Fourteen Year Gap in Modern PV Technique in the 1970s?

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Fourteen Year Gap in Modern PV Technique in the 1970s?

Unread postby KirkB » Sun Mar 24, 2013 11:21 pm

Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.

-- George Santayana --

There seems to be a blind spot of at least 14 years to many Petrov Model followers - Altius and Agapit included. I trace this back from the late 1960s to about 1981 - when Bubka first vaulted internationally. Though we've had many discussions on the board over the past 5 years to dispell some of these historical inaccuracies, they still seem to persist.

Case in point is Agapit claiming in his New Thinking thread (http://www.polevaultpower.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=27165&p=170134&hilit=m640#p170134) that before Bubka came along, vaulters strived to take off "under".

He did clarify his comments by saying that he was referring to RUSSIAN vaulters in the MID 1960s, but this still proves my point that there's at least a 14 year gap in his history of the pole vault, since myself, Isaksson, Roberts, and Tulley did NOT - by any stretch of the imagination - strive to take off "under" in our heydays of 1968-1978 (the period of time from when Isaksson first vaulted on the world stage - in the Mexico City Olympics, no less - to Tulley's 5.71 WR).

While I can understand that Petrov had never heard of myself (I was 8" under Chris Papanicolaou's WR in 1971), I cannot understand why the technique that resulted in the WRs of Isaksson, Roberts, and Tulley have been ignored. Isaksson, Roberts, and Tulley were all Olympians, so their technique should not have been a secret to Petrov - and probably wasn't (since he was such an astute student of the vault who left no technical stone unturned).

Altius does recognize (here: http://www.polevaultpower.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=25888&p=165709&hilit=slusarski+video#p165709), however, that Tadeusz Slusarski had a free takeoff when he won the Gold in the 1976 Olympics, but it took quite a bit of wrangling for us to jointly discover the old footage that proved this a few years ago. I'm wondering if Agapit has seen this footage? And if he has, if he still thinks that Bubka was the first vaulter to have a free takeoff?

You can see a couple of Isaksson's vids posted on this PVP thread: http://www.polevaultpower.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=17391&p=140981&hilit=isaksson+video#p140981. And here's a great vid of all the 1970s vaulter's that I mentioned (credit to Bruce Caldwell): http://www.essxpv.com/the-elusive-bar-remixed/

I'm not trying to stir the pot - I'm merely trying to ensure the historical accuracy of any claims made by Petrov followers that Bubka and Petrov indeed POPULARIZED some of these concepts, but certainly didn't INVENT them.

This is why I also remind the readers on this forum - from time to time - that Kjell Isaksson was the originator of the high pole carry. I may have been the SECOND, but I was certainly not the FIRST! And Isaksson never pushed with his bottom hand in 1971, and neither did I! The shorter distance between our hands (I don't know what Isaksson's was, but mine was 22") was also due to our high pole carries - yet Agapit has written that it was Bubka that first shortened the grip distance between his hands.

I discovered - by copying Isaksson's technique - that I could not only make the pole feel lighter down the runway, but I could also get into a better PLANT position with a higher bottom hand grip, and I could drop the pole almost WEIGHTLESSLY. These are significant advantages that anyone that uses this technique will discover.

Bubka and Petrov may have reached these conclusions independent of myself and Isaksson, but they certainly weren't the first ones to USE that technique - they just POPULARIZED it, due to Bubka's phenomenal success, and due to the publicity that surrounded his success (including the writing of BTB1 and BTB2).

On his new website http://www.m640.com, Agapit says ...
The early leader of this school of thought was Vitaly Petrov, who applied this New Thinking with Bubka with results we all know.

They have transformed the pole vaulting into the athletic event away from circus acrobatic. They have introduced many concepts that today people simply take for granted, for example “free takeoff”, or not resisting the pole with the bottom arm, and some others.

I think recognition by Altius and Agapit of the vaulters of the late 1960s and early 1970s re these historical issues would go a long ways towards their credibility. Personally, I already think they're CREDIBLE - and I love all of their writings - I just think they could be MORE CREDIBLE by being more historically accurate.

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Re: Fourteen Year Gap in Modern PV Technique in the 1970s?

Unread postby altius » Mon Mar 25, 2013 2:53 am

“I think recognition by Altius and Agapit of the vaulters of the late 1960s and early 1970s re these historical issues would go a long ways towards their credibility. Personally, I already think they're CREDIBLE - and I love all of their writings - I just think they could be MORE CREDIBLE by being more historically accurate.” Kirk McBryde.

I believe that is what is called being damned by faint praise, but I suppose anything that is not an outright criticism must be seen as positive in the present state of discussion on PVP.

I think I could better understand the desire for credit for ones methods and ideas if the folk concerned had a copyright on those ideas and were actually making money every time they were used, but for the life of me I cannot understand the degree of angst involved when this is not the case - at least I assume its not the case. If you want to get upset - if you are inclined to do so – then I suggest that you write a book and then wait to see your ideas – even words - being quoted back at you. But instead of being upset, be happy that folk are picking up some good stuff and making it their own, and hopefully basing their coaching on it.

“but it took quite a bit of wrangling for us to jointly discover the old footage that proved this a few years ago.” Where did the, ‘for us to jointly discover the old footage”, come from? How were you involved Kirk old son?? As far as I am aware the film of Slusarski came from a great French film made by Jacques Piasenta, which Steve Rippon sent to me a few years ago and which I sent on to Sean Brown to promote. But there appears to be so much that I don’t know about, it hardly seems worth bothering.

Now let me say that I am well aware that most great “ideas” have much deeper roots than is first thought. Even Christianity and Islam both have far deeper roots than is generally realized – hope that this does not upset anyone. Then Einstein owed much to the earlier work of Maxwell – as of course does the modern electronics industry. I understand that parallel invention/development can take place - as with Newton and Leibnitz with the calculus, and Darwin and Wallace with evolution. However it is important to note that Darwin got the credit – and even now the opprobrium – because he published first. And that is a critical point.

How was I to supposed to know about all of the developments you made? I was a field event coach in the USA from 1967 until 1973. I was immersed in researching everything I could about these events and considering the alternative technical models in all of the throws and jumps. I was the probably the first Englishman to see the Fosbury Flop (Mason Dixon Games, Louisville January 1998) with its major implications for the future direction of high jump. I saw the introduction of the spin in the shot, looked at what Jay Silvester was saying about the discus and comparing that to what Mac Wilkins and Piatkowski were doing - writing a seminal article on active landings in the triple jump for Scholastic Coach –meeting as many of the great athletes as I could – Feurbach, Matson, Woods, Oldfield, Sonsky and the list goes on – to find out what they were doing and why they did it. When I had to take on the sprinters at WKU the first thing I did was to travel up to Indiana University and spend a day with Sam Bell, picking his brains. Ironically some of what I learned from him can be seen in the drills “Harold Abrahams” does in that great film, “Chariots of fire”!!!!

So it should be pretty clear that I am an avid student of anything I am interested in, so how did I not know about what you were doing in Canada - or what other athletes and coaches were doing in the USA? Perhaps I missed something in Track Technique, Athletic Journal or Scholastic Coach. Apart from reading the text of Petrovs speech in 1985 everything else I have read in the vault came from him, Bubka or other Russian coaches such as Jagodin and Volkov. If you can send me articles published before BTB1 ten years or so ago, that detail your ideas, I will read them with interest.

Then again I must ask, if you were employing these ideas in your technique – and I am not saying you did not – why did you not jump higher? Average kids like Patrick Jesser 19 and Matt Filsell 20 jumped 5.40 and 5.45 respectively in a less that perfect training environment, never committing more than four sessions a week and both with jobs. Just a thought – also worth looking at how high great athletes like Seagren and Pennel jumped even at their peak. I like Isaakson’s technique, especially in the inversion, but why did he not jump higher? What was missing?

I have never claimed to have invented anything new in the pole vault, although my notion of the flexible pole as an infinite series of straight poles MAY BE an original contribution. My role has been to try and clarify and simply the Petrov/Bubka model; if you don’t think I have done a good enough job then tough titty, as they say in Paris. But I can hardly give credit in my writing if I don’t know who to give credit to. For example a little earlier someone pulled me up for not giving Vern Wolfe credit in the evolution of the pole vault. I had heard of him but never met him, spoken to him nor read anything he had written so how could I give him any credit in the evolution of my ideas??

Readers will gather that I am becoming a bit fed up with all of this; I am beginning to think that my car really does need cleaning! So please do not come back with rebuttals etc. I have always appreciated your contributions Kirk, but I believe this issue is becoming your achilles heel. But I suppose we all have one of those!
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Re: Fourteen Year Gap in Modern PV Technique in the 1970s?

Unread postby ADTF Academy » Mon Mar 25, 2013 8:42 am

Great Minds search deeper


Weak Minds follow leaders



In the US and I'm sure around the world Fades come and go. Take an old principle and put a cool name on it and now everyone is into it such as cross fit. Circuit training has been around for decades yet its the most amazing new trend to some like it was invented out of the blue.


Before I ever met Petrov or Alan or anyone for that matter I also was in the middle of no where with a bunch of stick drawings I made while working with vaulters and listening to lectures on things not even related to pole vault (sports science stuff). I came up with manuals and diagrams and a process to teach. I worked with athletes on these things. Most in the area thought I was a tad crazy with my teachings. Top kid at the time went 5 meters in high school than another 5.10. In a three year period had 3 athletes over 16'. First time ever went to Reno, Petrov and Alan spoke and bam all the things I had done myself were confirmed and talked about as though they were old news on stage. The few that were there with me shook there head and said maybe your not crazy. Maybe I still am though who knows.

My point being I'm sure the guy who invited the wheel wasn't the first to use the wheel. He just got credit for it. Personally all the names you talk about Kirk I look at as much or more so than Bubka. It's not like Warnerdam was the first to stiff pole he just did it higher than anyone else. Despite the constant outpour that others where better athletes and blah blah blah. I have met Sergey on a few occasions and still today he makes most men look small. His body structure is still quite remarkable for an athlete. I can't imagine when he was in his prime.

With that being said Petrov himself has only publish a few things that I have ever seen, its the work of Alan and others who have tried to bring his principles to light. I don't think I have ever heard him come out and say he is the father of modern pole vault. For me it's like any legend of the past they are only as great as the stories that are carried out about them. I've had the honor to met Petrov and hear stories from other athletes about him. Nothing but respect..... He has worked with a lot of great athletes the equivalent of Dan Pafft here in the US. For that matter Greg Hull has coached two athletes to gold Medals....

There is a reason why the basic principles of pole vaulting many to most of us believe in no matter what generation you come from. It's common sense!!! Now due to the publishings of some and the constant push by others to credit Petrov for them that those who couldn't figure it out on their own have given credit towards seeing the light to Petrov. So be it. I'll state it over and over I do not teach the principles of Petrov. He never taught, mentored or educated me. I've never been to a clinic of his. I've only seen short videos of him coaching. Yet I still came up with the same concepts on my own. How is that possible. LOGIC! I take into account many of the things presented by so many people and blend cues that work best for the individual athlete in front of me. However, at the end of the day an Athlete he worked with jumped higher than anyone in history so does that by fault makes his principles correct?

We all talk correct technique and education here. There is a reason a stud athlete who was never coached finds a way to jump high. Over time and by trial and error they tend to use many of the principles we want in a vaulter. It's the ones who are over coached at a young age into doing things wrong that tend to never reach their potential. Or sad to say some will never jump high no matter how much technique you poor into them. We all have limits. Basic human movements are just that no matter the title you give them.


Here is a new phrase and credit me for it.

Pole Vault like an ATHLETE!!!!!!

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Re: Fourteen Year Gap in Modern PV Technique in the 1970s?

Unread postby KirkB » Mon Mar 25, 2013 12:48 pm

KirkB wrote:I'm not trying to stir the pot - I'm merely trying to ensure the historical accuracy of any claims made by Petrov followers that Bubka and Petrov indeed POPULARIZED some of these concepts, but certainly didn't INVENT them.

That's it in a nutshell. Nothing more, nothing less.

I don't blame you - Alan - for not mentioning the 1970s vaulters in BTB1 or BTB2. That's not my point. What I'm trying to say is that now that we on PVP have correctly identified to you, Agapit, and other Petrov followers (such as Clymer) that Bubka did NOT originate many of the ideas that were incorrectly documented as having originated by him and Petrov (free takeoff, high pole carry, narrower grip, weightless pole drop, swinging technique, extending technique, "negative inversion", etc, etc, I feel that we all (you, me, Agapit, Clymer ...) have a responsibility to report history as it truly unfolded - not as we THOUGHT it unfolded.

I don't think this is too much to ask. As an anology, many world history books have been wrong, but over time, they've been corrected. Readers had to separate the biased reporting of some historians out from the true historical content. Today, with most (not all) of the biased historical reports of world history weeded out (slavery and the cold war - to name 2 examples), we can read and learn about historical events with a lot more accuracy. Personally, I want to know the FACTS - not a one-sided writer's OPINION of the facts. On a much smaller scale than the history of the world, that's all I'm suggesting within the confines of historical events in the evolution of PV techniques. The 1970s had a definite place in this history!

I'm not suggesting that BTB3 must be written with a chapter on the 1970s. I know (or so I've been told) there won't be a BTB3. I'm merely suggesting that NEW forum discussions, publications, websites, videos, and articles about PV technique should not continue to ignore the fact that some of Petrov's ideas came from the 1970s coaching of Tom Tellez et al.

The reason you didn't hear that much about Tellez IN THE PAST is that he wasn't a writer - he was a coach. There weren't any writers able to articulate his work to the extent that you have articulated Petrov's work. But we shouldn't hold that against him. You also didn't have access to the vids of Isaksson, Roberts, and Tulley - but now you do, and so does Agapit and Clymer. Yet Agapit's M640 website and Clymer's vids STILL ignore the historical significance of the vaulters and coaches of the 1970s.

Alan, you asked me why I didn't vault higher, and PVDaddy alluded to the same question last week. I take both of your questions as knee-jerk reactions to me challenging you about certain things. You were offended, and that's how you're lashing out. So I'm not going to escalate this by even answering your question (as I'm not taking your question seriously), but I can tell you this much:

I trained harder than anyone I know, and I jumped as high as I possibly could, given the athleticism that I was born with, my intensive training, my coaching, and my competitive opportunities to excel. Quite frankly, with my lack of natural talent, I surprised myself with how high I was able to jump, and I attribute that to my rigorous, disciplined training regime and my superior technique - that I learned from Coach Ken Shannon and that he learned from Coach Tom Tellez.

I'm not any different than any other vaulter - don't we ALL strive to jump as high as we can? :dazed:

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Re: Fourteen Year Gap in Modern PV Technique in the 1970s?

Unread postby KirkB » Mon Mar 25, 2013 3:04 pm

altius wrote:Just a thought – also worth looking at how high great athletes like Seagren and Pennel jumped even at their peak.

I take this as a serious question - deserving a reply ...

Pennel pushed with his bottom hand. In fact, my high school technique followed his technique (since he was the WR at the time), but that was NOT good technique to follow. I didn't know it at the time, and Pennel obviously did what he thought was the best technique at the time. So not much to be learned from Pennel, except how NOT to vault.

Seagren was a great, natural athlete that would have been successful in any sport that he competed in. I didn't socialize with him at track meets, but from my observations, he was fast down the runway, was a bit under, had a "good" swing and was "smooth" on top. Some of his jumps are on Caldwell's vid, so you can judge for yourself.

Seagren was a great competitor, and always came up BIG at the BIG meets - the 1972 Olympic Trials and the 1972 Olympics standing out in my mind. He had been setting WRs left and right in the late 1960s and he won the 1968 Olympics, so he was definitely a PV pioneer. But I haven't included him in the pioneers of the Petrov-like PV technique because that's not the way I observed his vaults. He did NOT, however, push the bottom arm like Pennel, so I suppose that was something that he was a pioneer of. So on that basis alone, perhaps he SHOULD be noted as a contributor to the art and science of pole vaulting!

altius wrote:... someone pulled me up for not giving Vern Wolfe credit in the evolution of the pole vault.

Wolfe was Seagren's coach at USC (Southern Cal), but I wasn't aware of anything he specifically did to improve Seagren's technique, so I can't comment on his contributions to PV TECHNIQUE. However, he was quite the innovator when it came to weight training. I have no idea how much of this weight training rubbed off on Seagren, but from my slight awareness of Wolfe's weight training methods, I don't think any of them were specifically pole-vault related - else Shannon would have mentioned this to me.

altius wrote:I like Isaakson’s technique, especially in the inversion, but why did he not jump higher? What was missing???

Another serious question, deserving of a serious reply ...

Isaksson's PR was 5.55 in 1972 (prior to the Munich Olympics) - not bad for being only 5-8 or so. You may argue that Greg Duplantis was that short too, but he cleared 19-0. I heard that Isaksson jumped 18-8 (or something like that) in practice, so if that's true, they really weren't that far apart. But Isaksson was at least 15 years ahead of Duplantis, and the poles became a LOT more efficient, lighter, and more reliable in this 15 year span (more so than in any other 15 year span in the history of fiberglass poles), so that probably accounts for the difference. I will also say that Duplantis simply had better technique than Isaksson (my opinion only) because Duplantis had the advantage of copying Bubka's technique, whereas Isaksson had to pioneer his own technique. I hope this adequately answers you questions about Isaksson. Other people may have other answers - this is just IMHO.

p.s. I'm sure you're just trying to rile me, but my name IS NOT McBryde. :confused:

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Re: Fourteen Year Gap in Modern PV Technique in the 1970s?

Unread postby altius » Mon Mar 25, 2013 7:48 pm

"Alan, you asked me why I didn't vault higher, and PVDaddy alluded to the same question last week. I take both of your questions as knee-jerk reactions to me challenging you about certain things. You were offended, and that's how you're lashing out."

I was not lashing out - I do not need to because I know where I am and I understand the contribution I have made to this event -- around the world. Note that my actual question was not simply why you didn't jump higher but "Then again I must ask, if you were employing these ideas in your technique – and I am not saying you did not – why did you not jump higher?

I was asking a serious question because in my view anyone who begins to master even some elements of the Petrov/Bubka model - but especially the free take off - has a chance of improving their performance. Did that happen to you - did your performance actually reflect the fact that you were using a superior technical model to those around you. I know - how 'athletic' my athletes were or were not, the volume of their training and their opportunities to compete and clearly I know their performances. Which is why I felt comfortable trying to sell the message that 'ordinary' (certainly compared to folk like Pennel and Seagren) athletes in a less than ideal training environment (which is the norm for most coaches around the world) can benefit from trying to use the the Petrov model.

Extending this notion further - why did the athletes in the period you mention, who were using the ideas you claim, not jump higher? I am assuming that they were physically capable -certainly much more so than my kids, had time to train in good facilities, were older and more experienced, and had plenty of opportunities to compete at an appropriate level. Apart from yourself tell me who they were and what were their performances. What was Isaakson's pr for example? So why did they not jump higher? It is pretty obvious that the biomechanical advantages of the Petrov model are such that athletes will jump higher if they employ it.

It is interesting that you should now throw Tom Tellez into the mix. I know he is a truly great coach across a range of events and although I have never read anything he has written or even met him - tried a couple of years ago when I was in Houston but it didn't work out. And I do understand that when you are a coach you coach!! I did it - as a volunteer - for over fifty years; only started to write seriously when I retired. But that is the point I am trying to make. How do you know what someone is thinking or doing if they never present their ideas and methods? In 1985 both Petrov and Houvion did that in Birmingham - thank goodness and of course Steve Chappell at UCS Spirit!

Finally I should point out that someone with a pr of 8'11 3/4" can hardly chip any one else about how high they may or may not have jumped! However I do take some solace from the words of the great Italian soccer coach Saachi, who said, "You don't have to have been a horse to become a jockey".

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Re: Fourteen Year Gap in Modern PV Technique in the 1970s?

Unread postby altius » Mon Mar 25, 2013 9:36 pm

Almost forgot - I would just like you to clarify who the US WHO JOINTLY DISCOVERED were in this statement, "but it took quite a bit of wrangling for us to jointly discover the old footage that proved this a few years ago". Are you one of the US? am I one of the US? Given we are being challenged on the veracity of statements we make here we might as well clear that up.

As I indicated the clip of Slusarski (that I am aware of) came from a black and white film Steve Rippon gave me several years ago. This is why I am querying the US - and I don't remember anything about wrangling with you or anyone else - something else I didn't or don't know about. Incidentally it is now available in dvd form from Neovault, although I am not sure too many folk have got a copy, even though it answers many questions! :yes: :heart:
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Re: Fourteen Year Gap in Modern PV Technique in the 1970s?

Unread postby KirkB » Mon Mar 25, 2013 10:11 pm

... it took quite a bit of wrangling for us to jointly discover the old footage that proved this a few years ago.

You may not have liked (or understood) my wording, but what I was trying to say (briefly, without making a big deal about it) was that the original question re "vaulters that jumped like Bubka before Bubka" was YOUR question. That was 5-6 years ago, I think. So I responded, DJ responded, and there were a few more of "us" old fogies that responded. It's still on PVP if you want to research it.

The general gist of it was that you asked your question, you asked for video proof, the video proof was hard to find (I unfortunately never had any of my vaults on vid - or I would have given them to you), and after several weeks or months of banter, you finally saw the Slusarski vid, and you finally agreed that he had a free takeoff in 1976 - "before Bubka".

I'm not personally claiming to have given you the link to his vid - I was just saying that we were bantering back and forth with DJ re this issue (we're the "us"), and you were from Missouri. So we pointed out to you that there were indeed vaulters that "jumped like Bubka before Bubka", but I don't remember who found what vid. I just remember the end result.

You do remember that lengthy discussion, don't you? In fact, you may have been the one that provoked me to write my Bryde Bend thread. You said "put up or shut up", so I "put up". And I think you agreed that my technique was close enough to Bubka's to call it a Petrov Model style of vaulting - did you not? i.e. based on the same physics principles, etc.

My main PURPOSE in posting on PVP was to fill the historical void of the 1970s, and if I could articulate solid technical analysis from an elite vaulter's perspective, then that too. I'm STILL in pursuit of this purpose, as my mission is apparently still incomplete.

I think it's safe to say that we've held a mutual respect for each other ever since. :yes:

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Re: Fourteen Year Gap in Modern PV Technique in the 1970s?

Unread postby KirkB » Mon Mar 25, 2013 11:28 pm

altius wrote:I should point out that someone with a pr of 8'11 3/4" can hardly chirp any one else about how high they may or may not have jumped!

I was wondering who this 8'11 3/4" jumper is? Oh! That's you? Funny - I never caught that at first! :)

altius wrote: ... if you were employing these ideas in your technique – and I am not saying you did not – why did you not jump higher?... anyone who begins to master even some elements of the Petrov/Bubka model - but especially the free take off - has a chance of improving their performance. Did that happen to you - did your performance actually reflect the fact that you were using a superior technical model to those around you.

Absolutely! But as explained on the Bryde Bend thread, my emphasis was NOT on the free takeoff. I had good JUMPING ability, and I emphasized my JUMP off the takeoff. THAT'S what I thought about. And as you well know, you can't jump UP and TOWARDS the pit very well (if at all) if you're UNDER. But I wasn't the only vaulter back then that did this, so I didn't consider myself very unique in that regard. Isaksson and Roberts both jumped off the takeoff quite well too.

My distinguishing technique (claim to fame) was that when I jumped, I forced my takeoff foot BACKWARDS before I swung it DOWN and FORWARDS. I recognize that that's not part of the Petrov Model (I think it SHOULD BE) but it worked for me, and it will work for anyone that's a good JUMPER. Today, I don't recommend this to any "white men that can't jump" - I just recommend it to JUMPERS.

But to answer your question, my JUMP on takeoff (a free takeoff) and my hyper-BACKWARDS/FORWARDS downswing absolutely set me up for a very efficient upswing and extension. To the point that I "shot past vertical". :)

I knew all along that if any of the fast sprinters (like Jan Johnson) copied my technique (assuming they could JUMP instead of just getting picked off the ground), they would set the WR. And Isaksson and Roberts actually did this - several times each, I think. I just didn't have those wheels.

altius wrote: ... why did the athletes in the period you mention, who were using the ideas you claim, not jump higher? ... tell me who they were and what were their performances. What was Isaakson's pr for example? So why did they not jump higher? It is pretty obvious that the biomechanical advantages of the Petrov model are such that athletes will jump higher if they employ it.

Agreed. I think I already answered this question re Isaksson in a previous post. I didn't know Tulley - but DJ would be a good guy to answer the question from his viewpoint. Re Dave Roberts, he was a buddy of mine. We vaulted against each other quite often in 1971-72, but 1972 was my last year of vaulting, and he continued on to the 1976 Olympics, setting WRs in-between.

I don't know about his 72-76 technique other than watching vids, but in 71-72 (PR 5.50) he was tall down the runway, had a very high plant and a free takeoff, JUMPED on takeoff, and swung quite well - Petrov Model style - on a fairly stiff pole (stiffer than mine). His 5.70 PR was a WR in 1976. I don't think the question is why didn't he jump higher, after all, he did set some WRs. He was using the same heavy poles as Isaksson and myself, so the same comments apply to him. If you want me to guess, I would guess that he would gain a foot overnight if he vaulted with today's poles - but that's just my guess.

altius wrote:It is interesting that you should now throw Tom Tellez into the mix.

I just checked, and first mention of Tellez on PVP was in 2003. DJ first mentions Tellez on PVP in 2005, in a discussion with Agapit.
In 2006, Barto and Lonestar discuss Tellez.

Also in 2006, you first mention him ...
altius wrote:Thankjs Barto - I picked it up somewhere along the line but never knew its provenance - not surprised if it was Tom Tellez - a great coach.

I first mentioned him in 2008, in a discussion with DJ.

So it's not as if he hasn't been mentioned over the years on PVP. I'm very surprised that you sound surprised! :confused:

Cheers!

Kirk Bryde
Run. Plant. Jump. Stretch. Whip. Extend. Fly. Clear. There is no tuck! THERE IS NO DELAY!

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Re: Fourteen Year Gap in Modern PV Technique in the 1970s?

Unread postby altius » Tue Mar 26, 2013 12:30 am

When 'oldtimers' gets you, you won't even remember that you knew anything about anything. Thanks for reminding me -but I will have probably forgotten by tomorrow. Anyway I have decided to leave the discussion in your capable hands for a while. If anyone needs me they can pm me. I am off to clean the car and write the book on the teaching of soccer that I have playing with for ten years. Might make some money out of that!
Its what you learn after you know it all that counts. John Wooden

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Re: Fourteen Year Gap in Modern PV Technique in the 1970s?

Unread postby dj » Tue Mar 26, 2013 11:34 am

hey

i can say, from "being there" and experience that what has become the "Bubka"/Pertrov technique was being used or at least attempted to be used as far back as 1974.

Guy Kochel/Arkansas State, Tom Telez/UCLA, Shannon up in Washington? all were working from a, high plant, "jump" takeoff that felt "3" inches OUT before the pole tip hit the back of the box.

Pole design was huge in the progress and in Bubka putting all the pieces, including a symmetrically bending pole, together that has become the Petrov/Bubka model..

The pole that Dave Roberts "borrowed" from Earl and jumped 18'8 3/4 on in 1976 was the first pole built exactly with the same pattern, hoop strength and linier strength… Bubka's poles followed that pattern and based on his speed, technique, grip and pole design he put the "physics" together correctly most of the time and at a higher level than others.

Kochel has a book.. published maybe '81? All that writing was done from'74… his descriptions a "Petrov" Model if you are willing to read it with that in mind. I know because I was there..

I also know what Earl said he was trying to accomplish, Dave Roberts and Mike Tully as well.

We don't need to argue these points… Petrov has said he studied the vaults before Bubka and took the best "physics" from each. The correct pole let Bubka use that physics correctly.

dj

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Re: Fourteen Year Gap in Modern PV Technique in the 1970s?

Unread postby vaultmd » Tue Mar 26, 2013 2:49 pm

DJ's right.

That stuff was being taught when I started vaulting in 1970. This was reinforced to me when I was researching newspaper articles from the early 70's while preparing to introduce Steve Smith when he was inducted in the Pole Vault Hall of Fame last year.


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