Insightful

[KirkB]

... Isn't the center of mass slightley forward of the natural position when one carries a pole ?

Good catch - you're right. Clymer coaches more than just PVers, so maybe he was just referring to sprint technique in general?

His discussion and graphics about the runup is classic Tellez technique (who was also a multi-events coach), so maybe he just took what Tellez had said, forgetting the difference with a pole you your hand?

I know that Petrov taught this runup technique as well - clearly modeled after Tellez.

Or if Clymer learned his sprinting technique from Dan Pfaff, then that's still Tellez technique, since Pfaff learned from Tellez.

Kirk Bryde

[PVDaddy]

Kirk, You are being extremely inaccurate and untruthful by suggesting that I led the readers down rathole. I don't even want to hear your rationale for such a statement as I don't want to get into your motives behind Saying it. I believe that I have shared a great deal of valuable information that was explained both concisely and accurately In my negative inversion thread. It does not matter that I obtained much of this information from my studies and other sources but what is important is the fact that I shared it for the benefit of others. I purposely did not quote the The source of my information up front for two reasons. Reason number one, I honestly did not know who to give the original credit to ask I could not find the original article that I read. The second reason was that I purposely put the information out there from a pole vaulting nobody such as myself just to see If it would be respected. It's very humorous how suddenly now it is !
It has become very apparent to me that some of the Supposed experts on this board Are more concerned with their own prestige then they are with seriously debating and learning together as colleagues searching for the truth. More concerned with maintaining prestige Even if it requires belittling others, Rather than gaining knowledge and wisdom. I am here for one thing and one thing only and that is to fully understand this great Event And share what I can with others, by completely understanding the correct mechanics required in order to achieve it to its maximum efficiency. This is not intended in any way to be disrespectful but the difference between you and many of the experts on this board and myself is that I am willing to learn from anyone And will and have even from a homeless toothless can collectors on the street if it advances my knowledge even only the slightest in the process. I must tell you that you are indeed missing out in many of the joys in life if you are only interested in those with high credentials. The subject has been raised on numerous occasions and therefore I suppose I will expound upon my own. You have no clue as to the people I come from. My grandfather, his two sons ,Including my father, myself and my son were all Allstate in their sports And all managed to set school records. Although we were not Olympic athletes such as yourself and I do greatly admire you for that accomplishment.
I do have a relative that holds the world record in the polevault, the 80 m hurdles, the 200 m hurdles, the Pentatholon, and the Decathalon. Accomplish the world record in the polevault with only two years of training. He more than doubled the previous record in the Decathalon. He is 92 years old. He is a decorated World War II veteran,became a lawyer and then a judge and after he retired He got into athletics only because he was embarrassed that he was overweight and out of shape And never looked back. I also have a relative who is the starting quarterback at a Division I university here in our state.

My greatest accomplishment other than raising my children (I have a son who Also pole vaults in college and is studying to be a heart doctor and is the top of his class with nearly 4.0 GPA) Has been as a coach. I have had the The privilege of coaching my son 6 others High school athletes to state chlampionships in the sport of wrestling. Three of these athletes (one boy and two girls went on to become national champions at the high school level. Two of these athletes are currently enjoying full ride college scholarships at prominent universities.

When it comes to the sport of pole vaulting,like I have said, I am a pole vaulting nobody.
That does not mean however that I am incapable of learning and sharing the finer aspects of this great event. The best thing about Having no "credentials" Is that I have nothing to lose By sticking my head out on some of these hotly debated topics. I'm just going to come out and say it, many "experts" Have been led down the rathole of Russian propaganda with the pull at plant method. All this does is tie up the shoulder joints which must be loose and flexible. The swing must be allowed to Occur naturally and yes Coachjvinsen " as a monkey swings on the branches"from the top hand throughout the downswing. Penetration is in fact Inperative in order to allow this to occur as it loads both the pole and the vaulter. The vaulter is flexible just like the pole is. The term pole loading must be discarded and thought of differently. A better term would be pole vaulter system loading. This is best visualized as two poles bending and moving in the same direction. Like Petrov has described the vaulter as a pendulum on the top of the pole swinging Upward. Of course the swing helps the poleto rotate toward vertical. The swing must be as long and as powerful as we can possibly make it. Physics tells us that longer levers deliver more power. The most largest in powerful muscle in the human body is the hip. Therefore the whip must come from the hip. The swing is the foundation of the off ground phase of the vault and nothing should be allowed to hinder it's progress. Pulling to early does just that. Not only does it destroy the rubber band effect of the body but it also destroys rubber band effect of the pole and tells it to uncoil and the body to break at the hips too early Before the hips are allowed to contribute their most valuable energy to the whip. The Pull must occur when it is most needed and that would be at the moment the vaulter breaks at the hips during the upswing And no time else. Clunker is incorrect as this does indeed add energy to the vault just as the bottom hand push toward the pit combined with the laying back of the shoulder and also the second push in the vault the top hand push does.

[PVDaddy]

I know there are are A LOT of typos and sentence structure problems in my last post, please forgive me, as I am on the road and have to make them from my cell phone. It is very difficult to navigate through my post or even read it. I did not mean to call Mr. Clymer "Clunker" my phone did that for me. His Video is awsome!

[CoachEric]

The second reason was that I purposely put the information out there from a pole vaulting nobody such as myself just to see If it would be respected. It's very humorous how suddenly now it is !

Not sure how you figure, but enjoy your self-congratulations.

Looks to me that the video describes "negative inversion" as top arm angle behind the head as the vaulter inverts. It's nothing more than the top arm moving behind the head elastically and not rowing forward. I seem to recall you describing negative inversion as the angle of the spine getting behind vertical.

Being elastic with the arms is nothing new. And Bubka's ability to get past 0 degrees a few times did not add anything to his height. The vaulter can't get more vertical than 0 degrees.

This isn't part of Petrov's model either. Petrov's model is about correct pole carry, active pole drop, and a very precise plant motion, resulting in free takeoff, allowing for a powerful, unbroken swing. Pole carry is the MOST important factor and critical to posture and plant motion, and it wasn't even mentioned in the video or in this thread.

Also I'm confused by your understanding here:

...as will No rowing in the vault whatsoever, PULLING at the exact moment you break at the hips

You understand correctly that the vaulter should not row, yet you advocate pulling during the swing? Pulling with the bottom arm does the exactly same thing that rowing does. It forces the pole to unbend and breaks the swing. Instead, the vaulter should press while swinging, keeping hollow shoulders. This snaps the hips to vertical and maintains pressure on the pole. As the hips line up with the chord fo the pole, the bottom arm collapses inside. At this point the vaulter has almost no time to develop force with the arms for "bottom arm push, top arm push." It might give him an extra 2cm, but the important thing here is just about staying lined up with the pole.

[PVDaddy]

CoachEric said:

Looks to me that the video describes "negative inversion" as top arm angle behind the head as the vaulter inverts. It's nothing more than the top arm moving behind the head elastically and not rowing forward. I seem to recall you describing negative inversion as the angle of the spine getting behind vertical.

I highly suggest you go back and study the video coach it seems you misunderstood a lot. Your description of "top arm angle behind the head as the vaulter inverts" is a very poor and inaccurate. The top arm must stay with the chord of the pole. The chord of the pole is and the top arm are behind vertical while the vaulter is in this inverted position! You also said; "It's nothing more than the top arm moving behind the head elastically and not rowing forward." The top arm does not move behind the head! How did you get that out of the video? Do you know what staying with the the chord of the pole means? The top arm has already been with the chord of the pole far before this time and moves nowhere? Why are you emphasizing the top arm moving behind the head elastically at this point in the vault? Finally the angle of the spine DOES get behind vertical as I described. You are way off in both your description and your understanding of this concept!

[PVDaddy]

Coacheric: Now for you other statement regarding pulling.
You said:

Also I'm confused by your understanding here:

You quoted me:
..

.as will No rowing in the vault whatsoever, PULLING at the exact moment you break at the hips

Did you actually quote me here or try to paraphrase and link two statements?

You then said:

You understand correctly that the vaulter should not row, yet you advocate pulling during the swing? Pulling with the bottom arm does the exactly same thing that rowing does. It forces the pole to unbend and breaks the swing. Instead, the vaulter should press while swinging, keeping hollow shoulders. This snaps the hips to vertical and maintains pressure on the pole. As the hips line up with the chord fo the pole, the bottom arm collapses inside. At this point the vaulter has almost no time to develop force with the arms for "bottom arm push, top arm push." It might give him an extra 2cm, but the important thing here is just about staying lined up with the pole.

Sounds like you advocate no pull in the swing ever and that's fine, but, I disagree. When your feet pass the chord of the pole at the moment your hips break you are now riding the arc in the L-position and leaning back toward the top arm. It is impossible for pulling down at this point to straighten out the pole! The bottom arm is ONLY performing a pulling tension through the shoulders. Most of that pull should be from the top arm. This top hand pull (At the fulcrum!) causes the pole to actually bend more, not straighten, but importantly causes the hips and the legs to be greatly accelerated to the top of the pole.

As far as the bottom hand push and top hand push and there being no time to do it and that it adds nothing to the vault except 2 cm.You may want to console with Bubka and Tarasov about that because they both do it strongly! I dont know how much bar clearance it adds, don't know how to measure it, but I believe more than 2 cm. Last I checked world records, or winning events or even PR's was a game of cm anyway! Good luck to you and your vaulters!

[CoachEric]

The top arm does not move behind the head! How did you get that out of the video? Do you know what staying with the the chord of the pole means? The top arm has already been with the chord of the pole far before this time and moves nowhere?

I was describing the movement into the "C" position, as you chose to describe it, from the takeoff. I call it the elastic position because I believe it's a more effective cue for learning vaulters.

Finally the angle of the spine DOES get behind vertical as I described.

Yeah, so what?


On your idea of pulling -
I'm not exactly sure what "riding the arc" means but I am interpreting your explanation to mean that once the vaulter has begun to pike (L position) the "loading" portion of the swing is effectively dead and the vaulter continues to inversion (or accelerates into it) by pulling into it. This isn't necessary, and I think you're overcomplicating the aerial actions of the vault. The swing to vertical is one motion. And it happens with the shoulders in a hollow position - a pressing position. Talk to a gymnast and they'll tell you the same thing.

As for pushing off the pole -
If you look at Bubka's later videos it's usually no more than a flick of the wrist, because the pole has violently launched him toward vertical. There's just no time to develop force from a push. It would be similar to trying to push a barbell while performing a snatch as it moves overhead. It's comparable especially considering the similarities of the drop of the shoulders during extension toward vertical to the hip extension movement in Olympic lifts. Bubka and other top vaulters have effectively conserved energy at this point from a ~10m/s run. Actions like a fast, full body swing and a "clean" motion during extension are powerful enough to add energy to that system. A unilateral push while accelerating skyward just isn't going to add much.

[KirkB]

Actions like a fast, full body swing and a "clean" motion during extension are powerful enough to add energy to that system. A unilateral push while accelerating skyward just isn't going to add much.

You made 4 great points here:

1. Adding energy to the pole/vaulter system.
2. Simulation of a "clean" motion during extension.
3. A push isn't going to add much.
4. [implied] So that final push isn't worth focusing on.

The 4 quotes from my Bryde Bend thread should be self-explanatory, if you match them up to the 4 points that you made ...

1. Adding energy to the pole/vaulter system ...

I was adding more potential energy into the pole, slowing the expulsion of energy from the pole. A split second after that, I began my shoot – slightly backwards, towards the runway. Since the horizontal speed of the pole towards the pit was still good, my net direction was almost straight up (standards almost always at 24”).

2. Simulation of a "clean" motion during extension ...

2. The Hip-Circle-Shoot-to-a-Handstand is a very good TECHNIQUE drill for simulating the feeling you get on the pole when you’re inverted, as the pole recoils. You pull up on the pole just like you pull up on the Hip-Circle-Shoot-to-a-Handstand drill (and also just like the clean part of a clean-and-jerk) - especially in the extension of the shoulders and back to the “I” position.

3. A push isn't going to add much ...

I did not have any push-off the pole to speak of. That’s because I was already pulling/shooting up so fast that the pole became out of reach by the time I might have pushed off.

4. [implied] So that final push isn't worth focusing on ...

Whenever I flew off the top of the pole too slowly, I never tried to improve that by any drills or mental focus. Instead, I focused on why my Jump-to-a-Split (or run or plant) might have been a little off, which was usually the root cause of a slow fly-away. Focusing on the bottom part of my vault was far more productive than worrying about minor details at the top end.

Kirk Bryde

[PVDaddy]

How many times and in how many ways have I stated that the whip adds the lions share of energy in the off ground phase of the vault? How many times have I stated that the whip is the foundation of the off ground phase of the vault? When have I ever suggested that the bottom hand or top hand push should be the MAIN focus of that phase? Never! I did say this however:

He is able to do it because his coaches concept of pole vaulting and his, are different then most. THEY EXPLOIT EVERY SINGLE OPPORTUNITY TO ADD ENERGY INTO THE SYSTEM AND THEY THINK OF THE ENTIRE VAULT AS ONE INTEGRATED SYSTEM! If we ever get away from this motive, the current world record is as good as gold. If we stay focused on it, I think it can be achieved, relatively soon. That's why I get so scared about even mentioning the push (or any active element) as a negative. No it is not the most important,but should never be discarded for that reason? Thats insanity! The Hungarians have a saying a "lot of little things add up to one big thing when put together"! Those words apply to pole vaulting more than anything I can think of!

And this:

the whip is the core foundation of the second phase of the vault and adds the most energy. The pelvic thrust, bend at the hips while pulling with both arms (top arm mostly), rock back, laying back of the shoulders into full inversion while pushing with the bottom arm, and the top arm push ALL ADD ADDITIONAL CRITICAL ENERGY INTO ONE INTEGRATED SYSTEM! Petrov and Bubka understand this better then most, and fully exploit it.

Sigh!

[PVDaddy]

Again I will say in English: The whip adds the Lions share of energy to the Off-Ground phase of the vault!

My next statement I will say In Hungarian: Sok kicsi socra megy!

I have already interpreted the meaning of that statement throughout Agenda 21 and my Negative inversion thread. I'm afraid that even if I did it would do no good for some. Perhaps seeing is believing? Look at frames 1:56-2:06 and 5:11 of Bubkas greatest vault.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QribYk ... sults_main

If that doesent convince you look at Tarasovs greatest cleareance. Frames 20-24

[PVDaddy]

Oh that's right you got to see it! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XsUCiLANe-8

[altius]

Again I will say in English: The whip adds the Lions share of energy to the Off-Ground phase of the vault!

My next statement I will say In Hungarian: Sok kicsi socra megy!

I have already interpreted the meaning of that statement throughout Agenda 21 and my Negative inversion thread. I'm afraid that even if I did it would do no good for some. Perhaps seeing is believing? Look at frames 1:56-2:06 and 5:11 of Bubkas greatest vault.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QribYk ... sults_main

If that doesent convince you look at Tarasovs greatest cleareance. Frames 20-24

I hope folk notice that this clip was from my first DVD - before I learned to do voice overs. Not sure how someone can post it under their name without mentioning the author - but I suppose that is Utube for you.. And please whatever you do don't spent your time deconstructing it - there is fourth? edition out now and the fifth should be available later this summer. And the idea of this DVD was to simplify and clarify the Petrov Model and show how it could be introduced to young vaulters - for those who had never heard of it.