Pole vault definition

[PVstudent]

“Pole vaulting is the perpendicular expression of the horizontal speed prowess of a flighty gymnast in possession of a flexible pole, on which they exhibit vertiginous swinging proclivities in a public place whilst onlookers observe the height attained being measured by officials! Pole length and degree of stiffness in relation to the gymnast’s ability and body characteristics are critical factors in maximising creation of the perfect vault.”
(PV Student, April 2013).

PVdaddy please recognise that many of the readers of the advanced section have made your discoveries long before you thought of them.
Please also be be a little more generous in your attribution to the actual parentage of much of what you claim as yor own. Some of us recognise the origins and the real fathers and mothers of your ideas because we were there at their birth!

[PVDaddy]

Somebodies feelin a bit insecure! But since you brought it up do you mean how I was the first to use the term negative inversion here or the first to expound on it! You mean how I was the first to show the simulation of the swinging arms from the very first step to the last and expound on it? Waddever! LOL

[PVDaddy]

Pvstudent said:

PVdaddy please recognise that many of the readers of the advanced section have made your discoveries long before you thought of them.
Please also be be a little more generous in your attribution to the actual parentage of much of what you claim as yor own. Some of us recognise the origins and the real fathers and mothers of your ideas because we were there at their birth!

Now it time for you to be very specific PVstudent as to EXACTLY what Idea other than " The simulation of the swinging arm during pole casry" that I said was my own. If you are saying someone else said that and elaborated on it like I did I want direct proof with link to document!

[KirkB]

Somebodies feelin a bit insecure! ...

This is EXACTLY the problem with you posting on the Advanced Techique forum, PVDaddy.

Your analysis is simply WRONG!

In this case, you analysed that PVStudent was feeling insecure, and that's why he created this thread. YOU JUST DON'T GET IT!

Ditto re your analysis of some PV technique topics. They're either not original, or if they are, they're incorrect. And if they're incorrect, you try to bait us into explaining to you WHY they're incorrect, but if we explain why, you just don't listen. Thus, there's very little value to discussing your misunderstandings of proper PV technique with you.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: You're better off asking QUESTIONS on the Advanced Technique forum - instead of drawing your own conclusions and then soliciting our agreement.

I have absolutely no issue with you aggregating information that you've discovered from RELIABLE sources, like BTB2, Clymer, or Pfaff (with appropriate credits - where known). THAT is useful. THAT'S your niche.

Where I have an issue with your posts is when you attempt to add your two bits worth of analysis into the mix, claiming it to be your own (analysis), and insisting that you're right - yet you just got involved in PV when your son started vaulting a few years ago, you have no history as a PV coach, or educator, or biomechanics scientist, or world-class athlete. And quite frankly, I don't care if your grandfather is a PV champ - you can't ride your reputation on his shirt-tails! Yet you want us to accept your analysis as being revolutionary "state-of-the-art" ideas that are going to rock the PV world and boost the WR over 21 feet!

Gimme a break!

I'm not saying that I understand PVStudent perfectly either, because I'm not sure what his purpose was in writing a "pole vault definition". Maybe it was an attempt at humor, but I may have missed his point - sorry PVStudent. Thinking about it, I guess he's saying that anyone can make up their own definition of what PV means, put their name on it and date it, and the world should accept the definition as novel! AND then we should all discuss the merits of his definition.

So I guess I get his point after all - having a novel idea or definition doesn't mean that your idea or definition is a GOOD one, or a USEFUL one!

But maybe PVStudent's MAIN point is that your "original" ideas are not as original as you think they are?

I would add to PVStudent's point that the original ideas that you have may certainly be novel, but they're not necessarily based on science or the practical application of science in the PV domain. Rather, they appear to be your MISINTERPRETATION of a PV technique, based on your limited knowledge and experience in PV.

Now that I've said this, PVDaddy, I fully expect a rant from you challenging me to specifically where and when you said what, and we will argue back and forth, and in the end you will get frustrated at me for not understanding you, and I will get frustrated at you for not understanding me, and someone will make a personal attack on the other (e.g. "Someone's feeling insecure!"), and on and on, and then RG will lock the thread.

It's happened twice already, so don't say it's unlikely to happen again.

In your very first post on the Negative Inversion thread, you said ...

I would like to introduce a new concept to Pole Vault Power (I have searched through all the forums and cannot find were this has ever been discussed). A concept that I believe is imperative toward achieving a true vertical fly-away. A concept that will revolutionize and add tremendous height to your fly-away. A concept that I believe is imperative if one is to have chance at breaking a New World Record. I am adding this to Agenda 21. This concept is called............

NEGATIVE INVERSION!

Later, we discovered that "negative inversion" was a term coined by Pfaff and used by Clymer - NOT coined by you. Even when Clymer's vid was posted, you did not readily admit that Clymer and Pfaff had used the term before yourself.

And in my first reply on that thread, I said

I'm not at all impressed with the continual sparring that you're STILL having with Altius - seems like same-old, same-old. But that's between you and him - let's not go there, eh?

But you continue to "go there", and (I admit) I got picky about your typos and you felt personally attacked, and it escalated to the point that RG shut down the thread.

Your very first sentence to PVStudent was "Somebodies feelin a bit insecure!".

Again, let's not go there, eh? I mean that sincerely.

Kirk Bryde

[PVDaddy]

Kirk. I never said I "coined" the term negative Inversion in fact I specifically said I did not in an early thread. I could not find the article I read when I first heard it (Like I said perhaps it was Pfaffs?) so I did not know who to give the credit for. I did however make sure to use the same term because my original understanding of it came from that person. I believe I did a pretty good job of explaining its concept in my original post and the concept or the term was not excepted by many 'Experts" or was the term "negative Inversion" much liked by many. I happen to like the term and the concept. I think it offers many benefits. I believe many others do as well. I did not have the time to go to the link in Coachjvinsen's original post on

I also feel that the proper movement of the pole, the elbow, the shoulders and the hands in their relationship to the opposite stride leg are very detrimental to the speed and quality of the run and they do in fact simulate the same movement of the swinging arm with the opposite leg that occurs when a sprinter runs. The purpose of my thread was to bring attention to that fact and to explain why and how I feel Bubka does that so well. I did not find ANYWERE on PVP this has been focused on or expounded on? What is wrong with that?. I have chosen to call this concept "The simulation of the swinging arm".

Evidently you do not see it, or see any value in its concept, because you have had zero positive thing to say about it and ONLY critique and that's fine with me. I have no problem with that. Its your right to have your own opinion. I am not trying to coerce anyone. I only asked you to explain why? If you are going to say something is "A Joke" and that none of it was good or useful and you have used that very words when referring to my concepts, or other concepts I discover from others, please explain why? I am all ears! It's apparent You do not feel I have anything of value to contribute from my own mind and should be reduced to only asking questions. You can relax because after I put the final polish on Agenda 21, I will not be posting anymore, because I feel I have exhausted my analysis of pole vault technique and don't have much new to contribute. I am satisfied.

You also are greatly mistaken as I do have the ability and the desire to debate (I enjoy it.) as long as it is done in a polite and professional manner. I do not, however, have much respect for the use of intentional distractions from the subject matter because someone is so fearful of having their thunder stolen. I will admit that I have misunderstood someones intentions in the past. I believe we all have. I do however try my best to learn and expand my knowledge from others. You are also mistaken asI have no desire to quarrel with anyone (You included) but to only learn

Finally, I do no,t or find any pleasure, in riding anyone's shirt-tails either. Never have never will!

[KirkB]

I do not, however, have much respect for the use of intentional distractions from the subject matter because someone is so fearful of having their thunder stolen.

I've underlined the loaded words in your sentence. I call these loaded words because they are chock full of false assumptions and they draw incorrect conclusions. These words also border on being personal attacks.

I said let's not go there, and I meant it. You assumptions and conclusions are wrong, just as your assumption that PVStudent felt insecure was wrong, and just as some of your technical PV analysis are either wrong or obvious or already stated in other PV posts, articles, DVDs, or books. Enough said.

I actually like how Altius described the body motions during the pole-carry the best ...

Note that on Page213 of BTB2 I stated " Coaches should encourage athletes to think of using their arms as shock absorbers as they support the pole."

This is an excellent analogy that's immediately understandable by any vaulter or coach at any experience level! This analogy is concise, and doesn't lose the reader in minutiae. Notice how proper credit is given to the source of this info.

Re riding on shirt-tails ...

I do no,t or find any pleasure, in riding anyone's shirt-tails either. Never have never will!

Very strange - I could have sworn that I read your full-page rant about how you came from such an athletic family. I believe that you ranted about this to try to convince me that I should be more trusting re your analysis of PV technique. If that was not your intent, then my bad. I was sure that your explanation included your grandfather's athletic prowess. I was sure that more than half that lengthy post was all about your athletic ancestry. If that's not riding on the shirt-tails of other family members, then I give up.

Kirk Bryde

[PVstudent]

I am in no way insecure in regard to pole vault and my knowledge of modern technique. As a coach in this event the products of my coaching input have been tested in the arena at National Championships, World Championships, Olympic Games, Commonwealth Games as well as on the European Athletics Circuit.

PVdaddy, my succinct, somewhat tongue in cheek definition of pole vaulting, posted on April 1st, was intended to suggest you really have not been as original as you clearly think you are in regard to modern pole vault technique. It conveys in summary what your lengthy discourses contain and does this it a much less confrontational and aggressive style.

Kirk Bryde spelled it out for you.

The following quotes provide some further thoughts on which to ruminate:

The camera makes everyone a tourist in other people’s reality, and eventually in one’s own.
Susan Sontag, New York Review of Books, 18 April 1974

The thing that is important is the thing that is not seen.
Antoine de Saint-Exupery, The Little Prince, (1943)

Intelligence is quickness to apprehend as distinct from ability, which is capacity to act wisely on the thing apprehended.
Alfred North Whitehead, Dialogues (1954), 15 December 1939

[altius]

Is this what is meant by the term "Going at it hammer and tongs?"

[PVDaddy]

Or tooth and nail.
The phrase that comes to mind for me is "Your so bust trying too remove the spec from my eye that you cant even see the beam in your own!
Thats not intended for you Altius.

[PVstudent]

PVdaddy good to see that perhaps you do have a sense of humour. But I remind you that in the land of the blind the one eyed man is king!

Please watch the advanced section for some of the realities of the Bubka-Petrov Model as demonstrated by some young vaulters here in Adelaide where we Antipodeans may be Down Under or even Negatively Inverted in the Coaching of Pole Vault!

[PVDaddy]

PVstudent, Look forward to seeing it! Both the Inversion and the run up?! When will you be posting it?

Also, what are your thoughts about my "simulation of the swinging arm theory" under the "Run fast like Bubka thread?
Do you train your vaulters to run like Bubka does in the video?

[PVstudent]

PVdaddy check out the Advanced section thread "And in the real world.......!"

Neither boy can run like Bubka! Nor should they.

It's the application of the pole approach run principles they should be adopting!

How well they adopt and efficiently apply them will reflect individual differences in body structures and capacities compared to Bubka.

That said both young lads are attempting to apply the principles of the run structure in regard to pole carriage, pole drop and plant. Both boys are attempting to maintain stride rhythm and controlled acceleration into the take-off. Body posture during the run is reasonably erect, but neither boy has sufficient acquired core and leg power to maintain the proper pelvis position and knee lift throughout the approach run. Also both boys have insufficient practice of specific sprint drills for pole vault approach speed development.

Have a look they do a good job with the capacities and experience they bring to the event IMHO.