AGENDA 21 (Final draft)

This is a forum to discuss advanced pole vaulting techniques. If you are in high school you should probably not be posting or replying to topics here, but do read and learn.
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Re: AGENDA 21 (Final draft)

Unread postby coachjvinson » Thu Mar 21, 2013 11:35 pm

altius wrote:Then with regard to “negative inversion”. I believe it is only another term – and possibly a confusing one - for “covering the pole”.

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Re: AGENDA 21 (Final draft)

Unread postby altius » Fri Mar 22, 2013 2:07 am

The cheque is in the mail grandevaulter. And to think that I am only a "physedder"! Now let me promote my book on the teaching of sport - you will find it in the sales section of PVP. Not sure if it has made it to Amazon yet.
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Re: AGENDA 21 (Final draft)

Unread postby PVDaddy » Sun Mar 24, 2013 3:05 am

Altius, You, yourself have stated that Petrovs model is built around two key concepts (although I believe it is much more then this, however, these two are INDEED KEY but difficult for even the elite) Free take off and covering the pole (Inverting on top of a bent pole). Much has been written now about free take off and I believe this concept is beginning to take hold and is being achieved more often. From my findings a whole lot less is written about how to properly cover a bent pole and very few are achieving it properly. You, yourself have stated (In fact just recently I believe) that very few American vaulters are getting properly on top of the bent pole.
I believe it is because to few coaches have fully taken hold of the Petrov/Bubka model and that Bubka Exhibits (like I have so often repeated now on PV Power) elements in his vault that are not described in any detail in the Petrov Model. Hence my reason for developing Agenda 21. I have tried my best (Although it truthfully is not a complete finish product yet and I will still make additions/changes and improvements to it as my ever increasing knowledge and wisdom base increases) at identifying those other key elements I understand you have access to other writings and speeches from Petrov that many people have never seen or heard.
Getting Negatively inverted on top of a BENT pole is by no means the central thesis of Agenda 21, but, it is a VERY important part of it for several reasons. The Major reason is that it requires the student of its method to fully explore EVERY aspect of the vault because EVERY ASPECT OF THE VAULT MUST BE MASTERED IN ORDER TO ACHIEVE IT. A goal well worth pursuing! I do not need to tell you that the vast majority of vaulters (and I'm speaking about the vast majority of junior high through college vaulters) don't even get on top of the pole at all! The vast majority pull and push from underneath it. Of the elite vaulters, the majority do not fully invert (Vertical) and very few are able to negatively invert. One of the reasons for this is that we have to many rowing vaulters and to many tuck and shoot vaulters. I do not believe Rowing should be an element of the vault whatsoever. I would love to know what Petrov feels about this! I truly believe if Jeff Hartwig was not a tuck and shoot vaulter he could be the current world record holder! Just my opinion. I believe the other major reasons are that coaches are both not fully interpreting Petrovs methods and that Petrov/Bubka methods are not fully explained. Most of these unexplained concepts can be found in my negative inversion thread and I have more to say about that and these additions will be included when I update Agenda 21.

I cannot understand why you can not see the difference between partial inversion (on top of the pole but still leaning toward the crossbar), Inversion (covering the pole. vertical) and negative inversion (on top of the pole. slight lean toward the runway)? They are not one in the same and the resulting flight pattern will differ from each position. You said yourself the pole is bent when covering the pole. I think that you agree it is very important for vaulters center of mass to stay on the chord of the pole from active-I (Coming out of the downswing at the Chord) through inversion (Inverted-I) to keep it fully loaded. The chord of the pole (The straight line from the top of the pole the butt, The pole is bent.) while the vaulter is inverted IT IS NOT A VERTICAL LINE It is angled toward the runway! So for a vaulter to stay with the chord of the pole too, like he should, to keep it fully loaded before recoil, he must be angled toward the runway.

I think that most vaulters assume and are incorrectly trained that because they are vertical that they have gone for enough, when in fact they have broken the cardinal rule of staying with the chord of the pole throughout their rotation and the uncoiling of the pole. The other problem is that far to many vaulters are icorrectly trained to row in this position by bringing the top arm to the body (Which forces the top arm in front of the chord of the pole) instead of bringing the body to the arm. If they would just bring there body all the way to the top arm (The top arm is the chord of the pole if they keep it there) the body would stop (it has to it can go no further!) on the chord of the pole before the pole uncoils in a slightly negatively inverted position.

Here is what Petrov had to say on the notion of covering the pole as quoted on page 267 of BTB2,
“The rock back should be done by simultaneously shifting the body parts – legs up shoulders down. This puts the athlete into position to ensure that the energy of the recoil is directed almost vertically through the centre of mass of the vaulter who also straightens upwards along the pole.

The rock back and upswing must be completed before the pole begins to straighten, the rock back and upswing is considered complete when the vaulter has managed to cover the arc of the pole with his hips and legs; while the legs serve as a continuation of the upper end of the pole.”

AND
“Covering the arc of the pole with his hips and legs, while the legs somehow serve as the continuation of the upper end of the pole. It may be better to think of covering the bent pole. This delays the recoil of the pole, maintains the bend fractionally longer and lets the vaulter/pole system move forward more quickly. In essence it allows the vaulter to get into the best possible position to exploit the recoil of the pole.”


If my interpretation (I did not interpret it this way when I first read it a few years ago did you?) of this is correct Petrov is saying that the vaulter would have to be beyond vertical (What I have termed negative inversion) in order to cover THE ARC of the pole with his hips and legs and that Petrov believes that a beyond vertical position is what constitutes a good vault!

Wow thank-you for pointing this out Allen, it appears Petrov is advocating an inversion beyond vertical in his writings!
Why have I never heard this discussed amongst coaches if this is the standard Petrov set, or seen it done by more vaulters. Have most of us failed to interpret this correctly? This is just something I saw in Bubkas vault!

I have alread explained what I believe Bubka does so differently, that he is able to obtain this position. There is more to follow.

Just because I use vocabulary such as "Fully Integrated system" (I have no idea who said that first) does not mean I am suggesting I coined that for pole vaulting first. Why do you assume Im suggesting that?
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Re: AGENDA 21 (Final draft)

Unread postby altius » Sun Mar 24, 2013 6:29 am

Sorry old son but I have said all I want to say - or am going to say - on this topic in this specific forum. You can carry on if you like but I have returned to actually coaching youngsters - and washing my car - you do what you like.

While I am not as sensitive as Kirk McBrYde about the spelling of my name, it is Alan not Allen. However you can use whatever suits you. :yes:
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Re: AGENDA 21 (Final draft)

Unread postby PVDaddy » Sun Mar 24, 2013 10:23 am

Well then I will use Alan but probably Altius much more often, real names are dangerous around these parts! Thanks for not taking it personal ! :yes:
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Re: AGENDA 21 (Final draft)

Unread postby PVDaddy » Sun Mar 31, 2013 12:27 am

RUNNING FAST WITH THE POLE LIKE BUBKA


We all know Bubka was fast. There are other elite vaulters, such as Scott Huffman, that were faster, but Bubka was perhaps the fastest vaulter in history with a pole in his hands. I have been studying videos of his approach running down the runway and going into his 3-step plant to see if there was something special in his technique and have made the following observations. I began by searching through this forum and also on the internet and cannot find much of what I am about to describe.

I will begin by describing what I have learned, from Brian Clymer's (A sprints coach) excellent video demonstartion of Bubka's vault (There is a link to it on the bottom of this post). Bubka does all of this.

1) Clymer first emphasizes the importance of maintaining correct neutral posture of the hips, by maximally lengthening the spine, in order to keep the pelvis in direct line with the spine. Perfectly vertical hips.

2) He then describes how the emphasis of the stride must be to the front of and not behind the vaulters body.

3) We all know the legs must be lifted high (Ostrich steps). This begins and is established early by the very first step out of the back.

4) He then says the legs must be brought down with great force from the thigh. Punch the ground from above

5) He then says the feet must make contact with the runway directly below the vaulters body. There will be controversy on this subject as most believe they should be forward of the body when vaulting, however, I have studied Bubka's vault and he makes contact directly below his body.

6) He then stresses that you do not smash (squash) your feet on the runway, but POP your feet, off the runway.

7) Finally, he makes the point that when the foot makes contact with the runway, both thighs must be parallel with each This is a Golden position of proper sprint technique.

8) A high pole carry with an Active pole drop(This greatly reduces the weight of the pole and as the pole drops, its forward momentum and inertia, causes the vaulter to accelerate and to become more erect, at the perfect time and posture, to counteract this forward weight. The pole effectively carries the vaulter down the runway throughout the run-up and into plant. See Butlers article. THE POLE CARRY AND ACTIVE POLE DROP :
http://www.nacactfca.org/Butler%20pole% ... n'%204.doc


My observations and thoughts

Premise: In correct sprint technique, the opposite hand moves forward with the opposite leg (right hand with left leg, left hand with right leg). We do this naturally when we walk or run. This is a beneficial system as it adds balance and force to the activity. The swinging arms add balance and forward thrust to the body. If the hands move fast, so do the feet, and the body is propelled forward in a balanced manner. The movement and weight of the arms greatly assist in the movement of the legs and body.

Problem: Besides the fact that the pole adds weight (This is greatly reduced by the high pole Carry and active pole drop) and inertia, it must be carried by the hands and on one side of the body. The hands are tied up and have no ability to swing with the opposite leg. To make matters worse there is more weight on one side of the body, so the body is out of balance, with more inertia (The mass of the pole) on the pole side, during the run.

It is my observation and opinion that Bubka counters these problems by doing the following:

9)He keeps the pole centered (not tipped to the left) on his body which reduces the weight and inertia on one side. He also does not have to move the pole back to center at plant which would throw him off balance at this critical time.

10) He keeps the poles motion (forward and backward) to a minimum to limit the inertia of the pole on one side. A poles great inertia swinging widely back and forth on one side of your body will throw off the balance of your run.

11) He makes sure the pole contacts his hip to reduce its large forward inertia as it comes forward with the opposite leg. This also helps him establish the feel of cadence and rhythm of the run.

12) To further counteract the poles right side inertia Bubka swings the non- pole side elbow forward with the opposite leg. This also serves as a swinging arm and brings the systems non-pole side and pole side inertia now into equal balance.

13) He cannot use his arms, so instead he swingss the shoulder's forward through the sternum and shoulder joints. (opposite leg, opposite shoulder).


He continues this opposite side paradigm maintaining perfect balance of inertia and rhythm throughout the run-up, but must do the following things to continue it through the 3-step plant:


14) As hes coming on to his 3rd to last step the pole still comes forward still, but not quite as much (He has just released from the hip to begin the plant) with the opposite leg.

15) As hes coming on to his Penultimate step the opposite hand moves froward toward the plant box to plant the pole

16) Finally, As hes coming on to the Plant foot the top hand Moves up and Forward at plant with the plant foot.


The hands, or the simulation of the hands (whether it be the pole contacting the hips, the shoulders or the non-pole side elbow) ALL move slightly BEFORE the opposite side stride leg. This is true during the run-up and through the planting motions. If the hands move fast, the legs will follow and also move fast.


From the very first step to the last, Bubka is able to simulate the inertia of a swinging arm with the opposite striding leg, all in perfect balance, rhythm and harmony and therefore is able to accelerate down the runway!

Clymers excellent sprint technique can be found at the the beginning of the video (link below) You can compare my observations of Bubkas running with the pole technique at the very end of the Video.

Joseph M. Maxwell
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0e1q_59KHBM
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Re: AGENDA 21 (Final draft)

Unread postby grandevaulter » Sun Mar 31, 2013 1:45 pm

PVDaddy wrote: I began by searching through this forum and also on the internet and cannot find much of what I am about to describe.


PVDaddy wrote:2) He then describes how the emphasis of the stride must be to the front of and not behind the vaulters body.

The trail leg position is as important to the stride cycle as the front/drive leg. This requires a better description to make sense.

PVDaddy wrote:3) We all know the legs must be lifted high (Ostrich steps). This begins and is established early by the very first step out of the back.

High knee is only a fraction of the "BTB2 Ostrich step",

PVDaddy wrote:5) He then says the feet must make contact with the runway directly below the vaulters body. There will be controversy on this subject as most believe they should be forward of the body when vaulting, however, I have studied Bubka's vault and he makes contact directly below his body.


This is not correct. Keep watching.

PVDaddy wrote:4) He then says the legs must be brought down with great force from the thigh. Punch the ground from above


A dorsi flexed foot will produce this action without conscious effort.

quote[="PVDaddy"]8) A high pole carry with an Active pole drop(This greatly reduces the weight of the pole and as the pole drops,

It does not reduce the weight. It balances the pole to make it feel less in weight.

PVDaddy wrote:its forward momentum and inertia, causes the vaulter to accelerate and to become more erect, at the perfect time and posture, to counteract this forward weight.


The vaulter accelerates and the active pole drop aids in the vaulter keeping his / her balance, it creates a non passive phase that also allows the vaulter to keep their posture. The pole does not cause this, the vaulter does.

PVDaddy wrote:The pole effectively carries the vaulter down the runway throughout the run-up and into plant.


It is not a magic carpet. It does not carry the vaulter. An efficient active pole drop allows the vaulter to more naturally accelerate by not fighting gravity and freeing them from some of the tension created by running with a long pole.

PVDaddy wrote:3) We all know the legs must be lifted high (Ostrich steps). This begins and is established early by the very first step out of the back.
[/quote]

The first thing out of the back is a claw pushing off.

If we are going to coach young athletes we really need to understand the great material that is already out there.(that is termed correctly) Reading BTB2 watching the Launder videos and teaching the drills (running, planting, swinging, pivoting that apply to the technique make this much easier to understand. There is more to the BTB2 book than just the models and the case studies. There is a wide variety of information. Thorough examination of the material in the book will give you a better understanding of developing your own ideas.

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Re: AGENDA 21 (Final draft)

Unread postby PVDaddy » Mon Apr 01, 2013 2:03 pm

grandvaulter said: T
he trail leg position is as important to the stride cycle as the front/drive leg. This requires a better description to make sense.

Take it up with Clymer not me however I agree with Clymer.

grandvaulter said:
High knee is only a fraction of the "BTB2 Ostrich step",


Ya? So what?

grandvaulter said:
This is not correct. Keep watching.


You refuse to believe what you see for yourself because its not what you always told everybody else. Your wrong Clymer's right. The video is irrefutable Bubkas feet come well under his body! DEAL with it!

grandvaulter said:
It is not a magic carpet. It does not carry the vaulter. An efficient active pole drop allows the vaulter to more naturally accelerate by not fighting gravity and freeing them from some of the tension created by running with a long pole.
Take it up with Butler. Its only a figure of speach anyway?

grandvaulter said:T
he first thing out of the back is a claw pushing off.
Explain your claw push in DETAIL? Never heard of it?
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Re: AGENDA 21 (Final draft)

Unread postby grandevaulter » Mon Apr 01, 2013 3:02 pm

PVDaddy wrote: he trail leg position is as important to the stride cycle as the front/drive leg. This requires a better description to make sense.


Take it up with Clymer not me however I agree with Clymer.


Please clarify why the forward position is more important than the rear.

PVDaddy wrote: High knee is only a fraction of the "BTB2 Ostrich step",



Ya? So what?


Hopefully you can produce a video of what an ostrich step looks like or explain it in simple words. "Ya, so what " does not explain much.

PVDaddy wrote: This is not correct. Keep watching.



You refuse to believe what you see for yourself because its not what you always told everybody else. Your wrong Clymer's right. The video is irrefutable Bubkas feet come well under his body! DEAL with it!

Watch more closely.

PVDaddy wrote: It is not a magic carpet. It does not carry the vaulter. An efficient active pole drop allows the vaulter to more naturally accelerate by not fighting gravity and freeing them from some of the tension created by running with a long pole.

Take it up with Butler. Its only a figure of speach anyway?

The pole does not carry anyone. The vaulter carries the pole. Butler may want look at his material more closely. I'm not sold on the "One arm pole vaulter story" and wolverines make good house pets.

PVDaddy wrote: he first thing out of the back is a claw pushing off.

Explain your claw push in DETAIL? Never heard of it?

Get out a set of starting blocks, buy a book that tells you how to use them, then pick up a pole and stand at the end of the approach and give it a whirl.

Writing a paper to break the world record is a noble endeavor. Good luck. I'll be out helping athletes condition, work on drills and providing them with accurate information in terms that they (and anyone else can understand).

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Re: AGENDA 21 (Final draft)

Unread postby PVDaddy » Tue Apr 23, 2013 1:55 am

The 6 step planting drill that I created goes like this:

Stand erect with both legs lined up. Make a conscious effort to elongate your spine with emphasis of keeping your pelvis neutral, in line with your spine and legs. Hold the pole Chest height at 45 degrees. Control the pole with the thumb and forefinger with both hands.

1) As you raise (emphasis on high steps) your right knee (6th step) flare the left elbow forward with it. When you land on the foot the pole is allowed to move back behind the hip, It wants to. The bottom hand is lowered one fist length with the weight of the descending pole. It wants to.

2) As you raise the left knee (5th step) the pole is brought forward with it and makes contact with the right hip. The right shoulder is also moved forward with it. When you land on the foot the pole is allowed to move back behind the hip. The bottom hand is lowered another fist length with the weight of the descending pole.

3) As you raise your right knee (4th step) flare the left elbow forward with it. When you land on the foot the pole is allowed to move back behind the hip. The bottom hand is lowered another fist length with the weight of the descending pole and is now at is lowest point, about waist height.

4) As you raise the left knee (3rd step) the pole is brought forward with it and makes contact with the right hip. The right shoulder is also moved forward with it. When you land on the foot (3rd step) the pole must be turned over (readied for the plant) and is allowed to move back behind the hip. As the left trail leg heel comes up, the top hand comes up with it

5) As you raise the right knee (Penultimate step) the left (Bottom) hand is extended (2/3 rds) forward with it to plant the pole, while the top hand moves forward and up to temple height by the time the foot touches the ground.

6) As you raise the left knee (Plant step) the top hand moves up and forward with it and is completely extended by the time the plant foot touches the ground.

To make the drills easier to learn (Simplify) the student must be taught that with each step there is an opposite side simulation of a swinging arm, whether that be the elbow flare, the pole moving forward with hip contact, the flaring forward of the right shoulder, the extension forward of the bottom hand to plant the pole in the box or the movement of the top hand up and forward at plant . They are also taught and understand that with each foot contact the pole must be allowed to move back behind the hip. To further simplify it, they are taught that the 6th, 5th and 4th steps are virtually the same. They quickly and easily learn these steps by just running with the pole this way. When the pole gets to a 45 degree angle they just let the hand drop a fist length each time the foot touches the ground with the weight of the descending pole. They learn that this must begin at their mid mark.

After they learn this it now is just a matter of concentrating on the last 3 steps. We do this slowly, over and over again ad nauseaum until it is PERFECTED in slow motion. Every day! The most important drill we do! Were the vault is born! When they get it down we put the whole thing together (Runway only) planting on a towel. The pace is picked up until it becomes intuitive and they can do it full speed in a real vault.

You can see all of these perfectly executed motion performed by Bubka starting at frame 24:04 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0e1q_59KHBM
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Re: AGENDA 21 (Final draft)

Unread postby rainbowgirl28 » Tue Apr 23, 2013 12:27 pm

PV Daddy do you have video of your athletes doing this drill?

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Re: AGENDA 21 (Final draft)

Unread postby clymb » Sat Apr 27, 2013 11:48 pm

PVDaddy wrote:IMPORTANT POINTS OF EMPHASIS for AGENDA 21


1) Perfect run up, pole Cary and plant into free take off.
We all know the importance of pole Cary, run-up, plant, and free take-off, and that the majority of energy is obtained and transferred to the pole at this time. So of course perfecting these things are critical!


The BIGGEST mistakes that most elite vaulters make and why they cant obtain negative inversion, is what they do (or do not do) after take-off.

2) Penetration, Penetration, Penetration! ( WITH NO PULLING OR ROWING!)
The importance of chest penetration into the full body stretched invert-C position cannot be over-stressed. You must allow the swing to occur naturally at the top hand (The first axis of rotation. Same way the monkey swings on the branches) from inverted-C to active-I
The key phrase here:To let the swing occur naturally at the top hand (The first axis of rotation. Same way the monkey swings on the branches) from inverted-C to active-I
ANY pulling or rowing action that occurs prior to this does NOT add energy to the vault (Why I will never be able to wrap my head around the M640 Model?), it Destroys it (Tells the pole to prematurely uncoil and the body to prematurely tuck) .... and Petrov know this.


3) THE TAP:
the tap (A swinging element in gymnastics used on the high bar or rings from a hollowed out position of the body (Inverse-C in PV) to take advantage of the stretch-reflex ability of the human body to add whip to the swing, like in a giant.) The tap begins out of inverse-C and connects to the active-I


4) THE BLOCK:
the bottom hand must continue to be fully straightened ( This is THE BLOCK of the vault!)
The block begins immediately after penetration in Inverse-C (When the bottom hand is over the head at 12 o'clock) and continues to just before the L-position.

5) BREAK IN THE HIPS:
The pelvic thrust, bend at the hips while pulling with both arms (top arm mostly), rock back, laying back of the shoulders into full inversion while pushing with the bottom arm, and the top arm push ALL ADD ADDITIONAL CRITICAL ENERGY INTO ONE INTEGRATED SYSTEM! Petrov and Bubka understand this better then most, and fully exploit it. There is another thing they understand that many vaulters and coaches do not. Most vaulters pull to early telling the pole to uncoil and there bodies to bend. They are trying to add energy to the swing through a smaller muscle group=the arms.[b] Bubka on the other hand adds energy to the whip through his largest muscle group=THE HIPS! This is a much more powerful and effective lever and the biggest reason he keeps the poll bent longer and is able to get on top of the pole (negative inversion) before it uncoils so well![/b]


And lastly the biggy!

6)TOP ARM ALWAYS STAYS WITH THE CHORD OF THE POLE! From Active-i through Inverted-I.
The vaulter is now in the L-position and beginning rock back to cover the pole. He has performed a strong top hand pull which has greatly assisted the propulsion of his hips upward and caused the pole to bend. He must maintain the bend in the pole by the backward lean and drive the lower body and legs toward the top hand (The axis of rotation has now changed from the hips to the shoulder joints). (Not drive the the top hand to the lower body like so many elite vaulters are incorrectly trained to do). If you drive the top hand to the lower body, the top arm will be driven out of its beyond vertical position and even less than vertical. THE POSITION OF THE BODY MIRRORS THE POSITION OF THE TOP ARM. The vaulters angle of inversion can only be as good as the angle of the top arm (It can go no further). This is the key to obtaining negative inversion. Bubka does not bring the top arm to the lower body, but lets the top arm stay in that backward leaned position, along the chord of the pole (The chord of the pole is the center of gravity of the pole/vaulter system) and instead brings the body to the top arm before he begins the bottom arm push. His superior flight path is Predetermined! Lastly I want to point out that because his bodies center of gravity is along the chord of the pole, he also achieves superior bend of the pole and therefore greater pole recoil. Another benefit of negative inversion!

The key to how Bubka is able to achieve negative inversion is how he dynamically Moves through the C-I-L positions, and how he brings the body to the top arm, that never leaves the chord of the pole.


.


PVDaddy, thanks for linking my video in a post above. Also, be a little careful about posting stuff as your own. This above quoted post is just about verbatim from my other pole vault tech model video uploaded on my YouTube channel...looks like you left out a word here or there, and misunderstood a concept, but it would not survive Turnitin.com. You seem to be fighting the good fight in most of your posts and it seems as though the thread starting post is your own, but try to credit your information a little better. In coaching, everybody borrows from everybody, but when writing and presenting, credit your source. I used a picture of Bubka in one of my videos without realizing it was copyrighted and had to make amends and credit the source, so it happens to all of us. Hope all is well. Take care.


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