What is your correct takeoff point?

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altius
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Re: What is your correct takeoff point?

Unread postby altius » Wed Jun 12, 2013 10:26 am

"I must say tho, that even between Agapit and Altius, there's disagreement in whether or not you can actually accelerate into the takeoff. I remember Agapit telling me that accelerating into takeoff was a pipe dream. I could dig up that thread if pressed "

I suggest that you do dig it up, but before you do that please take a look at the DATA provided by Nikonov and reprinted in BTB (-as I indicated above -) and you will see that it CLEARLY confirms what I have just said. But it seems that on pvp, mere opinion and vague memories always trump the facts.

I do find it incredible that folk who believe that they are at the cutting edge of discussion on technique in the pole vault have not even read - or at least begun to digest - a book that deals with virtually all of the issues of interest to vault coaches in a considered and detailed manner - but still believe they are operating at the cutting edge. I lived in the academic world for a while and such an approach would get you sacked pretty quickly from most reputable institutions!!!

But on pvp now the rule appears to be to never let the facts get in the way of a good opinion. Incidentally KIrk - when did you spend time discussing these issues with Roman? He lived with me for almost a year back in 91/92. And don't be surprised if he and i do disagree at times. Roman is attacking the question of technique in the pole vault from the perspective of an ideal model applied to exceptionally talented individuals - I always attack it from the more pragmatic position of - how can the fundamental principles of what Petrov said, be applied by ordinary coaches with ordinary athletes. And the fact is - as Roman knows as well as anyone and would happy to attest - I have had infinitely more experience doing that than he -or even Petrov - has.

A long while ago a philosopher said - If a Nobel prize winner cannot teach a nine year old child the essence of their expertise, they don't really know their field. And that is what I have seen over the past few weeks as 'experts' with virtually no practical experience in teaching or coaching vent their views - sometimes of course with the help of a little gentle plagiarism.

But yet again I will leave a topic before I become involved in yet another battle of verbal table tennis - and yes I do have the qualifications necessary to coach that great game.
Its what you learn after you know it all that counts. John Wooden

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Re: What is your correct takeoff point?

Unread postby altius » Wed Jun 12, 2013 10:26 am

"I must say tho, that even between Agapit and Altius, there's disagreement in whether or not you can actually accelerate into the takeoff. I remember Agapit telling me that accelerating into takeoff was a pipe dream. I could dig up that thread if pressed "

I suggest that you do dig it up, but before you do that please take a look at the DATA provided by Nikonov and reprinted in BTB (-as I indicated above -) and you will see that it CLEARLY confirms what I have just said. But it seems that on pvp, mere opinion and vague memories always trump the facts.

I do find it incredible that folk who believe that they are at the cutting edge of discussion on technique in the pole vault have not even read - or at least begun to digest - a book that deals with virtually all of the issues of interest to vault coaches in a considered and detailed manner - but still believe they are operating at the cutting edge. I lived in the academic world for a while and such an approach would get you sacked pretty quickly from most reputable institutions!!!

But on pvp now the rule appears to be to never let the facts get in the way of a good opinion. Incidentally KIrk - when did you spend time discussing these issues with Roman? He lived with me for almost a year back in 91/92. And don't be surprised if he and i do disagree at times. Roman is attacking the question of technique in the pole vault from the perspective of an ideal model applied to exceptionally talented individuals - I always attack it from the more pragmatic position of - how can the fundamental principles of what Petrov said, be applied by ordinary coaches with ordinary athletes. And the fact is - as Roman knows as well as anyone and would happy to attest - I have had infinitely more experience doing that than he -or even Petrov - has.

A long while ago a philosopher said - If a Nobel prize winner cannot teach a nine year old child the essence of their expertise, they don't really know their field. And that is what I have seen over the past few weeks as 'experts' with virtually no practical experience in teaching or coaching vent their views - sometimes of course with the help of a little gentle plagiarism.

But yet again I will leave a topic before I become involved in yet another battle of verbal table tennis - and yes I do have the qualifications necessary to coach that great game.
Its what you learn after you know it all that counts. John Wooden

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Re: What is your correct takeoff point?

Unread postby KirkB » Wed Jun 12, 2013 4:13 pm

IAmTheWalrus wrote:Can we agree that just watching videos does not count as scientific analysis? You need some data as well, and in all honesty, you need to be able to control for some variables as well.

Yes, I agree with that! :yes:

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Re: What is your correct takeoff point?

Unread postby KirkB » Wed Jun 12, 2013 4:27 pm

altius wrote: ... I suggest that you do dig it up, but before you do that please take a look at the DATA provided by Nikonov and reprinted in BTB (-as I indicated above -) and you will see that it CLEARLY confirms what I have just said. But it seems that on pvp, mere opinion and vague memories always trump the facts.

... But on pvp now the rule appears to be to never let the facts get in the way of a good opinion. Incidentally KIrk - when did you spend time discussing these issues with Roman? ...

Here's where you'll find Agapit's quote. Look at his quote on June 19, 2008. http://www.polevaultpower.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=15410&hilit=kirk+accelerate+takeoff

Instead of trying to taunt me into some silly, picky little argument (and attempting to slander or libel my memory and my knowledge of PV technique in the process), it seems to me that you should be sorting this issue out with Agapit! Don't shoot the messenger - I was just reporting what Agapit told me - on June 19, 2008!

Instead of slamming me about my lack of memory re this, you could have looked this up yourself. It took me less than a minute! :confused:

Let's stick to the issue at hand instead of slamming each other, eh?

So now that I've pointed Agapit's quote out IN BLACK AND WHITE, what do you have to say about the REAL issue here? Do vaulters accelerate during takeoff or not?

I like what Walrus said - never mind looking at vids or personal opinions - we need REAL scientific evidence from REAL bio-mechanics with real scientific instruments (not just vids) that have actually done things like (in this example) measured the acceleration or deceleration of elite vaulters like Bubka, and determined whether or not they actually accelerate or decelerate in their last few strides! :idea:

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Re: What is your correct takeoff point?

Unread postby AVC Coach » Wed Jun 12, 2013 11:09 pm

You know, I don't post much in the advanced forum because I'm not as scientific as most of the experts that post on here. I will say that I get a lot of good information from PVP and I like the interest that is shown in different aspects of the vault. I have only been coaching for 15 years but it irritates me when someone with no real experience in coaching successful athletes tries to express their so called "expertise" on this event that I love and continue to try to understand. I will never know it all or try to portray that I do. And until I produce a world record holder that's got a clearly superior angle to this event, I'm not going to pedal some stick framed model that I expect everyone to even consider to digest. It's hard to take any advice from anyone that has not produced a successful athlete. Period. If you can't watch a vault from any run or grip in real time and know instantly what they are doing and offer a few tips on what they can do to improve then you don't really know what the heck you're doing as a coach. Period.

I had minor success as a high school athlete in a small state that had never seen the likes of it before. That doesn't make me an expert on high school pole vaulting. I don't even coach my kids to do what I did. I had a lot of faults and I use a lot of my technique as a model of what not to do. I know what I felt when I had a good jump and I did several things correctly, but I only use that experience to steer or deter my athletes. I definitely don't want them to do everything I did.

We're not always going to have the freak athletes that just get it and have the determination to attempt to perfect it. In fact, most of them are going to be under-achievers. Every now and then we get lucky and that special athlete walks through the door. We have no control over that no matter how great of a motivator we think we are.

When it comes to the take-off point, I think we can strive for great and hope for good but most of the time we're going to get a mediocre "okay". Both men and women fall short of good and take off after the pole has made contact with the box. They might jump some big bars in our minds and momentarily convince us that they have it figured out, but most of us can't help but wonder what bars they could have cleared had they been cleaner off the ground.

Just my thoughts.....

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Re: What is your correct takeoff point?

Unread postby altius » Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:17 pm

As I have indicated above the 'data' is detailed in BTB. Always remember that Roman is always operating in his second language and stuff does not always come out as he intended. But I haven't got the time you seem to have Kirk to research and debate this irrelevant stuff - I actually spent 6 hours yesterday coaching kids and I am on deck from 9am until 8pm today - (just stopped in at the hotel to catch up with my wife for lunch) and again tomorrow -thats where my expertise comes from - not reading year old commentary that may or may not represent what someone said. Try some coaching - you might enjoy it.
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Re: What is your correct takeoff point?

Unread postby golfdane » Thu Jun 13, 2013 4:50 pm

Kirk, there's a big difference in 'accelerating INTO the take-off', and 'accelerating at take-off'.

Roman is arguing, that the free pole drop facilitates accelerating on the last few steps, but also (correctly) points out, that the take-off itself (assuming a take-off angle higher than a few percent), causes a loss in speed through the conversion, when you sacrifice horisontal speed to get a vertical component. However, the benefit of adding the vertical input, outweighs the loss in horisontal speed.

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Re: What is your correct takeoff point?

Unread postby KirkB » Thu Jun 13, 2013 8:06 pm

golfdane wrote:Kirk, there's a big difference in 'accelerating INTO the take-off', and 'accelerating at take-off'.

Roman is arguing, that the free pole drop facilitates accelerating on the last few steps, but also (correctly) points out, that the take-off itself (assuming a take-off angle higher than a few percent), causes a loss in speed through the conversion, when you sacrifice horisontal speed to get a vertical component. However, the benefit of adding the vertical input, outweighs the loss in horisontal speed.

Thanks for chiming in and clarifying this, GolfDane.

I like your thoughtful, well-reasoned, well-articulated reply far better than Altius' "reply with an attitude". :(

He complains about all the banter and personal attacks on PVP, yet he continues to insist on dishing it out - and then cries foul when anybody questions him on ANYTHING. :dazed:

Altius, I'm still waiting for your apology for libeling/slandering me re misquoting Agapit. I dug up the quote and proved to you IN BLACK AND WHITE, yet you still continue to rant and make excuses, instead of addressing the REAL ISSUES (as GolfDane just did). There is really no need for you to quibble and squabble. :no:

Whether you accelerate or decelerate on (or near) takeoff is not "irrelevant". It's key to a good vault, and if you (or anyone else) aren't sure of whether you're accelerating or decelerating on takeoff, then you'd better find out! :idea:

Kirk
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Re: What is your correct takeoff point?

Unread postby PVstudent » Wed Jun 19, 2013 8:56 pm

Acceleration into the take-off following and consequent upon the approach run and plant, with increased cadence over the final steps, into the touchdown of the take-off can and does produce an increase in final horizontal speed at the instant of touchdown for take-off.
However at touch down there will be a horizontal braking component acting to stop the foot and initiate a pivot about the foot by the total vault system (vaulter plus pole).

It is mechanically not possible to take-off and rotate the total system about the pole tip pivoting in the planting box without acceleration changing in magnitudes as well as direction. Golfdane is spot on in his suggestion!

To effect the take-off there will be deceleration (-ve acceleration) in the horizontal translatory motion of the vaulter in order to increase the vertical rate of translation in the vertical direction during the pivot about the take-off foot. This change is approximately in the ratio 3:1 by the instant of toe tip breaking ground contact.

Three units horizontal velocity to 1 unit vertical velocity gain gives a vaulter centre of mass projection angle of about 19-21 degrees to the horizontal. This is in fact broadly supported by empirical, scientifically valid pole vault studies conducted at Olympic Games and IAAF World Championships.

Energy exchange on the pole 11.jpg
Energy exchange on the pole 11.jpg (53.94 KiB) Viewed 8425 times


Petrov-Bubka Ideal Model Takeoff 2.jpg
Petrov-Bubka Ideal Model Takeoff 2.jpg (62.92 KiB) Viewed 8425 times


Bubka 3.jpg
Bubka 3.jpg (120.55 KiB) Viewed 8425 times


Roman's statement is, I believe correct, and substantiated as such by what scientific and objective empirical evidence is available.

But of course it will always be difficult to trump opinion with fact so let's stay cool and KISS!(Keep it simple and spring upwards in the takeoff.)
Every new opinion at its starting, is precisely a minority of one!

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Re: What is your correct takeoff point?

Unread postby altius » Wed Jun 19, 2013 9:16 pm

Kirk - Have YOU looked at the DATA that Nikonov provided on Bubka's acceleration into take off that is presented in BTB2? Does that indicate that he did or did not continue to accelerate IN TO take off - regardless of what happened at the instant of take off?

If by suggesting that you try coaching the pole vault instead of merely writing about it you think I am being nasty - so be it. But heres a thought - the 3000 copies of BTB are well on the way to being sold out. We are considering publishing it electronically but why don't you write your own version of such a book? Perhaps you could cooperate with PVDaddy?
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Re: What is your correct takeoff point?

Unread postby Chaebo » Thu Jun 20, 2013 12:52 am

I find this to be another irrelevant arguement on PVpower. It appears that everyone agrees that you whether you accelerate or decelerate into the last 3 strides leading into the take off they must in fact be done as fast as possible. Maybe from a science stand point Altius is correct but even knowing this I still try to coach the mentality of my athletes to accelerate into the box to try and increase their aggressiveness into the box. OK, So i may tell them a little white lie but my intentions are good. And since the goal of optimum speed is the same whether accereration does or does not occur would that not mean that the coaching would still remain relitively unchanged. I don't expect a response since I feel like i have been a convo killer here lately nor would i be upset with criticism but i just wanted to throw in the 2 cents of a neutral mind. Which many people forget to try and view others opinions from before retaliating.

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Re: What is your correct takeoff point?

Unread postby KirkB » Thu Jun 20, 2013 7:38 pm

altius wrote: Kirk ... If by suggesting that you try coaching the pole vault instead of merely writing about it you think I am being nasty - so be it. But here's a thought - the 3000 copies of BTB are well on the way to being sold out. ... why don't you write your own version of such a book? Perhaps you could cooperate with PVDaddy?

Here's a thought for YOU, Altius ...

I don't understand why you're so persistent in picking a fight with me. I have posted over 2,600 times on PVP, and in those posts, my first name and BTB2 have been mentioned together 139 times (now 140, including this post). That represents 32% of ALL the posts where BTB2 has been mentioned! AND you will not find a single disparaging remark that I've made against either yourself or your book - in all 2,600+ of my posts!

The ONLY question that I posed to you (earlier in this thread) was why you were claiming that a vaulter COULD accelerate into the takeoff whilst Agapit was claiming that a vaulter COULD NOT.

This was an honest, straight-forward question, and I expected an honest, straight-forward answer.
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