AGENDA 21 (Final draft)

This is a forum to discuss advanced pole vaulting techniques. If you are in high school you should probably not be posting or replying to topics here, but do read and learn.
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Re: AGENDA 21 (Final draft)

Unread postby PVDaddy » Sat Feb 08, 2014 9:06 pm

Re: Shoulder Drop Technique

Specificity of training and getting the vaulter to understand what it is they are trying to achieve is the most efficient path to success. The truth is this process does not even involve dropping the shoulders and should NEVER be taught or thought of this way by the coaches or athlete! AS I have previously stated, what must be understood by the coaches and athletes is that the goal must be to learn HOW TO HAVE MAXIMUM ROTATION THROUGH THE SHOULDER JOINT!? :idea:

This can only occur correctly if the vaulter is committed to doing the following after going elastic while re-extending the plant upward.

1) A sold out commitment to a never ending whip swing to eternity throughout the entire second phase of the vault.

2) A sold out commitment to never lock out or freeze the shoulder joint by rowing throughout the entire second phase of the vault.

3) A sold out commitment to always maintain pressure top hand pressure and to never leave the chord with the top hand throughout the entire second phase of the vault.

4) From the chair position, if the vaulter is fully committed to thrusting his heels (Through the forceful extension (Straightening) of his legs) and hips (Through the uncoiling of the spine through the use of his entire back, abdomen and gluteus muscles) skyward while pulling against this thrust through the shoulders and its rotation through the shoulder rotator cuffs, this rotation will naturally occur.

This is what must be taught and understood. Once you understand what you are really trying to do, learning it becomes so much easier. After you learn it, then you begin to FEEL it. In fact you can then take it to a new level as you begin to associate the FEEL to the muscular function. Then you not only FEEL it but now you UNDERSTAND it! Now that you understand it you can now in fact CONTROL it! :idea:

So laying back the shoulders is not the goal but only the outcome of achieving shoulder rotation through the thrusting of the legs and hips and the straightening out of the spine. The visual cue of looking for the bottom hand does NOT achieve this process, but it DOES provide a target and goal for the vaulter to fully execute it, ensures proper head alignment with the spine, and a visual reference with the pole, for the vaulter to direct his body in relation to the crossbar.
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Re: AGENDA 21 (Final draft)

Unread postby AVC Coach » Sat Feb 08, 2014 10:58 pm

Or....the condensed version would be that the shoulders simply follow the hips.

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Re: AGENDA 21 (Final draft)

Unread postby PVDaddy » Sat Feb 08, 2014 11:04 pm

Think you might be missing a lot of important details in between that would make all the difference in the world.
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Re: AGENDA 21 (Final draft)

Unread postby AVC Coach » Sun Feb 09, 2014 8:11 pm

PVDaddy wrote:Think you might be missing a lot of important details in between that would make all the difference in the world.


"all the difference in the world"???? Really? Also, I've been reading your final final final draft and I haven't seen any mention of the significance of whether they are inhaling or exhaling at the plant. Do you feel this should be a concern for your vaulters? And if so, do you have them focus on this before they start their approach or just when they're dropping their pole. If not, why would this not be covered? Or is this something they should learn to feel?

What advice do you give them when they're down to their third attempt at a national qualifying mark or a bar that keeps them in the hunt for the win in a national championship or perhaps when they're taking cracks at a national record? These are some important pieces of advice that need to be included in your "Agenda 21" because there's no chance of reaching that goal without first going through these scenarios. Don't you agree?

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Re: AGENDA 21 (Final draft)

Unread postby PVDaddy » Mon Feb 10, 2014 12:01 am

Yes, If the only thing you were to tell your vaulters in you condensed version "the shoulders need to follow the hips" (I'm not sure if that's what you were implying with your comment and/or if you were suggesting I provide to much detail in my description or coaching? ) they would be at a serious disadvantage of not hearing and applying all of the factors that contribute to obtaining the most early, powerful and correctly positioned inversion and fly-away possible. Do you agree? However since you seem to be concerned with even the smallest of details (such as I am, read my signature.) such as how and when to breath and when to exhale or inhale perhaps you were not implying that at all?

You make a mockery of the fact that I had a rough draft and final draft while developing my method and If you were honest with yourself and everyone here I believe you would have to admit that your own personal method and understanding of the vault throughout the years has had numerous revisions and additions along the way. So why such hypocrisy? Do you agree?

I haven't seen any mention of the significance of whether they are inhaling or exhaling at the plant. Do you feel this should be a concern for your vaulters? And if so, do you have them focus on this before they start their approach or just when they're dropping their pole. If not, why would this not be covered? Or is this something they should learn to feel?


Are you suggesting I carry on with more detail in my agenda? You claim that you have read my full agenda? Do I advocate that any portion of the vault should should be learned through just feel? Feel is primarily an unconscious action. Feel is learned through practice, but it can be greatly accelerated provided you have helped the vaulter to create an detailed, accurate, CONSCIOUS understanding of the motion. Do you agree? To answer your question, yes I believe there is a most beneficial way and time to breath during the vault, but honestly I have not made a detailed study of it. Sounds like you have? Would you mind sharing your thoughts on this subject?

What advice do you give them when they're down to their third attempt at a national qualifying mark or a bar that keeps them in the hunt for the win in a national championship or perhaps when they're taking cracks at a national record? These are some important pieces of advice that need to be included in your "Agenda 21" because there's no chance of reaching that goal without first going through these scenarios. Don't you agree?


Yes I agree. I have some thoughts about this, but I do not have the experience that you have had, so I am your student. Would you please share with me and others some strategies you have employed with great success and others to avoid?
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Major points missed by many coaches

Unread postby PVDaddy » Thu Feb 13, 2014 2:13 pm

What Petrov, Butler, Werner, Clymer, and I have been trying to say and What Bubka, Walker and Lavillenie demonstrate in their vaults is that they are NOT performing a Lat Pull (As you call it) in their downswing after and coming out of elastic Penetration. In fact they are performing just the opposite! They are experiencing a" Lat Stretching" as they Re-Extend the Plant to extend the long lever of the body and to lower their COG. Just as the Gymnast Pushes away from the High bar during the downswing in the Giant. It is the upward push upward that add energy to the downswing and is critical for the downswing Tap! :idea:

The other points that many are failing to recognize and that are all critical to break the world record are:

1) The benefit of generating vertical energy coming out of the chair position from the top of the swing though the forceful straightening out of the spine and the extension of the legs and hips upward. I call that the Tap at the top of the swing.

2) The benefit of extending that swing all the way so the the hip makes contact close to the top arm elbow in a beyond vertical position.

3) The benefit of a very strong downward Push of the bottom hand toward the pit for additional vertical energy.

4) The benefit of a very strong top hand push as you leave the pole.
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Re: AGENDA 21 (Final draft)

Unread postby PVDaddy » Mon Feb 17, 2014 8:59 pm

As you know, I have as of late, been placing a great focus on the ability of generating enormous energy at the top of the swing by extending the heels, hips and spine from a counter thrust position when the feet are extended over the head. I have been calling this a TAP at the Top of the swing. I did NOT coin the term TAP from this position but took it from a Gymnastic site verbatim when when I posted this sentence (Notice the bolded portion):

So you see the tap is merely a way of generating energy into the swing from a arched or hollow position of the body (coil) whether swinging forward or backward and has evolved as a way to quickly accelerate the speed and power of the swing especially into release moves and dismounts! :idea:


So although I did not coin the word Tap, I believe I was the first to call it "The Tap at the top of the swing" in the pole vault. Werner and Clymer Illustrated the importance of the Pole Vault Tap at the bottom of the swing and called it such, I realised that Vaulters like Gymnast have the opportunity to employ a second Tapping motion at the top of the swing when going into dismount from the bar or pole, so like in Gymnastics, I chose to keep the same term. I was laughed at by many on here only because I brought in a new term? I was taken back by this reaction, because it was not the term to me that was important, but the all important emphasis that needs to be made on the action! Laugh if you like I suppose ;)

What former World record holder Bubka and New World Record holder Lavellenie BOTH have in common is a great Tap at the top of their vault! However, they both achieve it in different ways. Bubka achieves it by a long single legged swing that when met with the drive leg is extended to the sky all the way to the point his swing leg makes contact close to the top arm elbow. He is able to invert more fully and faster then Lavellenie because of better swing mechanics to this position and therefore is ALSO able to make use of shoulder rotation in his tapping Motion. Lavellinie Breaks at the hips immediately with the aim of getting his Knees up over his head as quick as possible, in almost a balled position, were he is able to forcefully extend (Frog Like lol) BOTH legs upward with the full range of motion of BOTH legs into his tap. He does not get the benefit of shoulder rotation however, he does get the benefit of being able to extend BOTH legs in their full range of motion. The other very important thing that both vaulters make full use of is a top hand leaning pull of both arms as the feet pass the pole while breaking at the hips that seamlessly blend to a very strong bottom hand push toward the box as the feet are shot into the air followed by a very stong top arm push as they leave the pole. Of course both of them did this with impeccable timing of the uncoiling of the pole in both vaults. Lavellenie has certainly made it clear that there is more then one way to skin the cat of the pole vault Tap at the top! Certainly has opened my eyes. But the question remains what method of the top tap is superior to the other? It could be argued that Lavellenies method is superior to Bubka"s because of the fact he is the shorter (Less plant angle) and/or possibly slower? But perhaps Lavellenie is just more explosive at the second phase? I believe this is the case. It is entirely possible if Lavellenie could jump higher if he was a pure Petrovian? Or perhaps not and the tuck and shoot suits him better? What is clear is that he has found a way to generate enormous power out of his Tap at the top! I believe that as many begin to realize and focus on this Tapping power potential at the top the bar will be moved up and 6.14 or better will be common in the near future! Let's just wait and see? :)
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Re: AGENDA 21 (Final draft)

Unread postby PVDaddy » Tue Feb 18, 2014 12:03 am

Kirk, honestly The last thing I am doing is trying to start a fight. I don't expect a response from you on this either. I just find it to be humerus and timely. I hope your not offended. I was just reading over post on my thread "Tap at the top of the swing" and read one of your comments were you were making fun of me:

Next weaq, I'll bee explaning my double-footed foot tap, cuz I got two thinqing, and y knot tap with both feat and get dubble the invers body qoil?


I guess I was a few weeks late? LOL (Not at you!) Its just that I ACTUALLY DID!

While we are on this subjegct, I do not believe this method is as good as Bubka's method and the last thing I hope is that this will encourage more tuck and shoot vaulting. Let's not forget that Bubka was clearly at least 30 cm over the bar in his famouse vault. If vaulters in coaches MUST go in the direction of tuck and shoot, I hope they at least take advantage of Lavellenies double leg foot tap as you pre-coined it BY ACCIDENT? " Double leg foot tap"sounds good to me!
Every jot and every tittle adds up to more than just a little.


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