Creating Space with the Bottom Arm

This is a forum to discuss advanced pole vaulting techniques. If you are in high school you should probably not be posting or replying to topics here, but do read and learn.
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PVDaddy
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Re: Creating Space with the Bottom Arm

Unread postby PVDaddy » Mon Apr 22, 2013 4:03 pm

Kirk:
My suggestion is to focus on where the top hand is and what it's doing during the plant, as well as where the pole tip is. I believe that focussing on where the bottom hand is and what it's doing is a coaching mistake

My suggestion is to focus on where the top hand is and what it's doing during the plant, as well as where the pole tip is. I believe that focussing on where the bottom hand is and what it's doing is a coaching mistake.

While I agree with the hollow/elastic theory, telling a kid to be cognisant of his bottom hand will only detract from the top hand and pole tip focus.


Kirk, You may not realize it, but, our beliefs in many areas of the vault are similar (I think it is fair to say we are both sold out Petrovites), especially in two key areas. I have read enough of your post to know that you are a big fan of the importance of the whipping action of the trail leg (You were in fact the one who solidified that very important point for me here early on) from C all the way to the top of the pole (Never tuck and shoot. Even though many vaulters are able to jump quite high with this, I believe it is in the end, a dead end approach) and ELASTICITY. You have just recently made it clear that you are also, as I am, not a fan of promoting rowing at any time during the vault. I believe that not having your bottom hand over your head (Or at least forehead level) has a major effect on ALL three of these areas (I am not saying you don't). In fact it is one of the most common problems I am seeing with my young vaulters. I have just recently started coaching and I must say what I have learned here on PVP has helped me tremendously. After only two practices I am already seeing good improvement with their form. My best vaulter had a narrow grip of 21 inches (Thumb to thumb) and I changed that to 24.5. He said that the pole is so much more comfortable to carry now. He however does not get his bottom hand over his head. He said he feels like he is stalling out in his swing even though it is much better than it was? I told him to drop his hand grip (Still 24.5 spacing)) a half an inch and that seemed to help his forward progress. He keeps his bottom arm bent with his elbow pointing out and his top hand high. He does not load the bottom arm at all, in fact it flexes in and I think that is good. Still his bottom hand is not getting over his head and sometime hits him in the face. I am contemplating the best way to resolve that issue. I am reluctant to tell him to straighten out his bottom hand out any at plant although I can see were this may help to get it higher? My thought is to continue emphasizing planting tall with both arms but to continue to press upward with both hands through penetration, while at the same time keep the shoulder girdles flexible. My other thought is whether I should bring his bottom hand grip up some? Will that help get the bottom hand higher? The first approach seems to make the most sense to me. I have not yet emphasized the extension of the bottom hand upward from c to L yet as my thinking is that he needs to get it up over his head first at penetration? I am aware of how much the extension up of the bottom hand, while hollowing his shoulders (The TAP) will speed up his rate of rotation around the top hand. I just think we need to get that bottom hand high enough first so he doesn't develop any bad habits. I am convinced that getting that bottom hand high enough is HUGE and will have a major effect on elasticity, therefore whip, therefore inversion, therefore no need to row.
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Re: Creating Space with the Bottom Arm

Unread postby KirkB » Mon Apr 22, 2013 11:51 pm

Nice to hear that you're coaching some kids and having some success! :yes:

Despite your well-written description of the issues your protege is having, it's really hard to understand EXACTLY what his issue is without seeing some vid.

If you can post any, I'll take a look at it, and I'm perhaps CoachEric and others might as well (but I don't mean to speak for anyone but myself).

Just let us know if there's any vid that we should take a look at.

Re grip width, I personally didn't measure thumb to thumb. I measure from thumb of bottom hand to bottom of top hand. There's probably about 4" difference measuring this way, due to the width of one hand.

I don't remember why I measured that way, and I'm not sure if it's the "proper" way. Doing it the "proper" way would mean that we don't have to explain the end points of the grip width each time we state it - that's all.

When you post his vid, just a reminder to also post his metrics - described in a sticky post on the Vid Review Forum by RG. That will help us to assess whether his grip is "about right" or not, for his height, speed, pole, etc.

One other thing, and please don't take this the wrong way ...

Depending on your protege's PR, you may want to continue the discussion of his technique in the Beginner's or Intermediate Technique Forums.

Kirk Bryde
Run. Plant. Jump. Stretch. Whip. Extend. Fly. Clear. There is no tuck! THERE IS NO DELAY!

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Re: Creating Space with the Bottom Arm

Unread postby PVDaddy » Sat Apr 27, 2013 8:08 pm

Since my last post and after more study I have concluded that the vaulter SHOULD have their bottom hand STRAIGHT at plant/take off step. I have just recently been emphasizing this and for the first time they are both getting it above their head! We have also been working on perfecting the 3 step planting motions and I believe this also has helped in their ability to do this. We had a meet yesterday and for some reason my vaulters planting motion completely clicked in his mind with only 4 short practice sessions? I reinforced mental cues at each step for him at the meet and I was shocked, he just did it! He PR'd at 13'. I now have two vaulters jumping 13. Neither one of them have learned to Whip well at all yet. I'm thinking that now that they are getting their bottom hand over their head we can really ephasize chest penetration through the arms (complete elasticity of the shoulder girdles) to get the bottom arm all the way ABOVE the head allowing it to flex in as the vaulter/pole system loads at the top hand? If we can achieve this I want to work on extending that bottom arm up from C through L? How do I get them to whip all the way up to the top arm elbow? How much do high bar whipping drills help? I would think a lot?
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Re: Creating Space with the Bottom Arm

Unread postby KirkB » Sun Apr 28, 2013 1:19 am

Good to hear that your kids are coming along well! :yes:

Just don't lose them in all the jargon.

Yes, highbar drills will help a LOT!

Kirk
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Re: Creating Space with the Bottom Arm

Unread postby grandevaulter » Sun Apr 28, 2013 4:56 pm

Which school are you from P.V.D.? Athleticnet doesn't show one vault within the last five days that has two over 13'.

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Re: Creating Space with the Bottom Arm

Unread postby PVDaddy » Sun Apr 28, 2013 5:59 pm

Grandevaulter, I will talk to the parents and both kids first and if it is all right with them I will post their vaults on the intermediate site of them vaulting 13' for review.
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Re: Creating Space with the Bottom Arm

Unread postby vaultmd » Mon Apr 29, 2013 4:20 am

He just wants to know what school you are at. No parental permission needed to answer that one.

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Re: Creating Space with the Bottom Arm

Unread postby PVDaddy » Fri May 10, 2013 7:54 pm

Ok talked to the Parents, I am the main Technique coach at Freeland High School (My alma Matter) and also help out some at Midland High (were my son vaulted). FOUR vaulters have PR'd again since my last post. Two at 13-6, one at 12-6 and one at 12. We now have 3-12 footer plus at Freeland. Mitch is my Nephew Yoday he cleared 13-6 with 14ft now in site.
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Re: Creating Space with the Bottom Arm

Unread postby PVDaddy » Fri May 10, 2013 8:24 pm

Want to make it clear that I do not think its a huge deal. It is nice to see progress though.
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Re: Creating Space with the Bottom Arm

Unread postby altius » Fri May 10, 2013 10:06 pm

PVDaddy wrote:Ok talked to the Parents, I am the main Technique coach at Freeland High School (My alma Matter) and also help out some at Midland High (were my son vaulted). FOUR vaulters have PR'd again since my last post. Two at 13-6, one at 12-6 and one at 12. We now have 3-12 footer plus at Freeland. Mitch is my Nephew Yoday he cleared 13-6 with 14ft now in site.


Are we talking about girls here???

Sorry, obviously one - Mitch - is a boy; what about the others? I make this point because I had a junior decathlete clear 13' after three vault sessions - he went over the bar as if he was sitting in a chair and landed on his face on the pad. He could run 100 m in 11.1 and could grip high on a 15' pole! The point is that an athletic boy doesn't have to do much more than run fast, grip high and pray, to jump 13' - in fact even a decent athlete doesn't have to look much like BUbka to jump 18'. Note the decathlon situation was a case of needs must, not normal practice here - anyone who has coached beginning decathletes will understand this situation so don't start telling me how terrible it was to allow this to happen!

So after all the hype, put up film of your athletes and let us know how you are helping them to progress. That would be good experience for you and might even allow some of us who have actually coached this event to help you gain a clearer understanding of how to coach it. Probably would be best done in the beginners section though
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Re: Creating Space with the Bottom Arm

Unread postby PVDaddy » Fri May 10, 2013 10:39 pm

Altius, it was not my intent to talk that much about them here. I was just trying to share what some of my real world experience was showing me in relation to the bottom hand. I was asked to give ore detail so I did. I realize 13-6 is small potatoes. It is not at all the bar clearance that concerns me but the proper development of their technique. Even if I was guaranteed that tuck and shoot would get them 15 ft tomorrow I would never teach it (Not saying you promote that either). I'm only concerned with developing their technique properly and the big picture. Honestly I would rather have a kid vaulting 13-6 and trying to emulate the Petrov/Bubka model than a 15 ft tuck and shoot any day. Like you, I rate their vaulting abilities by their technique and not bar clearance. This is my first time coaching and I have only been at it a little over a month. I am more driven then all of my athletes I'm training because I know what it takes to get decent. I think that a few are starting to see that.They are only just starting to come around and show glimpses of beeing pole vaulters. This is the end of this topic on this forum I hope I don't have to prove who i'm coaching any longer. I need to start a thread on our progress in the beginners forum. I really wish you would help me out with advice their.
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Re: Creating Space with the Bottom Arm

Unread postby baggettpv » Sat May 11, 2013 1:44 am

You guys are missing a major point on the action of take off and all other. The action determines the position, nota the other way. So if you train the action the position will follow.
Also, what procedure do you use to teach the act of pole vaulting? I find these discussions quite ironic that with an agreed upon curriculum these variances continue to come open for discussion.. If you want to talk to myself and Alan come to the clinic in Oregon City, or on June 7th, 8 and 9

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