AGENDA 21

This is a forum to discuss advanced pole vaulting techniques. If you are in high school you should probably not be posting or replying to topics here, but do read and learn.
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altius
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Re: AGENDA 21

Unread postby altius » Thu Jan 17, 2013 3:19 am

"In the next post I will further elaborate on the when and how to Push/Pull."

When you do this can you also clarify whether your ideas are the result of a purely theoretical analysis, or are derived from actually working with athletes who are doing what you intend to describe for us -including descriptions and rationale of the drill/drills you used to achieve your results? Just curious. :yes:
Its what you learn after you know it all that counts. John Wooden

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Re: AGENDA 21

Unread postby PVDaddy » Thu Jan 17, 2013 4:06 pm

Altius,

If you have some critique of the methods I have so far promoted in Agenda 21 please feel free to start? Right now I am working on the method and have not yet developed training techniques. If you think that my methods have some credence, I can think of no one more qualified to develope training methods than yourself! This was shown In your excellent video Beginner to Bubka!
I highly value your extensive hands on experience!
Every jot and every tittle adds up to more than just a little.

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Re: AGENDA 21

Unread postby tsorenson » Thu Jan 17, 2013 9:08 pm

I agree with most of what you are saying about the bottom arm, and I admire your desire to try to summarize and/or clarify elements of the Bubka/Petrov model. May I suggest that you read the following threads and watch Petrov's speech from Reno (link to video is at bottom of first post):
http://polevaultpower.com/forum/viewtop ... ch#p144658

http://polevaultpower.com/forum/viewtop ... 96#p141469

Something I have learned over the years is that it is often better not to fully elaborate (while coaching kids) on the bottom arm's role in the vault, but to simply focus on approach mechanics, swing, and the top arm's role. The bottom arm will do exactly what it needs to do to allow the athlete to swing over their grip if it is not overemphasized during the early learning stages of vaulting.
Cheers,
Tom

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Re: AGENDA 21

Unread postby PVDaddy » Sat Jan 19, 2013 7:51 pm

Tsorenson, Before you comment to me on a thread I started, may I suggest you take enough time to at least read the thread first?

You said, " May I suggest that you read the following threads and watch Petrov's speech from Reno (link to video is at bottom of first post):

I have already watched that speach (three times now) since you suggested it 3 years ago. Petrov"s Reno speach that you directed me to is first of all a "Link", not a " Post" and it is found on the "last " Post of that page not the first (your motives are so obvious it's laughable and shallow!). Furthermore, Petrov does not " once " refer to the use of the bottom arm after the whip in this speach but is only addressing proper 3 step pole plant and free take off???

My opening statement in my Agenda:

"This author believes that the first phase of the vault as described in the Petrov model describes the ideal pole carry, run up, plant, and take off. There can be no better take off than a free take off! The only additions to the Petrov model this author is making in this model are in regards to the off-the-ground phase of the vault."

I have made it Very clear in this Agenda That I am refering to the use of the bottom after the whip has been initiated.
What is your Agenda Tsorensen? What you are trying to initiate? I'd be pleased if I never talked to you again!
Every jot and every tittle adds up to more than just a little.

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Re: AGENDA 21

Unread postby altius » Sun Jan 20, 2013 3:12 am

Now now PVDADDY. You are beginning to sound a bit pompous. If you had followed pvp for any time you would know that Tom is one of the good guys -not a trouble maker - just a coach trying to sort out what folk mean when they post complicated ideas here. While I respect your desire to enlighten us on this topic - and hope you do so -you may find that there is a sting in the tail of this issue. But get to it -do not tantalise us any more!! :yes:
Its what you learn after you know it all that counts. John Wooden

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Re: AGENDA 21

Unread postby tsorenson » Sun Jan 20, 2013 1:40 pm

PV Daddy,
Wow, I am surprised at your wacko response. I assure you that I meant no disrespect, and was actually trying to agree with you. The bottom arm's action after the plant is very complicated. My post was written in haste, and I am glad that you had already watched Petrov's speech. Forgive me for not remembering that I had already suggested it to you 3 years ago. I admire you for swimming through old posts on this site; many people ignore this feature and simply start off by posting. That was my only "agenda" by referencing old "posts" which included the "link", which I accessed using the search feature. Had I known that you would be so offended I would have not commented on your new thread. You are obviously very passionate about the event, and also proper use of online message board nomenclature.

Before I gladly meet your request of no further conversation; think about this for your agenda 21: There may be an important reason that you don't hear a lot of talk about the bottom arm action after the plant from Petrov or Launder...because it's very difficult (if not impossible) to coach. As coaches we are better served by focusing on the things we can control; the bottom arm action is instinctive if you do gymnastic drills, stiff pole vaulting, and have a good enough approach/plant/swing to be in the right position on top of the pole on a regular basis. With an open mind, you may realize that coaching the vault is actually a lot simpler than it seems.

I now am remembering why I stopped posting on this forum a while back, and why you can't drag most of the good coaches on this site into a conversation (especially about the bottom arm). Good luck to you and your vaulters. Regardless of what you think of me, the sport needs people such as you with passion and a desire to share knowledge. You may find more coaches willing to comment on your threads if you don't attack them.

Alan,thank you for trying to defend me; what a turn of events! ;) I owe you a cold one.

Cheers,
Tom

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Re: AGENDA 21

Unread postby PVDaddy » Sun Jan 20, 2013 6:38 pm

The reference to the post required the reader and myself to go over two full pages of negativity (to find the link), that has kept me from posting on this site for three years. It had very little to do with the use of the bottom arm after the Whip. Even though I had some perhaps misgivings, or misunderstandings, about Altius and other Elite vauters motivation at the time, and may have responded inappropriately, I always tried to be open minded and learn what I could from them. I had to respect them for their years of experience and achievement. I know what it means to dedicate your life to a sport. I in fact swallowed my pride and purchased Altius Book and video and was glad I did! He actually seems like a very likable fellow. My son is now Vaulting in college and it has inspired me to come back to this site and learn more.

Most of what I have learned about pole vaulting, I have learned on this site, from others, who have so much more real world experience and knowledge, then myself! I understand that I am a Pole Vaulting Nobody. I do not say that to be self-deprecating. It's just the truth. I have not been the one in the pit, grinding it out day after day, year after year, like so many of you Elite (I say that with the out most respect!) and coaches have. Truthfully, I am not even worthy to be posting on this advanced site with you. I must admit that I am taking advantage of a very true piece of advice, I got from a very good friend, many years ago. He said; "that if you want to be the best, you must hang out with the best!" I am here to learn and hopefully have at least one thing, along the way, to give back?

The real credit always belongs to the man in the Pit. Trust me I fully understand this, and have, for 30 years now, in Wrestling,
been the man in the pit, sometime I feel to much, and sometime it feels more than I can bare, from unmotivated athletes or their unappreciative parents looking to place blame, for the failure of their children to perform. This very rarely comes from the motivated athletes who are performing, or from their parents, because they understand that their success depends mostly on themselves, and their desire to improve, inch by inch. They work so very hard, through their blood, sweat and tears and I have been their too, I understand how very hard it is, and it is only that athlete, that keeps me coaching to this very day. The following, quote, by President Theodore Roosevelt, titled , The Credit belongs to the man in the Arena, is perhaps my favorite of all time.

“It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; because there is not effort without error and shortcomings; but who does actually strive to do the deed; who knows the great enthusiasm, the great devotion, who spends himself in a worthy cause, who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement and who at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly. So that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat.”

It has been far to long, since anyone has pole vaulted like Bubka. I'm here to try to discover why that is? I will probably make mistakes along the way ,and probably have to make correction, and be open to correction. I will be. I hope their input is genuine, and not, an intentional distraction. In the end though, this Agenda will have to be my own. The one my Research, intellect, gut, and experience, tells me is correct. Take it for what it is, Just my collective opinion. Hopefully history will decide, I was on to something of value? If not, at least I failed while daring greatly.
Every jot and every tittle adds up to more than just a little.

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Re: AGENDA 21

Unread postby altius » Sun Jan 20, 2013 9:21 pm

Yes the Roosevelt quote is one that I have often used - specifically in my first book on the teaching of games. So powerful I repeated it in the second edition. Interesting that it was in a speech titled “Citizenship in a republic” given at the Paris Sorbonne on April 23rd 1910, not sure if he repeated it in the USA. I wonder how many PVP readers have seen it before – it seems to have had remarkably little impact on the philosophy of sports coaching in the USA.

However I do not believe that it is appropriate to use these great words in this context, for you are most definitely not in the kind of arena Roosevelt was describing, with it is evocation of physical effort and pain. If one comes to PVP with good intent and trusts the folk one finds here, you will be well received; however if you talk down to us or treat us as dumb bunnies who clearly have not considered the issues you feel need to be addressed, then you must expect a response. Because the issue you raise HAS been addressed in detail on pvp in the past.

However, as I suggested earlier, you are free to bring your intellect to bear on the issue and clarify it for us. Indeed the sooner the better. My only caution is that the vast majority of the working solutions to the problems we face on this planet are derived from what the Germans call “Praxis”. That is the interweaving of intellect and practical experience. Conversely when this does not occur, as when bio mechanists conduct analysis for the sake of analysis or offer purely theoretical solutions to the practical problems of sport, little progress is made. You will note that no scientists – at least to my knowledge – have attempted to address the issue in question!

Finally I suggest that the reason why no one has exceeded Bubka's performance has more to do with the collapse of the USSR and its sports system, along with a continual regression of the place of track and field in world sport, than it has to do with obtuse matters of technique.
Its what you learn after you know it all that counts. John Wooden

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Re: AGENDA 21

Unread postby grandevaulter » Sun Jan 20, 2013 11:09 pm

My own favorite quote is;" the most important six inches in the pole vault is between the ears". Bubka was wrapped tighter than any. That may have been his greatest advantage.

We can compare his plant angle and his last three steps to others and you say he had no advantage in those departments. Do you have data to substantiate that claim. I would like to see it.

On another note I see no reason to get sensitive or start name calling.








/

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Re: AGENDA 21

Unread postby PVDaddy » Sun Jan 20, 2013 11:59 pm

Altius said: "However I do not believe that it is appropriate to use these great words in this context, for you are most definitely not in the kind of arena Roosevelt was describing, with it is evocation of physical effort and pain.

I did not say that quote applied specifically to me, although I have been in a place of pure exhaustion while in the athletic arena, to the point my limbs would no longer function properly, while experiencing blackness closing in on me and seeing stars. But that was not my intent. I think that it applies to anyone who is giving their heart and soul to any endeavor, especially when in full view of the public. I am suggesting it could apply to you, me and anyone giving their heart and soul to perfecting their craft.

You have also said to me on more than one occasion especially when I have expressed my view with any degree of confidence:

" If one comes to PVP with good intent and trusts the folk one finds here, you will be well received; however if you talk down to us or treat us as dumb bunnies who clearly have not considered the issues you feel need to be addressed, then you must expect a response. Because the issue you raise HAS been addressed in detail on pvp in the past."

If my opinions make you feel like a dumb bunny, that is way beyond my control. Frankly it is completely ridiculous. I have been given by my creator to have equal and inalienably rights to my thoughts and opinions . It is so obvious, I will not even bother to defend this point. Of course if I am creating a method for pole vaulting, I am bound to state many issues that have already been raised here on PVP!? I am working on it diligently and will post it on here when I am finished! I hope that it does not offend anyone. I have wasted a lot of time with these distractions and probably would have completed it by now.

Tsorenson made a reference to some pages 3 years ago when we were having these petty useless arguments and they had no bearing on the subject matter at hand, but were only intended to aggravate quarrels and provide distraction. I called him out on it, plain and simple and will call out anyone on here regardless of their assumed status, if they are intentionally being rude and mean.

Back to Agenda 21. More to follow.
Every jot and every tittle adds up to more than just a little.

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Re: AGENDA 21

Unread postby altius » Mon Jan 21, 2013 1:07 am

Loosen up old son! Calvin and Hobbes have the most fun when they are arguing -why can't we? :rose:
Its what you learn after you know it all that counts. John Wooden

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Re: AGENDA 21

Unread postby pv161 » Mon Jan 21, 2013 2:19 am

PVDaddy, I obviously don't know you but Tom is a friend of mine.
I read his post several times and can't see anything that deserved your response. Even in Tom's response to your rude post he took the high road and still praised you for your passion for our sport.
If you want to be taken seriously on here check your anger at the door.
An apology is in order


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