand to "make" it bend is an illogical trap. It guarantees that your swing will be slower, and it guarantees that your motion will not be as continuous. And without these 2 things, you won't get your CoG high enough to explode off the pole in unison with it straightening out.

I would much rather see a vaulter raise his CoG quicker, and fly off the end of the pole more explosively (a la Bubka) than have technical flaws (like tuck-shoot) to deal with.

And the funny thing is, when you SOLVE the Continuous Change of Motion problem with the Petrov Model, then you can STILL get on bigger poles. I don't know Bubka's pole sizes, but I would guess that his poles were ALMOST as big as those of other vaulters that didn't have his stellar technique.

It's your TECHNIQUE that gets you most of the way over the bar - not the size of your pole!

Kirk
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Re: pushing back out during the swing?

Unread postby PVDaddy » Fri May 10, 2013 2:58 pm

Kirk, you say that you can clearly see Walker and Renaud pushing out with the downswing and yet you refuse to see it in Bubkas first 6 just because it doesn't coincide with your past THEORIES!? LOL https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-UwBaf8f98

You then try to suggest that pushing back out during the downswing some how has something to do with the fact they tuck and shoot?Blah BLAH BLAH!
The fact is they ALL Push out during the downswing and the REASON they do that is because it accelerates it! :idea:

My REASON for bringing up the fact that Walker and Renaud "Tuck and shoot" is to demonstrate that its IMPOSSIBLE for them to CORRECTLY apply the FORWARD bottom hand extension because the TUCK before it is ever complete! :idea:

I have fully explained in detail why forward extension of the bottom arm (WITH the pole not perpendicular) post take-off (AFTER PENETRATION) greatly benefits the speed of the whip. Now man the heck up here (Don't refer to all your old incorrect theories, do it here. not much to ask for and should not take long) KIRK and explain to us all why you feel it hurts it?
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Re: pushing back out during the swing?

Unread postby KirkB » Fri May 10, 2013 6:25 pm

PVDaddy, I HAVE manned up and explained myself in more words than I thought should have been necessary. And I obviously wasted my words on you, because you're STILL asking for a better explanation. I cannot be clearer than I've been already.

I am no longer trying to make sense of any of your theories - I gave up on that quite awhile ago - so don't expect me to reply to you point-by-point re whatever you ask. My patience has worn thin. Most of the time, I only read the first and last sentences of your posts. If I try to read your full posts AND MAKE SENSE OF THEM I'll go in circles and go crazy trying to figure out what it is that you're saying that has any relevance to the topic, or any relevance to physics or the Petrov Model. It's far too time consuming for me to deal with you at that level, so I've given up trying.

ADTF Academy wrote:
PVDaddy wrote: ... blah blah blah ... yada yada ...

I don't even know what your trying to say... Forward pressure than later forward pressure in line with the pole. But not blocking out arm extension. If I was an athlete I would be beyond confused with these generalist remarks on what you want from the athlete. To press or not to press. To lock out or not to lock out. Sorry your way of trying to make a point just didn't work.
...

Based on this quote, it looks like ADTF is equally confused with the world according to PVDaddy. That's at least two of us. There are many more regular posters that are voting by their silence.

So please stop your persistent heckling, and your persistent injection of confusing ideas in this Advanced Technique Forum (where you should just be asking questions and you should not be asserting your own unqualified, confusing theories and opinions), and get out on the track and coach your 2 kids.

That's the only way you're going to learn some of this stuff - by actually PRACTICING your theories on them. And I sure hope you don't confuse them in the process. My recommendation to you would be to just follow the BTB2 book, without trying to embellish it with any of your own theories that you seem to think are so convincing and "better".

Kirk
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Re: pushing back out during the swing?

Unread postby PVDaddy » Fri May 10, 2013 8:11 pm

Well I don't think its confusing them to much since all FOUR of them PR"D just recently. Having a great time! I will continue to promote what I feel is best with their technique, thankYou!
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Re: pushing back out during the swing?

Unread postby KirkB » Fri May 10, 2013 9:12 pm

PVDaddy wrote:Well I don't think its confusing them to much since all FOUR of them PR"D just recently. Having a great time! I will continue to promote what I feel is best with their technique, thankYou!

You're welcome. :)

I hate to break it to you, but HS kids SHOULD be PR'ing around this time every year. Coach or no coach, it would be unusual if they DIDN'T PR.

Just another example of you jumping to false conclusions re cause and effect. :confused:

Don't get me wrong, I think it's fantastic that you're taking the time to coach these kids, and just your enthusiasm alone should be enough to inspire them to PR! :yes:

Plus you're working with them on their mid-marks, ensuring that their steps aren't under, and make sure they get the right balance of running, gymnastics, vaulting, training, rest, sleep, hydration, nutrition, safety lessons, and confidence-building, right?

Just these basics alone should be enough to get them over a bar in the 12-0 to 13-6 range. They don't need any Advanced Technique (good or bad) to get over these bars. If you're giving them any advanced or theoretical advice (like you've discussed here on this Advanced Technique Forum), you would only befuddle them, and they would likely NOT improve their PRs!

In my last year of HS, I hit a plateau and only increased my PR by 9" because of bad/confusing advice to push with my bottom arm. Every other year in HS I increased my PR by a foot-and-a-half! So I'm not just blowing hot air in your direction - I know a thing or two about the correlation between a good coach, good technique, and PRs. :star:

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