pushing back out during the swing?

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Re: pushing back out during the swing?

Unread postby AVC Coach » Fri May 31, 2013 1:07 pm

Great analogy, Kirk. I think the short stop would simply lunge toward his target with the throwing hand never leaving it's orginal position. The wind up occurs and power is generated while the body was moving toward it's goal. Just like when we finish our take-off in the vault. My thoughts......

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Re: pushing back out during the swing?

Unread postby ADTF Academy » Fri May 31, 2013 1:39 pm

I would say the way that the given SS can get the ball to first base before the runner.....


If we look at 5 Short Stops each SS may do it differently. If all 5 are Gold Glovers doing it differently than the next questions would be is it the way they get the ball to first base the important factor or that they get the ball to first base before the runner? Each SS takes into account their strengths and weaknesses and has learned how to get the ball out of their glove and to first base as fast as they can. Is there really one way?



With that being said. Everyone seems to argue the fine points the real questions is can the bar stay up or does the bar fall. We can all second guess when it falls. I'll take the guy or girl who can make the bar stay up ugly than the pretty jumper that seems to always have the bar fall. Pole Vault is a matter of who can jump the highest I think it would be good to remember that at times.

K.I.S.S would be a great point to remember for some of you. Velocity, Grip and Push.... The rest is just words to argue. How to get a vaulter from the start of their approach to max heights is easy on paper but challenging in practice. Keep fighting the paper game some are out proving it in the real world.

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Re: pushing back out during the swing?

Unread postby grandevaulter » Fri May 31, 2013 2:11 pm

If I were to use the SS analogy with one of my beginners or even an intermediate, the would look at me like I am crazy. It makes no difference in our minds unless we can get the vaulter to connect the dots. (drills, short approaches and full approach vaults)

Using beginner and advanced drills, (they're the same) cues and a solid approach make this automatic. Time to take it out to the pit gentlemen.

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Re: pushing back out during the swing?

Unread postby grandevaulter » Fri May 31, 2013 2:18 pm

Some words do not translate between their own dialects. English and German are both Germanic languages and do not translate word for word or sentence for sentence . It is amazing that the world is so small and the meaning of thoughts can not be translated into words. So it you don't have a foundation in Slavic languages or Russian, I wouldn't dare to guess what Petrov was trying to say. Agapit knows what he means. Go ask him.

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Re: pushing back out during the swing?

Unread postby coachjvinson » Fri May 31, 2013 6:29 pm

notice the location of the bottom hand, not saying this is ideal... interesting position to be pushing or pressing from... kind of an overhead tricep press... using a 520 (10.6) for resistance...

so Bubka could have been criticized as a "FibreHead" ;) ;)
I'll put that label on a tee and wear it proudly...

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BUBKA 88'
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Re: pushing back out during the swing?

Unread postby KirkB » Fri May 31, 2013 9:49 pm

Interesting pic! I know he won the Gold in the 1988 Olympics with 5.90, but do you happen to know whether this was his winning jump, a warmup jump, or?

On his first 6.00 jump - in 1985 - he had more space between his head and his hands.

What might be different between his 5.90 here and his 6.00 in 1985?

In this jump, it looks to me like he's under, and his body posture is bad - it looks like he was leaning back on takeoff.

Even with both of these flaws (if true - can't tell unless you see the full vid), he was athletic enough to clear 5.50+, maybe even 5.70 or 5.90.

Regardless, it does prove that being a fiberhead is a good thing - not a bad thing. :idea:

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Re: pushing back out during the swing?

Unread postby coachjvinson » Fri May 31, 2013 10:10 pm

KirkB wrote:Interesting pic! I know he won the Gold in the 1988 Olympics with 5.90, but do you happen to know whether this was his winning jump, a warmup jump...

I believe this was the clearance just before the final clearance...
I will post the final clearance... the bottom hand isn't quite as pronounced as this one (i.e. fibreheaded), but it's close and within a few inches...
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Re: pushing back out during the swing?

Unread postby coachjvinson » Sat Jun 01, 2013 12:05 am

coachjvinson wrote:
KirkB wrote:Interesting pic! I know he won the Gold in the 1988 Olympics with 5.90, but do you happen to know whether this was his winning jump, a warmup jump...

I believe this was the clearance just before the final clearance...
I will post the final clearance... the bottom hand isn't quite as pronounced as this one (i.e. fibreheaded), but it's close and within a few inches...


These 2 are of the winning jump the first is at the initial point of calf flexion and pole tip contact in the box, the second is a few frames after...


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Re: pushing back out during the swing?

Unread postby PVDaddy » Sat Jun 01, 2013 1:05 am

Before I answer the question, I would like to say that I will be taking it out to the pit, in the real world, at out State finals tomorrow morning. That does not make me any better or worse then anyone attempting to understand the finer elements of this event.

Kirk:
What analogy do you think is closest to the PV stretch-whip - the shortstop or the fielder? Why?


The Fielder. Chances are the fielder is running toward the ball before throwing the runner out and using that forward momentum to assist his throwing effort. Similar to the vaulter running toward the pit. The fielder also has to throw the ball FURTHER than the short stop.. In order to do that he must use more of a full body effort to get it there in time. He is going to use his forward running momentum and step into his stretch as he throws, similar to how a vaulter runs and drives the knee into take-off. Were as the short stop could just side arm it. I am a fan of the Petrov model, therefore I believe the vaulter is whipping into his inversion, all the way to the top of the pole and not to a shoot and tuck and rowing. This require a full body effort similar to the fielder. The emphasis is on a longer swing as compared to a shorter swing for the tuck and shooter who probably would be more inclined to say the short stop. I would say the fielder made the better play of the two. They both had the same amount of time (The time it took for the batter to get to first) But the fielder had to run farther and throw farther. He also had to wait longer to get the ball in his glove. In other words, in pole vault terms, he had the fielder made a higher bar clearance.
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Re: pushing back out during the swing?

Unread postby coachjvinson » Sat Jun 01, 2013 1:57 am

KirkB wrote:What might be different between his 5.90 here and his 6.00 in 1985?

In this jump, it looks to me like he's under, and his body posture is bad - it looks like he was leaning back on takeoff.


Seems like I have heard that/read that he was running under here, but I cannot say for certain...

Even from a less than ideal take off position and posture, and without a preconceived notion/rule/idea that the pole most be "pushed out"... with the arms...
Bubka cleared 590 with great swing mechanics...
Among other things, the SWING "pushes" the pole... through centripetal force...
Swing=PoleSpeed...
Kirk, these are the ideas that I took from yours and Danny's posts several years ago...
Thank you...
V
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Re: pushing back out during the swing?

Unread postby altius » Sat Jun 01, 2013 2:27 am

[quote="coachjvinson"][quote="KirkB"]

Seems like I have heard that/read that he was running under here, but I cannot say for certain...

Yes - you might well have read it in BTB where that jump is discussed. It actually involved a discussion with Vitali in Barcelona that occurred as Bubby was in the process of no heighting there. But then you will have read much of what is posted on PVP before in that book - no quotes of course and just a hint of plagiarism. But there you go - if folk begin to get the right answers, it doesn't matter where they came from does it. I got many of mine from Petrov and I try to give him credit at every opportunity. In fact thinking about it I quite enjoy seeing my own words, sentences etc coming back to me. Enjoy yourselves folks but don't forget to do some coaching along the way. :D
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Re: pushing back out during the swing?

Unread postby Chaebo » Sun Jun 02, 2013 12:41 pm

This video was just posted by Renaud Lavillenie. I know Renaud does a major push back during his swing right following the I position but after seeing his brother Eugene here in the first jump of the video his what I thought was a major push seems so little compared to Eugene's. But no arguing that they do indeed both push back out. I also noticed there seems to be a direct connection between their tuck and push back seeing as the tuck always begins simultaniously with their bottom arm pushing out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=8Bd0bhcps08

Just thought that this video was perfect for this forum.


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