pushing back out during the swing?

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Re: pushing back out during the swing?

Unread postby IAmTheWalrus » Sun Jun 02, 2013 1:20 pm

I'm pretty sure that's Renaud Lavillenie jumping in Eugene Oregon yesterday.
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Re: pushing back out during the swing?

Unread postby Chaebo » Sun Jun 02, 2013 1:25 pm

haha valid point. Looking back that is him lol. Foot in mouth. :o His brother's name is Valentin who is a vaulter as well. As I states above on his first attempt (Not his brother) his pop/push back of the bottom arm during rotation was obvious during the first vault and still appears to be chained to the tuck. Also, after looking at Valentin's vaults he does not appear to use the same bottom hand pressure during the swing to inversion. But still uses a very similar tuck.

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Re: pushing back out during the swing?

Unread postby PVDaddy » Sun Jun 02, 2013 11:20 pm

C'mon Chaebo, haven't the experts on here educated you yet? Don't you know it's just an optical illusion? His bottom hand is just chasing the pole as it bends and he is in fact pulling the entire time! Just like the M-640 model says we should! Just as the old timers use to, immediately after take off. Just as other Altius say we should! After all he has to be, he's currently the best in the world?

On a serious note, for us wannabee experts, who like to believe what their eyes are seeing and their common sense tells them. Yes he is indeed extending his bottom arm forward hard (Pushing) in line with pole, after penetration. Just as Bubka did. Just as Walker does. Just as coach Kyle Ellis does and coaches his athletes with great success doing it! Just as world class gymnast push on the high bar during their downswing for the TAP. Just as Petrov says we should.

World class gymnast coaches say that its extremely important, as keeps the gymnast as far away from the bar as possible. Therefore causing your center of gravity to be as low as Possible, Which increase the power of your swing because it maintains pressure on your swing. Makes me think of a pole vault video I had, constantly reminded me, to stay behind the pole. Perhaps that's a different subject?

Guess what happens to every single vaulter as they extend pressure with their bottom hand? You guessed it, their body moves further AWAY from the pole! Look at Lavellenie's video. Look at Walkers video. Look at Bubka's video. Why would that happen if he's pulling?

He should be pulling immediately in the swing though right? After all, that's when the old timers on stiff pole did! Oh Did they? Or did they pull during the UPSWING, as I have been advocating here and right along in Agenda 21, At the moment they break at the hips and must fight the force of gravity? That's how the world class gymnast teach it on the High bar.They also teach to push out during the downswing like Lavelllenie is doing! Why would that not apply to the pole vault as well ? Especially since the flexible pole actually places the arms in a horizontal position like the high bar, verses the severe angle the stiff pole does. Even so, Look at the video of my PV hero, Cornelius Warmerdam vaulting in New York, in 1942, on a non bending pole. Note the difference of arm position and the angle of the pole after take off. You decide where the pulling action is taking place? His vault starts at frame :52

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45i9obrDZUU
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Re: pushing back out during the swing?

Unread postby KirkB » Mon Jun 03, 2013 12:21 am

PVDaddy wrote: World class gymnast coaches say that its extremely important, as keeps the gymnast as far away from the bar as possible. Therefore causing your center of gravity to be as low as possible, Which increase the power of your swing because it maintains pressure on your swing.

Guess what happens to every single vaulter as they extend pressure with their bottom hand? You guessed it, their body moves further AWAY from the pole!

Oh! :confused:

Is THAT what you think is happening on the pole? That the vaulters are just getting a longer radius on their swing? :confused:

I underlined the part of your post where you say gymnasts do this. You're absolutely right about that. :yes:

But think about it PVDaddy: Gymnasts are swinging on a highbar with both palms facing the same direction (usually), and when they do a giant they are swinging at a right angle to the longitude of the highbar. This is why they should "PRESS and SQUEEZE" as they swing around the bar.

HOWEVER, Vaulters are NOT swinging this way until after the pole is at full bend, when the pole "becomes a highbar". Until then, the pole starts out bending in the direction of the faceplate of the box (towards the pit), and during the downswing it rotates to be bending towards the side of the box. During this time, it is NOT the same as a highbar! :no:

During this time, any pressure on the bottom arm (shoulder, hand, whatever) is actually slowing down their swing. It is blocking the vaulter from swinging!

Yes, it's bending the pole more than if they didn't press. BUT IT'S BLOCKING THE VAULTER FROM SWINGING! They won't invert early enough (without a tuck or a pike) if they do this. So they won't be able to shoot off the top of the pole as well.

If you don't understand that, then maybe you will understand this ...

If a GYMNAST were to swing in the direction of from one highbar upright to the other upright (I know this is impossible because the uprights and the bar will get in the way - the bar won't move out of the way like the pole does - but just imagine), what do you think would happen to his swing if he applied pressure on his "bottom arm" (the arm that's furthest in front of him)?

First of all, he couldn't grip the highbar with both palms on the same side of the bar. It would HAVE to be a mixed grip - just like a vaulter's grip (or a golfer's grip) with thumbs pointing towards each other. Grab a broomstick and walk yourself thru this (don't just imagine it). Make sure you hold it a couple feet apart - like Bubka, not like Warmerdam.

You're absolutely right that the radius of the vaulter would be longer this way. But the catch is that your bottom arm would be blocking out.

Think about this hard, and give me your answer. I sure hope you "get" it after this, because it's been a long haul! :dazed:

If you don't see this after what I've just explained, then I give up. [sigh]

Kirk
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Re: pushing back out during the swing?

Unread postby PVDaddy » Mon Jun 03, 2013 1:15 am

Kirk:
Is THAT what you think is happening on the pole? That the vaulters are just getting a longer radius on their swing? :confused:


No I did not say that I said:

its extremely important, as keeps the gymnast as far away from the bar as possible. Therefore causing your center of gravity to be as low as Possible, Which increase the power of your swing


I said:
Guess what happens to every single vaulter as they extend pressure with their bottom hand? You guessed it, their body moves further AWAY from the pole!


Look at the videos Kirk. You do not think that when the vaulters extend their bottom arms forward their bodies are moving AWAY fro the pole? :no:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=p ... Bd0bhcps08 and https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=p ... Bd0bhcps08

Yes or no? And if it does, does that increase the radius of their swing? If you think that it also increases the radius of their swing, is that a good thing or bad?






its extremely important, as keeps the gymnast as far away from the bar as possible. Therefore causing your center of gravity to be as low as Possible, Which increase the power of your swing
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Re: pushing back out during the swing?

Unread postby KirkB » Mon Jun 03, 2013 1:18 am

Besides my last post (asserting that bottom arm pressure slows down your swing), I have 3 more points to make ...

1. You do NOT have to apply bottom arm pressure to bend the pole. (Nothing new here, you've heard this from me - and many others - quite often).

2. You do NOT have to steer the pole to the side of the box so that you won't hit it as you swing past it. This happens automatically!

3. If you are stiff-pole vaulting, the pole will NOT automatically bend out of the way. Warmerdam and the pre-fiber vaulters solved this problem by swinging AROUND the pole. And this is what I did too, in Jr. HS on my steel, bamboo, and aluminum poles. There is no other way!

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Re: pushing back out during the swing?

Unread postby KirkB » Mon Jun 03, 2013 1:22 am

You still don't get it.[sigh]

Yes, the bottom arm pressure gets you away from the pole. But so what? It doesn't "maximize your swing radius" because you're not yet swinging equally with both arms. Done right, you should be swinging around the radius of your TOP hand! :idea:

The bottom arm should NOT come into play until you're about halfway thru your downswing (just roughly, don't quote me on that). Prior to that, the less you PUSH or PULL with your bottom arm, the more you will swing around the [long] radius of the top hand down to the trail leg toe.

If you swing around BOTH arms, your swing won't be as powerful. You need to maximize the radius of your swing around your TOP hand, not both hands.

The objective is NOT to keep your center of gravity low. It's quite the opposite! You need to RAISE your CoG just as quickly as you can! All the way up and over the bar! You do this by swinging from the TOP hand only, getting inverted as quickly as possible, and all the while raising your CoG a QUICK as you can.

Any attempt to "hang" in a low position is futile - you're wasting valuable time, and you're not getting inverted. Most important of all, you're not going UP. Up! The rotational force of a powerful downswing gets you inverted and adds energy to the system. Beyond that, any attempt to "stay low" is a passive phase that MUST be eliminated!

Suppose that a gymnast slowed down his swing. And suppose he had to muscle his way out of that, to recover. How many points do you think he'll be awarded for THAT technique? :confused:

You haven't picked up that broomstick and walked thru this in slo-mo yet, have you? I KNOW you haven't, because you STILL don't get it. :dazed:

I give up.

Kirk
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Re: pushing back out during the swing?

Unread postby IAmTheWalrus » Mon Jun 03, 2013 7:19 am

Yes, pushing into the pole does move the vaulter away from the pole... and towards the ground. Why is this advantageous? Obviously lowering the center of mass will increase penetration, but to what end? As Roman and Branko have already pointed out, the vault is limited in time (~1.5s), and the goal is to get your body as high as possible. Any lowering of the COM just adds to the distance that it needs to be raised later in the vault. Keep the goal of the vault in mind: getting over the bar? Who cares if you are gripping 10cm less if you are vaulting 30cm higher. Bubka could have gripped higher, but he held where he did for a reason, that's where his entire vault was efficient, and he was able to continuously put energy into the vault without pausing.
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Re: pushing back out during the swing?

Unread postby PVDaddy » Mon Jun 03, 2013 9:14 am

Didnt have time to fully respond to everything you said yesterday Kirk.

You also said
: HOWEVER, Vaulters are NOT swinging this way until after the pole is at full bend, when the pole "becomes a highbar". Until then, the pole starts out bending in the direction of the faceplate of the box (towards the pit), and during the downswing it rotates to be bending towards the side of the box. During this time, it is NOT the same as a highbar!

The fact that the pole bend to the left side (for a right hander) during the down swing is not news to me or anyone else here. Regardless of this fact the result of extending the bottom hand forward has the same result as a gymnast on a high bar. The timing of the PUll is the most important aspect of the use of the arms and you make my point for me that when the Vaulter is in the upswing the pole is most like the highbar :yes:

During this time, any pressure on the bottom arm (shoulder, hand, whatever) is actually slowing down their swing. It is blocking the vaulter from swinging! :no:

Is that why Bubka, Lavellenie and Walker extend their bottom (Pushing out) hand forward during their down swing because it slows them down? Does it slow down the Gymnast? No it does not ,just like it does not slow down the vaulter in. fact it speeds it up for many reasons I have already fully described!

Yes, it's bending the pole more than if they didn't press. BUT IT'S BLOCKING THE VAULTER FROM SWINGING! They won't invert early enough (without a tuck or a pike) if they do this. So they won't be able to shoot off the top of the pole as we
:no:

Its not blocking their swing, just like its not blocking the gymnast swing. Its HELPING their swing for 4 reasons!!!! 1) It maintains pressure on the full body coil through out the entire downswing ,therefore causing it to be faster 2) It placed their center of gravity lower, creating a longer more powerful pendulum with a longer radius. 3) It assist the pole to rotate toward vertical 4) It does
indeed, help the pole to bend more. The fact that Lavellenie and some other vaulters tuck and shoot is the reason why they cant invert as well as Bubka (Negative inversion, Ie Covering the ARC of the pole with your legs and hips (Petrov)

I
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Re: pushing back out during the swing?

Unread postby KirkB » Mon Jun 03, 2013 4:35 pm

KirkB wrote: The objective is NOT to keep your center of gravity low. It's quite the opposite! You need to RAISE your CoG just as quickly as you can! All the way up and over the bar! You do this by swinging from the TOP hand only, getting inverted as quickly as possible, and all the while raising your CoG a QUICK as you can.

IAmTheWalrus wrote: Yes, pushing into the pole does move the vaulter away from the pole... and towards the ground. ... Obviously lowering the center of mass will increase penetration, but to what end? As Roman and Branko have already pointed out, the vault is limited in time (~1.5s), and the goal is to get your body as high as possible. Any lowering of the COM just adds to the distance that it needs to be raised later in the vault. Keep the goal of the vault in mind: getting over the bar ...
:yes:

PVDaddy, you are being very stubborn about insisting on your so-called Agenda 21, yet you have absolutely no practical experience in vaulting or coaching to back up your theories!

Myself, Walrus, Roman, Branko, CoachEric and Altius (and others) have told you this in various ways, but you just won't listen. Combined, we have HUNDREDS of years of PRACTICAL experience with this!

So please stop your unqualified ranting! It makes no sense to us, and you're only confusing any vaulters that might be reading your posts that aren't already wary of taking what you have to say with a grain of salt. Or a ton of salt! :confused:

This is SERIOUSLY hampering your ability to understand the technical aspects of pole vaulting, which in turn will seriously hamper your ability to coach your kids effectively.

PVDaddy wrote:The fact that Lavellenie and some other vaulters tuck and shoot is the reason why they cant invert as well as Bubka

And WHY do you suppose they can't invert as well? Could it be that they're applying pressure with their bottom are WHICH IS KEEPING THEIR CoG TOO LOW, and SLOWING DOWN THEIR SWING? :idea:

I give up. :crying:

Kirk
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Re: pushing back out during the swing?

Unread postby KirkB » Mon Jun 03, 2013 4:50 pm

PVDaddy wrote:4) It does indeed, help the pole to bend more.

So what? What would you rather do - bend the pole more, or vault higher? :confused:

I absolutely AGREE that bottom arm pressure bends the pole more. No argument there. But it does this at the expense of slowing down the swing, and slowing down the inversion. :no:

You just don't "get" it! Even when the answers are staring you in the face! [sigh]

The answers are well-documented on PVP, and have been for over 5 years now, not just by myself, but by many other coaches and pundits - all of whom have far superior knowledge and experience in coaching and vaulting than yourself!

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Re: pushing back out during the swing?

Unread postby Chaebo » Tue Jun 04, 2013 10:52 am

Sorry I just had a bit of an epiphany but correct me if I'm wrong.

We have an argument here between persons who believe you do not push back during the swing (Post Elastic Phase) because the pole will naturally uncoil which causes the false image of the pole uncoiling through bottom hand pressure. This also doesn't block the hips.

And others who are arguing that a vaulter should extend the arm through the pole (Post Elastic Phase) to speed swing rotation to assist in getting inverted which DOES NOT block the hips.


OK, So if this is correct I am gonna put myself in a very vulnerable position here and slightly disagree with both sides....... To me it appears to be obvious that many successful vaulters have achieved great success by doing either of the above. As well as I''m starting to see many different vault models aside from just the Petrov model. My point being is I believe that the dispute here is being blown out of proportion and that this element of the vault is ultimately passive. Doesn't mean I'm saying that the bottom hand extenders are wrong nor am I saying those who oppose it are correct.

What I'm trying to establish is that maybe JUST MAYBE it really doesn't matter! If the bottom arm doesn't push back out a vaulter with a good swings arm will still extend regardless due the coil of the pole..... While as a vaulter using that arm is simply trying to assist in that motion but in all reality barely putting any influence on the pole at all due to its natural coiling motion.

Now as for blocking the hips like i stated above the pushing back will have little influence on the pole due to the natural coiling motions of the pole after a swing has been initiated. Which also tells me that in fact a vaulter would ultimately be unable to block their hips with this arm pressure due to the little to no resistance of the pole.

Both vaulters break at the hips at the same time despite which method above they might use. Also, these vaulters all begin to initiate the first steps leading into their fly away phase as the pole starts to close the space between them that was created by the swing (Not the bottom hand pressure) which would ultimately also support the fact that they can not in fact block their hips if there is not pressure back into that bottom hand.

So, what my final verdict is....... IT DOESN'T REALLY MATTER!

Again, I am no biomechanics professional by any means but this it was seems to make sense to me. And I sometimes feel that our people here are clouding their judgement by not keeping an open mind. I maybe wrong, I maybe very wrong but for me like i said this only make sense from my readings and observations.


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