AGENDA 21 (Final draft)

This is a forum to discuss advanced pole vaulting techniques. If you are in high school you should probably not be posting or replying to topics here, but do read and learn.
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Re: AGENDA 21 (Final draft)

Unread postby PV2020 » Sun Sep 22, 2013 9:34 pm

PVDaddy wrote:So to sum it up IMHO these are the 5 key components of the Pole Vault TAP that we as coaches should be looking for.

1.) Great penetration and position post take off into the full body stretch (reverse-C) while..

I believe other than the fact that this increases the swings range of motion, the elevation of the trail leg also has the added benefit of serving as a counter weight to improve the vaulters body position. (Note these are my own thoughts and I have not read about this anywhere).

3.) The most vigorous downswing (Whipping action) the vaulter can possibly generate (If I was listing order of importance this would be number 1 by far!) while..

4) The bottom hand is re-extended both upward and forward with the pole (I believe the top hand also gets extended to a small degree as the elbow is very slightly flexed). IMHO I believe this moves the vaulter further away from the pole which makes the lever longer and more powerful with great coil range through shoulders and arms , assist in getting the shoulders back and the hips up,lowers the vaulters COG toward the feet and maintains constant pressure on the full body coil and the pole throughout the downswing.

5.) Complete extension of the entire body from the top hand to the swing leg heel, by stretching the swing leg heel to the pit. This is the culmination of the Pole vault foot tap and is termed Active-I.

Many believe there also exist a second opportunity for the vaulter to perform another tapping action at the top of the swing as the gymnast does at dismount and is the subject of my future research.


What I find most comical of this is your name PVDaddy. That is because if I were to ask my father to come up with a technical model this is what he would come up with. Parents generally notice a few key figures they think are massively important in the vault.

Things I commonly hear:

You need to make that BIG C shape position all the good guys are doing!

BEND THE POLE MORE! Just straighten your left arm!


I rarely hear a parent mention swing speed though, they seem to think you can magically go from the BIG C to upside down. As it appears in your theory. if you push the left arm up and forward along with slightly flexing in the top arm I am going to bet most athletes you coach have a problem keeping that long swing into a vertical position and usually flag off or 'block'. That is because there is too much delay from trying to hit that massive C and they are not elastic enough to swing through to the proper positions.

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Re: AGENDA 21 (Final draft)

Unread postby PVDaddy » Mon Sep 30, 2013 10:48 pm

In closing, The pole vault presents two excellent "Tapping action" opportunities for the vaulter to generate additional active energy to the swing and inversion while in the coiled positions of Reverse-C and Inverted-C. Pulling during the downswing destroys the TAP. Pulling during the upswing, as your feet pass the chord, assist it. This tapping action is a full body action while going through and out of the coil and is the same action that gymnast perform on the high bar during the downswing, upswing and dismount. I am convinced Bubka learned these actions very early on in his gymnastic training years and carried them forward to the vault and are of paramount importance to the vaulter for generating maximum energy of the swing, inversion and fly-away. It is of no importance what term you chose to describe this beneficial action, but, only that you perfect it, and exploit it, to full advantage.
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Re: AGENDA 21 (Final draft)

Unread postby altius » Tue Oct 01, 2013 8:35 pm

"I am convinced Bubka learned these actions very early on in his gymnastic training years and carried them forward to the vault".

Is this just your opinion or have you talked with him about this? What 'gymnastic training years' are you talking about? My understanding is that he only came to use and value gymnastics late in his career. In his early years - like most youngsters - he played a number of sports but did no special work in gymnastics before he started vaulting. If he did do what you are suggesting I don't think he 'knew' he was doing it. I have listened to him speak about his technique publicly and had a two hour interview with him in Munich in 1990 to discuss his technical model but he never mentioned any of the issues you are raising. It is also clear that he has never discussed them with Roman who has had even longer more personal discussions with him.

" It is of no importance what term you chose to describe this beneficial action, but, only that you perfect it, and exploit it, to full advantage."

However I would appreciate it if you could take us through the process you would use to help an athlete, "perfect it and exploit it (them) to full advantage".
Its what you learn after you know it all that counts. John Wooden

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Re: AGENDA 21 (Final draft)

Unread postby altius » Tue Oct 01, 2013 8:35 pm

"I am convinced Bubka learned these actions very early on in his gymnastic training years and carried them forward to the vault".

Is this just your opinion or have you talked with him about this? What 'gymnastic training years' are you talking about? My understanding is that he only came to use and value gymnastics late in his career. In his early years - like most youngsters - he played a number of sports but did no special work in gymnastics before he started vaulting. If he did do what you are suggesting I don't think he 'knew' he was doing it. I have listened to him speak about his technique publicly and had a two hour interview with him in Munich in 1990 to discuss his technical model but he never mentioned any of the issues you are raising. It is also clear that he has never discussed them with Roman who has had even longer more personal discussions with him.

" It is of no importance what term you chose to describe this beneficial action, but, only that you perfect it, and exploit it, to full advantage."

However I would appreciate it if you could take us through the process you would use to help an athlete, "perfect it and exploit it (them) to full advantage".
Its what you learn after you know it all that counts. John Wooden

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Re: AGENDA 21 (Final draft)

Unread postby PVDaddy » Wed Oct 02, 2013 1:32 am

Sergey was selected for special coaching in gymnastics at 8 years old, before he ever worked with Petrov.

He started working Petrov when he was only 10 years old. Gymnastics training has always been very important aspect of Petrov's program. Trust me Sergey had performed many High bar taps early on. Here is what he had to say about it.

Maybe the greatest thing that Petrov helped me understand was The Culture of Movement. He showed me that the pole vault was really two sports. It was athletics on the runway: during the approach run and takeoff, and it was gymnastics once you were in the air and until you cleared the bar.

Think he may be referring to what he learned from the high bar TAP to increase the power of your swing, inversion and fly-away ?


Here he is practicing his gymnastic skills in 1986 but he had been doing this for a long time previous. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GCk-xkE_j5E

What do you think were going to be doing to perfect our swing skills, inversions and fly-aways Altius?
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Re: AGENDA 21 (Final draft)

Unread postby altius » Wed Oct 02, 2013 3:14 am

I think you may be confusing physical education with gymnastics - the following is what Sergei had to say about that early experience in gymnastics.
"From the age of eight I began physical education classes in school and took part in sporting competitions between schools and also between the different classes. I could really run until I was dead on the sports field because I had to win. As long as I can remember, what I call the Spirit of Sport-the competitive spirit was in my blood. I realized that sport was something fantastic. When I do sport, or anything else in my life, it must be 100 per cent or 1000 per cent. I must give everything I have. This is part of my character.
In my first class, because I had good speed and coordination, I was selected for special coaching in gymnastics. But when I showed up, as they asked me to, at 8 am one morning, the teacher told us we had to walk to the gymnastic hall. When I asked how far it was and the teacher replied, “It is about 15 minutes walking,” I decided that it was too far and so I went home!' Sergei Bubka

"Think he may be referring to what he learned from the high bar TAP to increase the power of your swing, inversion and fly-away ?" No I dont think he was referring to that at all". Of course gymnastics was an important aspect of his training, but my understanding is that he has stated that gymnastics impacted him later in his career.

So with regard to the importance of the issues you raise I can only say that apart from a general statement about the place of gymnastics in his overall program I have never heard him raise of the issue of the 'tap' in his performance. I still think it is much ado about nothing - but you enjoy that sort of thing.

"What do you think were going to be doing to perfect our swing skills, inversions and fly-aways Altius?" Not sure what this means - but as I repeatedly state I will wait patiently to see the results of your endeavours as a real coach. Always happy to learn new ideas and methods from real experts who have found them to work in practice. So I really would appreciate it if you could take us through the process you would use to help an athlete, "perfect it and exploit it (them) to full advantage".

But it is clear you remain locked in - making up whatever you like, and ignoring the wisdom of folk like PVstudent who can buy and sell you both as a coach and bio mechanist- so like others before me I retire from the fray on this topic. Fortunately I am pretty confident that very few, if any, PVP members are taking any notice of your opinions.
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Re: AGENDA 21 (Final draft)

Unread postby PVDaddy » Wed Oct 02, 2013 6:50 pm

Your rudeness, arrogance and ignorance Altius, is beyond the pale.

"From the age of eight I began physical education classes in school and took part in sporting competitions between schools and also between the different classes. I could really run until I was dead on the sports field because I had to win. As long as I can remember, what I call the Spirit of Sport-the competitive spirit was in my blood. I realized that sport was something fantastic. When I do sport, or anything else in my life, it must be 100 per cent or 1000 per cent. I must give everything I have. This is part of my character.
In my first class, because I had good speed and coordination, I was selected for special coaching in gymnastics.


Sergey, was performing High Bar Taps from the time he was 8 years old. He began his training with Petrov at 10 to years of age which was unusual because Petrov normally did not except students until the age of 15 or 16, but because he so impressed his other teachers with his speed, strength and unusual coordination, especially in gymnastic skills, Petrov excepted him early. Bubka continued his Gymnastic training from 8 to the end of his vaulting career. Believe what you want.

Altius:
I am pretty confident that very few, if any, PVP members are taking any notice of your opinions
.

Well, I have done my best to research and share my honest opinions and that was my sole purpose. It was you who suggested I create a thread on my own opinions and methods here and to start coaching kids. Well, I have done both. What you have done here, at the end of my hard work, tells me all I want to know about you. Don't expect me to reply any more to your petty, insecure, useless, thoughtless and rude ramblings here or anywhere else anymore. I could care less about who your friends in Australia could buy and sell as well.

What I really hope more than anything else, is that members will notice that your promotion of the Pull during the downswing swing (I have one final post on here on this subject and I'm out) is the biggest cockamamie bull that was ever promoted here on PVP ! If that is accomplished, then your years of rudeness and arrogance toward me will be well worth the it! :) YOUR GIG IS OVER!
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Re: AGENDA 21 (Final draft)

Unread postby vaultman18 » Thu Oct 03, 2013 12:34 am

I am literally laughing my a$$ off reading this stuff. Oh how I wish I had the time debate.....This is like watching a train wreck with the one guy who actually knows how to drive the train trying like hell to get it back on the rails with to no avail. Alan in my honest opinion you should just save your sanity and let pvdaddy talk himself out. I will say I am very curious to know who pvdaddy actually is. Pvdaddy are you ready to put your real name on any of these theories? Cheers!

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Re: AGENDA 21 (Final draft)

Unread postby altius » Thu Oct 03, 2013 1:30 am

"But when I showed up, as they asked me to, at 8 am one morning, the teacher told us we had to walk to the gymnastic hall. When I asked how far it was and the teacher replied, “It is about 15 minutes walking,” I decided that it was too far and so I went home!' Sergei Bubka

Strange how that bit got left off of your quote!!!!!!!!

But it is clear that you have not read BTB in which I present the orthodox view of the inversion NOR my mea culpa that explains why I changed my opinion. Nor do you understand why this issue is basically irrelevant to coaching vaulters from beginner out to at least 5.95 - but I suspect 6.40m or even 21'. Just do some more coaching and perhaps you will begin to understand this and other issues related to the vault. However if you really are serious about learning and not simply pontificating, why don't you go to Formia to spend time with Petrov, to Perth with Parnov or, dare I say it, to Knoxville with Botcharnikov.

You are right vaultman18. But I just get bored - so dealing with folk who have serious issues becomes fun. But I will just have have to finish my book on the teaching of football/soccer to you guys over the pond -- keep on walking Fred -- and perhaps wash the car a bit more often. :yes:
Its what you learn after you know it all that counts. John Wooden

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Re: AGENDA 21 (Final draft)

Unread postby PVDaddy » Fri Jan 24, 2014 2:38 am

As I have stated in previous post I believe there should be 3 Axis of Rotation of the vaulters body in the ideal vault.

The first axis of rotation occurs at the top hand. For this to occur correctly the vaulter must plant tall while standing as perfectly erect as possible with both hands extending upward as far as possible into a free take off. It is not only necessary for the top hand to be extended directly above the plant foot as high as possible with bicep pressed along the ear but the bottom hand must also be extended at least above the head. If you are not able to achieve this position while standing at plant then your grip is to wide. The key to obtaining a rotation about the top hand is to not pull after plant but to focus instead on continuing to reach up and to allow your mass and acceleration of your body with chest forward leading your body between your arms to naturally load the vaulter/pole system at the top hand. This creates a complete stretch of your body from your hands all the way through the body (especially the shoulders) to the swing leg toe. Your hands must be allowed to extend back over your head and this will naturally occur provided you continue to extend both arms upward through penetration. It is important to elevate the bottom leg to extend the range of motion of the whip and to provide a counter weight for the body so that the chest is forward leading the way through the arms. From this pre-stretched reverse-C position you will be able to generate an enormous amount of power in your whip. Provided you continue to extend your hands upward the first axis of rotation will naturally occur at the top hand throughout your down swing (It has to!). It is crucial to extend your downswing heel to the pit to make your whip and your lever as long and as powerful as possible. This position is referred to as the Active-I(The completion of the downswing Tap).

It is from this position that the axis of rotation must transfer from the top hand to the hip joint (the most powerful muscle group in the body). This begins the upswing of the whip. So the whip must come from the hip! Of course the abdomens must also be used to maximum benefit. Breaking at the hips shortens the radius of the swing and therefore maintains it velocity in the upswing. Now the axis of rotation is on the hip joint (The 2nd axis of rotation). Once your swing leg foot has passed the pole, the pole has reached maximum bend, so the chord of the pole (The line from your top hand to the butt of the pole) is now at its shortest and has also rotated (Because you did NOT pull, but extended upward) to vertical (The chord, not the pole!). You have now done EVERYTHING possible to ensure the forward role of the pole (The objective of every good and safe vault) into penetration!

Now that the chord of the pole has rolled to the vertical position and you have passed it in your upswing (which ensures the continued forward roll of the pole), you want to maintain the speed of your whip upward through a pulling effort of both arms through the shoulders (A cable effect. I have now explained why I believe this is the correct timing of the pull). This pulling effort must be maintained right through the swing through the backward leaned, rocked back position as the swing leg meets the drive leg and both the legs are vigorously straightened (Extended,Thrusted) upward along with the extension upward of the hips as the body straightens through the very active use of the back and abdominal muscles.

Throughout this process the axis of rotation changes from the hip joint to the shoulder joint (The final and 3rd axis of rotation) with the laying back of the head and shoulders in a straight line. The reason many vaulters are not good at laying back there shoulders is that they do not allow (Utilize) a full axis of rotation through their shoulder joints. The hands never pull toward the feet. To the contrary the vaulter must extend the whip leg all the way until the hip makes contact very close to the top arm elbow. This is the ideal inversion position! The pulling effort of the bottom hand must be seamlessly blended to a pushing effort of the bottom hand toward the pit to add vertical energy by pushing the vaulters body away from the pole and insure it receives the maximum amount of energy the uncoiling pole has to offer (The completion of the upswing Tap).

Even though the axis of rotation has changed from the top hand, to the hip joint, to the shoulder joint, there are two axis of rotation occurring together through the transfer period. The vaulter must ALWAYS maintain pressure out at the end of the lever of the pole (The top hand) throughout the entire off ground phase of the vault! This ensures that the pole maintains maximum bend and the shortest chord possible for its forward role and also allows the vaulter time to be in the best vertical position to receive the full and proper release of energy through the center of the vaulters body as the pole uncoils for launch off!

Now that I have explained my rational on "when and How I believe the vaulter should pull", this concludes my final post on PVP and my completion of Agenda 21.
I hope that my exhaustive, yet VERY interesting journey into understanding the art of the vault has provide someone with some benefit.
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Re: AGENDA 21 (Final draft)

Unread postby PVDaddy » Fri Jan 24, 2014 3:37 am

Now that the chord of the pole has rolled to the vertical position and you have passed it in your upswing (which ensures the continued forward roll of the pole), you want to maintain the speed of your whip upward through a pulling effort of both arms through the shoulders (A cable effect. I have now explained why I believe this is the correct timing of the pull)


Should have said: Now that the pole has rolled to the vertical position and you have passed it in your upswing (which ensures the continued forward roll of the pole), you want to maintain the speed of your whip upward through a pulling effort of both arms through the shoulders (A cable effect. I have now explained why I believe this is the correct timing of the pull)
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Re: AGENDA 21 (Final draft)

Unread postby PVDaddy » Mon Jan 27, 2014 9:24 pm

I had mentioned months ago I would make one final post defending my position as to why I believed the ideal time to pull was immediately after the vaulter broke at the hips and in this post I explained.
1) If you train the vaulter to pull prior to this time you are jeopardizing the safety and efficiency of the vault because you are limiting the elasticity of the vaulter thereby the efficiency of the swing and of equal importance the ability of the pole to roll forward. Any coach worth there salt understands the importance of this principal and safety.
2) As the swing leg foot has passed the pole, the pole has already completed the very important process of rolling over to the vertical position (From the box to the point of were the bend begins, the pole is vertical).
3) At this point in the swing the vaulter has to fight the forces of gravity in the upswing and this is assisted with the pull.
4) The vaulter is in the ideal bio-mechanical position to employ the maximum benefit of the pull. The hands are in the ideal placement.
5) It has the effect of helping to shoot the vaulter skyward at the ideal time of flyaway. And Finally
6) It has a symbiotic relation ship with the bottom hand push as the the motion is integrated into one seamless action!

These conclusions were arrived at and are the culmination of my lengthy study of the art of the vault.
it is my hope that this old sleepy dog is finally put to bed! Goodnight!
Every jot and every tittle adds up to more than just a little.


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