pushing back out during the swing?

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PVDaddy
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Re: pushing back out during the swing?

Unread postby PVDaddy » Wed Sep 25, 2013 7:51 pm

Coacheric:
Incorrect. It appears to you that the pole has stopped rotating because the bottom of the pole is relatively stationary, and while the pole is uncoiling, only the sail piece is moving. However, the chord of the pole is still rotating forward


I would sure hope the chord of the pole moves forward as the pole uncoils!!!? But that was not the subject of your statement now was it???
The subject of your statement was the forward rotation of the pole!

Let's see what you posted:
A vaulter who pulls will slow pole rotation and break the swing


Who's the one confusing the reader?

Me:
Now examine Bubka performing a very strong pulling action in his most famous Vault (His highest hip clearance ever!) at frame 3:54. Notice that it coincides at the exact moment he breaks at the hips.



CoachEric:
Incorrect. The vaulter cannot pull while simultaneously dropping the shoulders. They are opposing forces. Pulling would preclude the hips from swinging over the shoulders as fast as possible, and it would make it impossible for the vaulter to perform a clean on top of the pole. I believe you think you are seeing a pulling motion because you are watching these videos in slow motion, or frame by frame. Watch vaulters in real time, and consider that the speed of ther swing is a result of downswing speed, pole speed, and energy from the runway. Any pole vaulter who swings their hips to their hands without tucking will confirm that pulling is incorrect.


Granted the strong pulling action of the top arm Bubka demonstrates in frame 3:54 is a very quick action. But it is clear and indisputable! The elbow and the pole very clearly bend. I merely ask the reader to look for themselves. Also notice the rapid drop of the shoulder and the rise of the hips follow immediately afterward.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QribYk ... sults_main

You have to qualify this statement, because there are lots of gymnastic manuevers, some that involve pulling, and some that don't
It


I'ts been very clear that we have been discussing the gymastic tap to the Giant from the beginning. More unnecessary distraction.

Also PVstudent draw all the Muller optical illusion lines you like and study them to your hearts content and complicate it all you like with your sophisticated jargon!



Pv student:
PV Daddy can carry on his fantastic ramblings because I would not deny him his right to free speech, free thought and any other right but I am going to exercise my right to ignore him on PVP topics in the advanced section.


You never gave me that right to begin with! So don't even think you could EVER deny it ! I could care less if you ignore my post. I will not deny you of that right. Also, of course I spend a great deal of time reading what others have to say about the vault and it does indeed have an impact on what I think and say about it. Its called research and learning from others. Many people do that. I highly recommend it!
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Re: pushing back out during the swing?

Unread postby KirkB » Wed Sep 25, 2013 11:24 pm

On Sep 25, 2013 PVStudent wrote: Simply put Bubka does not demonstrate significant “Downswing” but demonstrates that the force and timing of the initiation of a “Whip-Like” leg swing is such that it effectively drives the vaulter pole system in a predominantly horizontal forward direction. The displacement pathways of his C of M, and Bubka’s hands gripping the pole show continuous elevation for the first 30% of the time of pole support which raises some question as to the validity of “Downswing” as a valid or useful instructional construct to apply in teaching or coaching flexible pole vaulting.


I am defending my definition of the word "downswing", but I am otherwise not joining this fray (as promised). I merely want to point out to PVStudent that if there is any misinterpretation of the word "downswing", it is not due to me intentionally inferring that a downswing is anything other than what I've stated in these 2 quotes:

On May 24, 2013KirkB wrote:
AVC Coach wrote: My understanding of what's been described as the downswing is this.....You have to finish your take-off (trail leg far behind the hips) and keep your trail leg straight throughout the swing. ... finishing the take-off is essential to jumping high.
:yes:
I'm the one that coined the terms "downswing" and "upswing", so an explanation is in order. Prior to this, only the generic term "swing" was used. The intent of distinguishing the downswing from the upswing (which summed together is the "swing") is to emphasis certain things that should happen during the downswing, and other things that should happen during the upswing.

The downswing is the part of the swing that occurs prior to your trail leg passing the chord of the pole. The upswing is obviously the part AFTER passing the chord.

The term "downswing" is admittedly a bit of a misnomer. Just as the minute hand on a clock sweeps "down" from quarter past the hour to half past the hour, the "downswing" actually refers to swinging (or whipping) in a rotational direction - hinging at the hips, but in unison with popping out of the elastic C position with your entire body (arms and torso included).


On Sep 16, 2013 KirkB wrote: ... it does sound contradictory that you must go DOWN to go UP. Actually, the DOWNswing is the ROTATIONAL action of the trail leg hinging at the hip and top hand (the top hand to begin with, then transforming to the hip). So it's not really going in a DOWNwards direction. More FORWARDS than any other direction, I'd say.


PVStudent, I trust that you agree with me that we are both describing this action as being "in a predominantly horizontal forward direction"?

My additional rationale for coining this term to refer to the PV context (as opposed to the highbar context of a gymnast doing a giant) is that my bread-and-butter drill for learning this so-called downswing action was my Hinge/Whip Drill on the highbar. In THIS drill, there was clearly a downswing component. The action of performing this drill was very, very similar to the action of the downswing on the pole. Even though the similar action on the pole was predominantly horizontal (in REALITY, and when viewed by someone from the side of the runway), the 2 actions on the highbar and on the pole FELT the same (to me, the vaulter). Thus my justification for why it made sense to call the PV action the same name as the highbar drill where I learned it.

Kirk
Run. Plant. Jump. Stretch. Whip. Extend. Fly. Clear. There is no tuck! THERE IS NO DELAY!

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Re: pushing back out during the swing?

Unread postby altius » Thu Sep 26, 2013 12:47 am

" I spend a great deal of time reading what others have to say about the vault and it does indeed have an impact on what I think and say about it."

As I repeatedly suggest - try learning about this event by actually coaching it - better still try teaching it. Show us the result of your efforts. Never forget that science can be both a method of analysis and a design for action. Put your design into action and show us how it all works.

"Its called research and learning from others. Many people do that. I highly recommend it!"

Your writing suggests that you are far more interested in pushing the barrow of your wonderful "new improved" ideas than you are in learning from others. PVstudent has just presented you with some of the best research you are ever likely to see on the pole vault and you can only respond like this. So in the end all you are doing is confirming that you are a joke. However because most folk who are involved with this forum are pretty reasonable and don't like upsetting others, they are unlikely to tell you that - they simply turn off and get on with their coaching.

You can hurl any abuse back at me that you like but you will not dent my credibility - you will only make yourself look even more pathetic.
Its what you learn after you know it all that counts. John Wooden

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Re: pushing back out during the swing?

Unread postby PVDaddy » Thu Sep 26, 2013 1:50 am

CoachEric:
Angular motion takes place about three separate axes.
1. Top hand grip
2. Shoulders
3. Hips


Gee blind squirrel I wonder were you got that from? As far as I know I was the first one on here to to identify and describe the 3 axis of rotation her on PVP on March 15, 2013. May I suggest if you are going to identify them you do it in the order they occur!

Me:
The importance of chest penetration into the full body stretched invert-C position cannot be over-stressed. You must allow the swing to occur naturally at the top hand (The first axis of rotation.


And:
Now the TAP (soviet learned system of the most efficient swinging method on the high bar) occurs, as the bottom hand must continue to be fully straightened ( This is THE BLOCK of the vault!) As the long extended pendulum swing of the leg (long levers deliver the most energy) is now elevated by the pelvic (Abdomen) thrust and use of the hip joint muscles (The strongest lever in the human body controlling that pendulum! THE WHIP COMES FROM THE HIP!), the axis of rotation is now transferred from the top hand to the swing leg hip joint.


And:
The vaulter is now in the L-position and beginning rock back to cover the pole. He has performed a strong top hand pull which has greatly assisted the propulsion of his hips upward and caused the pole to bend. He must maintain the bend in the pole by the backward lean and drive the lower body and legs toward the top hand (The axis of rotation has now changed from the hips to the shoulder joints)


CoachEric:

Prior to the initiation of the downswing (position 4 in your diagram)
, No its position 2
the tension point for the system has moved relatively close to the top hand. In position 5 , the vaulter aggressively realigns the body, with the hands moving toward vertical, swinging the system - and all 3 axes of rotation - through the chord of the pole
. Wrong the hands have been moving toward vertical the entire time starting in position 2.
The point of tension is in the top hand. This "up pressure" with the bottom arm serves to maintain compression on the pole and to increase the relative speed of the hips compared to the shoulders, because the shoulders are blocked as the body rotates around them.
What about the up and forward pressure of the top hand? The shoulders are not blocked from posiion 1-5. They are elastic and get stretched the entire time.

This is similar to the hollow position of a gymnast. Gymnastics coaches will sometimes tell young developing gymnasts to pretend they are pushing the bar upward while tapping.
No, they do not tell them to pretend, they tell them to push away from the bar.


Conclusion: I do not coach vaulters to "push back out with the bottom hand.
:yes: I tell them to re-extend their arms.
This language is imprecise. I coach vaulters to "go elastic, then hollow," or "press up,
They are still elastic while pressing up and hollow.
and attack the swing with the hips." Mind you, this comes only after the vaulter can correctly push the pole towards the back of the pit, move with the pole as an extension of the plant motion (going elastic), and swing without pulling.
Your getting there.
Every jot and every tittle adds up to more than just a little.

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Re: pushing back out during the swing?

Unread postby PVDaddy » Thu Sep 26, 2013 2:35 am

Altius:
As I repeatedly suggest - try learning about this event by actually coaching it - better still try teaching it. Show us the result of your efforts


How many times do I have to tell you I am coaching High School athletes. I guess some people liked the results of my efforts. I was just offered and excepted a position coaching college athletes as well. Thanks for the encouragement.


Your writing suggests that you are far more interested in pushing the barrow of your wonderful "new improved" ideas than you are in learning from others


No, I'm mostly concerned with the debunking of the pull with the bottom hand during the downswing propaganda you and Agapit have been promoting.
Have you given up on that, now that the "Jig is up?"

As far as my wonderful "new improved" ideas (as you put it) I have been promoting, much of it, I got from others.

in the end all you are doing is confirming that you are a joke


What has been confirmed is that your "Pull during the downswing" is a Joke and it is not helping your credability a single iota!
Every jot and every tittle adds up to more than just a little.

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Re: pushing back out during the swing?

Unread postby IAmTheWalrus » Thu Sep 26, 2013 7:26 am

PVstudent - Fantastic post!

A few things. First, PVdaddy, I don't know why you are trying to "debunk" the bottom arm pull, or why you think that there is some "jig" which was previously down, but is now inexplicably up, but good for you. Bottom arm action is a highly contentious topic on this board, with the majority opinion floating back and forth between pull, push, and do nothing. Most people who advocate pushing seem to feel that this somehow bends the pole more or "keeps pressure on it" while pulling will cause the pole to unbend horrifically to the horror and tragedy of everyone involved. My question to you is why would this happen? Actually I don't want you to answer, I'd rather one of the intelligent and accomplished coaches answer. Has anyone ever made a free body diagram of the vaulter pole system? I believe if you did this, and if you understand the forces involved, you would realize that pushing or pulling on the pole will have a minimal effect on the pole, and a large effect on you. If you pull on a highbar does the highbar come down or do you go up? If you were holding onto a rope and someone was pulling the rope up and you pulled down on the rope, would that pull the rope back down? Know, you will move relative to the rope. The same is true withe the pole vault, provided you are no longer in contact with the ground.

I find it difficult to believe that a one armed pull can oppose the force generated by a 70-85kg mass moving at 8.5-9.5m/s. The primary tradeoff between pulling and pushing is that with pushing you will maintain a lower COM for longer and swing more slowly, with less rotation around the shoulders, while with pulling your COM will rise instantly and your swing will be faster (and probably with less bend at the hips, or at least longer before your hips bend).

If you don't want to pull, that's fine, and if you feel that your way is better, that's fine too. But don't act like this is some crackpot theory that isn't grounded in physics, biomechanics, and coaching/vaulting experience, because it is. I don't know how you could possibly think Altius and Roman could possibly be trying to misinform people. By "jig" do you mean that they are coaching athletes to astounding improvements that seem unfair to uneducated coach like yourself? I assure you, it's not up.


For reference, hear is some video of my trying to intentionally accelerate my swing with the pull for the first time back in 2011. As always there is room for improvement, but I think that the swing speed and quality are both high, while pole rotation was not sacrificed. This is the same pole I used before I started pulling, the bungy is 6" higher than I had ever jumped on this pole.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2CEdnr ... LiypYN0crg
-Nick

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Re: pushing back out during the swing?

Unread postby altius » Thu Sep 26, 2013 8:29 am

What college? -what athletes? - what performances now? . Then keep us up to speed on how they improve?
Its what you learn after you know it all that counts. John Wooden

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Re: pushing back out during the swing?

Unread postby CoachEric » Thu Sep 26, 2013 1:41 pm

The vaulter's goal is to accelerate the swing while continuing to rotate the pole toward the back of the pit.

To increase the angular velocity of a pendulum, the radius between the mass and the pivot point should be shortened.

Nick, I believe you have adopted a technical model very similar to Isaakson. http://youtu.be/BeBBYSZW7_8 You effectively shorten the radius of your swing by pulling with the bottom arm. You're obviously an accomplished and knowledgable vaulter, so I will respectfully disagree with your assessment of the superior technique.

Contrast the images of Isaakson and Bubka:

Isaakson 2.jpg
Isaakson 2.jpg (53.33 KiB) Viewed 9403 times

Bubka.jpg
Bubka.jpg (34.67 KiB) Viewed 9403 times


I believe that to maximize pole rotation, the hollow position is superior. A gymnast accelerates their swing (shortens the radius) in a giant simply by changing shape, not by pulling.

Giant Swing.jpg
Giant Swing.jpg (126.81 KiB) Viewed 9403 times


While a gymnast attempts to stay long because it looks pretty, the advantage to the vaulter is that the center of mass stays lower and keeps the pole moving as fast as possible.

Two reasons for this:
1. Pressure from the bottom arm blocks the shoulders, accelerating the hips without shortening the radius of the whole system. Instead the vaulter has changed the pivot point and transfered energy to the hips and legs for an accelerated swing.
2. Pressure from the bottom arm also maintains pole compression, keep the chord short and allowing it to rotate toward the back of the pit faster.

The vaulter in the hollow position effectively accelerates the swing by changing the pivot point, thus changing the position of the center of mass of the pendulum. The angular momentum is thus transferred to the hips, and the hips go up.

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Re: pushing back out during the swing?

Unread postby IAmTheWalrus » Thu Sep 26, 2013 2:32 pm

Eric,

First of all, thank you for the well reasoned and respectful disagreement with my post. I greatly appreciate healthy debate and thoughtful replies.

I don't disagree with what you said re: the gymnast and the lowering of the COM. However, I would like to add a few points of my own as it relates to vaulting.

1) As far as the images go, I am not convinced that Bubka is not pulling. My understanding based on posts from Agapit and my own experiences is that the vaulter's bottom arm can still extend prior to and during the pull as a result of the rapid flexion of the pole. I think that takeoff posture and position play a bog role in this, as do the vaulter's immediate reaction to the pole strike. I believe that a similar still shot of my vault would yield a level of left arm extension between that of Isaakson and Bubka, showing that, at the very least, a level of left arm extension beyond that which Isaakson displays can be achieved while pulling. I think that creating space and having a tall upspringing takeoff are key to pulling while maintaining separation from the pole.

2) I think the time element is of paramount importance. Again, as stated by Agapit, (Roman), and reaffirmed through DJ's research, there is a finite amount of time to complete the vault, therefore lowering one's COM (which may increase penetration or allow for usage of a stiffer pole) may come at the expense of maximal vertical velocity, especially since there is a limit to the acceleration of a human's COM through this range of motion. I'm sure that's a confusing sentence. What I mean is, if you could instantaneously achieve maximum swing speed and an inverted position, than it would probably be in your benefit to hang as long as possible, and then instantly flip over and fly off the pole. Either way, time is limited on the pole.

3) While you can accelerate your swing by shortening the radius, this merely conserves angular momentum. Accelerating the swing through muscular work by the left arm/lats adds energy to the vaulter/pole system by INCREASING total angular momentum.

4) Just to be clear, any increase in the time during which the pole is bent achieved by pushing the left arm is due to the lowering of the COM, not because the vaulter is literally pushing the pole into a bent position. I assume you agree with this?

5) Thank you for comparing me to Isaakson and calling me an accomplished vaulter.

For the record, prior to adopting (or trying to adopt) Roman's 6.40 model I was an advocate of pushing with the left arm. I do believe that on my best vaults I pulled subconsciously (I was just thinking of "putting everything into the swing" which apparently included my left arm pulling), but regardless, I recognize that not pulling is a viable method of vaulting. I have however seen many vaulters coached to excellent runs and takeoffs who could not effectively swing their hips above their shoulders. I do believe that this is due to excessive left arm force directed into the pole.

Thank you for your well reasoned post, I hope that mine has aided in your understanding of the pull and it's benefits. At the very least I hope it made sense , haha.
-Nick

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Re: pushing back out during the swing?

Unread postby altius » Thu Sep 26, 2013 8:41 pm

Talk is cheap PVDaddy and your ramblings and rants depreciate the talk on this forum every time you pontificate on any topic. So its simple -SHOW US FILM of the athletes you are coaching and explain to us exactly how you are teaching them to invert.
Its what you learn after you know it all that counts. John Wooden

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Re: pushing back out during the swing?

Unread postby PVDaddy » Fri Sep 27, 2013 1:31 am

Altius, I have my own ideas about inversion and plans for coaching it, but why would you be interested if its all senseless ramblings?

I ask you this same question for the third time, are you still promoting the bottom arm pull in the downswing?
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Re: pushing back out during the swing?

Unread postby Pogo Stick » Fri Sep 27, 2013 2:46 am

PVDaddy wrote: Also PVstudent draw all the Muller optical illusion lines you like and study them to your hearts content and complicate it all you like with your sophisticated jargon!


I cannot resist:
http://www.dilbert.com/2013-09-26/
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