Settling 6 Step Mid Convo

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PVstorm84
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Settling 6 Step Mid Convo

Unread postby PVstorm84 » Sun Feb 12, 2012 4:54 pm

Hi.

I recently watched all of the videos from the rumble in the tundra in Donetsk (Otto, Walker, Lav, LZB), and noticed that all of their mids were virtually the same (+/- 4" by my video analysis) watching the tape marks on the sides of the runway at 6 steps from the box, and given that the videographer had to be in the same place throughout the whole comp (at bubka's meets, once you're seated you mustn't stand or move around).

Please watch:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1iUkXSE73W0&list=UUkHAqg9SY7G8Mnlc5Hf_fvw&index=4&feature=plcp
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ocZVnUZiLM&list=UUkHAqg9SY7G8Mnlc5Hf_fvw&index=3&feature=plcp
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1oGwMXGYVI&list=UUkHAqg9SY7G8Mnlc5Hf_fvw&index=2&feature=plcp
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RvA2rRkSHc&list=UUkHAqg9SY7G8Mnlc5Hf_fvw&index=7&feature=plcp

note the small colored tape marks on the side of the runway at 6 steps away.

Also please note that all athletes are gripping between 5m and 5.10m on 5m-5.20m poles, so grip height is pretty consistent, and also, all are capable of 5.80m-6m vaults on a given day, so bar height is consistent as well. I would assume, using my visual estimation of 120fps video, all vaulters in these 4 videos are running between 9.29-9.61m/s from 10-5m from the box.

Thank you.

Storm
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Re: Settling 6 Step Mid Convo

Unread postby wtfisup » Sun Feb 12, 2012 5:17 pm

I think we must first determine the brand of visual recording device used by ChappellVideos. We here in the PVP community appreicate you're thoughtful input Storm but lets push out all of the varibles here before throwing around that m\s word. You trying to flex 5.20 poles on me? Don't be silly, get jiggy with it.
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Re: Settling 6 Step Mid Convo

Unread postby master » Mon Feb 13, 2012 2:17 am

Maybe I'm missing something but it appears to me there is quite a significant difference between mids. Walker's is furthest out, with Borges then Lavillenie being almost the same, and Otto being closest to the pit. It seems about 5 feet difference between Walker and Otto.
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Re: Settling 6 Step Mid Convo

Unread postby dj » Mon Feb 13, 2012 8:22 am

"MID" -controversy

Good morning,

I compared Borges and Lavillenie yesterday… and will do the others today…

First there shouldn't be a "controversy"… and contrary to belief the chart was science, math, and not "Imperical " data.

I don't want to put to much on this thread because I will continue to "explain" in the thread below that is already going…

But please try and understand the chart is as simple as comparing proportions.. 14 to 16..13-5 to 14-7… 45 to 49… which I did in 1971-72…

14…13-5…45 add 7.3mps to this group as one group.. 16…14-7…49..+8.1mps to this group

Insert 15 in for 14 or 16 and what do you get for the other numbers???? Insert 19 or 20 in for 14 or 16//what do you get?


BUTT that said the "key" is how to use the science to our benefit to coach our athletes and have them take advantage of this "tool" by running Approach runs on the track to develop the skills, speed and consistency with the "numbers" that closely "fit" your level of vaulting……. so we all become better.

I can visually see the differences… and from experience and logic, what effect I think the differences should make… knowing the speed would help… I know from the science.. stride length and frequency that a 55 "MID" goes with 9.3mps or you are stretching or chopping… a 58 "MID" has to have 9.9mps or you are definitely stretching..

Anyway.. there is a 3 or 4 jump series of Borges, on youtube.. that the camera is at the same place.. just comparing those three jumps, "mids" in three different places.. can tell you a lot.. of course we don't know the speed or if he changed poles between jumps.. but whither he did or didn't.. on of those three had the best "MID".. the other two were very definitely effected by the "MID"..

More on the other thread .. when I get some time.. full week

dj

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Re: Settling 6 Step Mid Convo

Unread postby dj » Tue Mar 20, 2012 9:10 am

good morning,

to those vaulters that aspire to be all that they can be.....

outdoors is here and the push to the 2012 Olympic Games actually started for this years hopefulls over four years ago.........

i'm looking forward to the results in june/july and in London of course...
......................................................................................................


PVP…. Approach Run "MID"
March 20-2012

Napoleon Hill…. "The imagination, when under control, may be used for the creation of plans or purposes that lead to success in one's chosen occupation."


A "point" in the Long Jump or Pole Vault six steps from the takeoff/plant, is something I "borrowed" over 40 years ago from the Russian's published, translated science on Igor Ter Vanesian during the 60's and from a four time collegiate All-American and America's number one high school long jumper.

Just as other coaches before me created or used various "tools ", monitors in their coaching I used my "imagination" to created a coaches tool, an "asset" that I could use to monitor the approach run and keep the athlete accurate and fast.

dj

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Re: Settling 6 Step Mid Convo

Unread postby dj » Tue May 01, 2012 9:22 am

Some recent questions and answers..........

Q. I'm trying to integrate correct run technique with approach runs on the track and then move those runs to the runway. My athletes are "getting"/transferring speed/acceleration techniques reasonably well with the pole and on the track while running 30 and 40 meter accelerations with the pole in the correct carry position.

How can I use your "MID" Chart to improve our approach runs and can you please help me incorporate that into our system?

First:

what level, heights are your jumpers jumping and how many steps is their full run? 12 strides/6 lefts... 14/7 lefts etc...

all 9th grade/14 year old girls should, potentially, have the "ability" to run 4'6" strides WITH a pole and without stretching, 9th grade boys 5 foot strides....

lanes on the track... 12 step run...

lane 1... 6 strides 4'6" apart.. like this

start........6 steps/3 lefts...L.....R.....L.....R.....L.....R.....L.........BOX/Towel

lane 2... 6 strides 4'8" apart.. ... potential 10 foot grip and 9 foot jump height
lane 3... 6 strides 4'10" apart..
lane 4... 6 strides 5'0" apart..
lane 5... 6 strides 5'2" apart.. ...potential 12 foot grip and 11-6 jump height


this is how you transition to the runway... find the best run with each athlete.. best posture, pole drop and plant, rhythm and move that run MINUS one "MID" distance, ie if 5'2 is their best start with 5 foot stride lengths on the runway...

if you have jumpers jumping higher than 11-6 and running 14, 16,18 steps you set the lanes up accordingly....

be in touch

dj

http://www.oneapproachrun.com

the "MID" to grip to jump height is the most important numbers on the chart to focus on.. the other numbers are "confirmation" data relating to the "physics of speed and correct technique..

"Form Follows Function"


……………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………


Q. What were some off the Six Step "MID" numbers/Data for successful vaulter.

Answer:
Tim Mack had 54-8 six step "MID" and a 13-8 take off on the 5.90 2004 trials jump that he was highly efficient on.. The McGinnis' data showed 9.23mps from 15 to 10 meters and 9.30mps from 10 to 5 meters. He had the height on this jump to jump well over 6 meters. His next two jumps at 6.04 were at the same speed. He last jump at 6.04m was 9.30mps and 9.38mps… even though he was running as well or faster he had changed to a pole that was too stiff and couldn't get the pole speed needed to finish the jumps. For me that was a very good example when a vaulter should or shouldn't change poles and if they do it needs to be a pole "made" (pattern) the same but with just a fraction of more flex… I think tht is what he got and took with him to Athens….

…. . doing the math of Tim's jump each of the last 6 steps would be 6-10/2.07m……..The FOUR step "MID" would have been at approximately 41-4…. he still stretched slightly..and I think his steps were already too long at the "MID"…

That, I think, could have been solved by going back to 20 steps and having a "tighter" faster approach "to" the "MID" .. He was running from approximately 137-8.. that means 83 feet/25.30m covered in the first 12 steps….just a "note"…Bolt only covered 21.68m to the 12th step in his 9.58sec 100m world record…. His last two steps, 11 and 12 were 2.17/7'1" and 2.21/7'3"… I will give you Tim's later………

Back to PV and steps… Bubka hit around 17.30m on the jumps I saw him take.. Mcginnis' data has Bubka jumping 6m with the last 2 steps of : next to last 2.10 and last of 2.04.. running 9.5MPS… that projects to a six step "MID" of approximately 55ft/16.85M???

Tully, Bell, Joe Dial, Duplantis, Fraley, Tarpening, Huffman etc.. all were in the 54 to 56 foot range…

Lo was one of the first I saw hitting 57-58.. he stretched under a lot….. when he was "tight" 56ish he was potentially the best in the world…. And had a good run at his Medal-Sidney-2000 games jump..

Tully trained with 6-6, 6-8, 6-10 and 7ft strides by doing approach runs on the track with the last six steps marked with chalk.. I timed and filmed many of those.. I timed from the start to the MID and MID, left foot to left foot to takeoff.. prior to the trials he ran the 7 foot lengths without stretching and in 9.5MPS…..

I feel every male vaulter that wants to be world-class and an Olympian, should do most of their "speed" work with three lanes on the track.. 18 and 20 step approaches 6-8, 6-10, 7 feet.. that covers 54/16.5m to 56-6/17.30…… by doing this the approach will become "automatic", fast, accurate AND there will be NO issues moving from short run to long run..

My chart shows what the world-class women should be running.. the times I check Isi, when she was close to my averages she jumped well.. when she was "out" she had problems…

I make the approach run "effort" based.., for both the long jump and pole vault….I know a male world class sprinter/long jumper will "accelerate" 30 meters in the first 16 steps.. he needs 14 meters for the last 6 steps.. so his approach run of 22 steps is going to start approximately 44 meters from the board….

if you run with 90% effort, which actually means your stride will be slightly longer than 100%.. (I know that’s confusing but it is true.. and has made it hard on us coaches to figure out) you will know where you need to start and how hard to push… this makes you more consistent than trying to control the posture etc.. the correct posture, pole drop and rhythm comes from the acceleration effort.

My long jump and pole vault charts are both from six steps… 3 lefts..

PV Start……………………………………L……R……L……R……L……R……L……..BOX

LJ Start……………………………………L……R……L……R……L……R……L…SAND…


The only thing I think I do different with the run is "practice" the start to the "MID", 12 or 14 strides for men, time it and check the distance… get the best speed compared the the average distance.. then I use my chart to set up a "MID".(because I have already done the research for the accuracy). I put the two together for a 18 and 20 step fast consistent approach.

I move this to the runway.....




Q. How should I start my run so the stride lengths, rhythm and pole drop will fall into place allowing me to "JUMP" up at takeoff?



I am trying to say and explain two things… one/first the "acceleration" from the first step should be no different than the start and run of a "standing" 40 yard dash, except your carrying a pole AND each vaulter has to determine (practice) how much speed they can handle.. the objective is as fast as you can physically run and have control.. AND the more you practice a full 18-20 step run full speed on the track the faster you can run 90/95% on the runway!

Second I am saying that our six steps "MIDS" are too far out taking away (hips out of position and "feel" is wrong because the athlete has practiced with a "stretched run" and correct/fast "feels' wrong) our ability to correctly run the last six steps, plant and takeoff "OUT", strong, aggressive and correct.

I know I am really writing too much… butt.. bottom line is.. the numbers/data we need to focus on is Bubka's last two steps and how he got there.

I am encouraging a more "natural" acceleration from the start "TO" the "MID"… instead of a "patterned", high knee, long stride or "galloped" type run, which is what I have been seeing now for many years…(except when the bar goes up to record heights… ie.. Tim Mack 2000 and 2004.. except he was ready in 2004 and had made the adjustment) and the athlete "blows up" under pressure because they run fast and natural at record heights or championship meets, get their steps "OUT" at the "MID" and cannot get a correct takeoff.. stretching, slowing and making the pole and grip they have chosen to big and dangerous to use… that is why we are having 57, 58 and higher "MIDS" that seem to work "to a point" (actually longer strides with slower frequencies, killing the athletes ability to "speed up" or increase the frequency which in turn kills the possibility to "impulse"/jump at the takeoff..) a piece of scientific data that confirms/describes this in scientific terms is in McGinnis studies.

nnn………………………………………………………………………………………
Bubka.. 5.85 jump (6.12 max height COM)’87 the max height COM was @105cm past vertical..
Pole…5.10/5.20 pacer…grip…5.10m.. Flex…?…Standards…?cm
Length last two steps………………..pen..2.10m...last…2.04cm
Speed last two steps…………………pen..9.46m/s..last..9.54m/s
pole angle at plant…………………………………....28.6 degrees
Vertical extension of plant arm at plant…………...99.4%
takeoff toe in relation to grip…………………….. 10cm/3.9" under..

……….numbers at takeoff.. toe leaving the runway….
Horizontal Velocity of CG……………………………8.04 m/s
Vertical Velocity of CG……………………………....2.37 m/s
Resultant Velocity of CG……………………………..8.38 m/s
Takeoff angle…………………………………………16.4degrees
Pole bend %…………………………………….…….1.6%
Takeoff toe in relation to top grip……………...……. 2cm/
Pole angle just as toe leaves the runway………….…..29.6 degrees
Impluse.. duration of takeoff foot contact………….0.12sec
Maximum bend………………………………….........27.1%
Minimum effective pole length……………………..3.73m/12’2.7”
Angle of pole cord to vertical at maximum bend…..61.7degrees
Time of max bend after Takeoff……………………..0.49sec
Total time of jump……………………………………1.55sec
…………………………………………………………………………………………..
......................................................................................................

Tully.. 5.70 jump (5.88 max height COM)TAC 87.. the max height COM was @115cm past vertical
Pole…5.00 pacer…grip 4.97m.. Flex…?…Standards…?cm
Length last two steps………………..pen..2.21m...last…2.08cm
Speed last two steps…………………pen..9.47m/s..last..9.59m/s
pole angle at plant………………………………....30.3 degrees
Vertical extension of plant arm at plant…………...96.5%
takeoff toe in relation to grip…………………….. 6cm/2.4" under..

…………numbers at takeoff.. toe leaving the runway….
Horizontal Velocity of CG……………………………7.63 m/s
Vertical Velocity of CG……………………………....2.62 m/s
Resultant Velocity of CG……………………………..8.07 m/s
Takeoff angle…………………………………………18.9degrees
Pole bend %…………………………………….…….0.7%
Takeoff toe in relation to top grip……………...……. 1cm/
Pole angle just as toe leaves the runway………….…..31.2 degrees
Impluse.. duration of takeoff foot contact………….0.12sec
Maximum bend…………………………………….…27.4%
Minimum effective pole length…………………3.59m/11’9.4”
Angle of pole cord to vertical at maximum bend…66degrees
Time of max bend after Takeoff……………………...53sec
Total time of jump……………………………………1.58sec
………………………………………………………………………………………

We need to look at these numbers and pull out three numbers… horizontal velocity… vertical velocity and resultant velocity. Mc Ginnis can tell you better than me that resultant velocity based on a "formula"(which I don't know) that is a product of stride lengths and stride frequencies… and by studying the data, as I have tried to do since 1974, you will find that Bubkas' resultant veloscity is very high AND that it is ALWAYS correlates with shorter (compared to Tully for example.. who I know ever on some of his best jumps was over striding) strides with high velocity

For example even T-Mack's stride lengths were LONG to the "MID"… with a start point of 137-8 and a "MID" of 54-8= 83 feet for 12 steps would indicate from my "Bolt" acceleration stride length data that Tim's last couple of strides before the "MID" were close/over eight (8) feet!!!!!!!!! It is very, very difficult to cut your strides to under seven (7) feet to get the hips underneath the body enough to have much of an "impulse"/jump… very difficult because the mass is already low and hips are out of position instead of getting in position…. Tim trained with and used percentages of stride lengths that were created very similar to my "speed chart"… BUTT the percentages he used were designed to get the stride "opened/long very quickly made his strides get very long very quickly out of the back of his approach run…

My acceleration speed chart is based on the actually average stride length increase based on speed of 100's of world class sprinters over a 20 year time period and my own physical study of 100's of athletes, football, track, baseball etc.. men and women..

So again the start from first step to the "MID" is based on effort and speed.. my chart has the "physic" percentages of increase from step to step up to 23 steps.. with or without a pole…

What is interesting about the research that I did and have done over 30 plus years is it started with the 110 hurdles where I realized that if you line a hurdler up at the start with the correct foot forward, when they finally get the steps to the first hurdle EACH step is exactly the same as all the other hurdlers.. same first, second and through 8 to the first hurdle.. so athletes that run the same speed, fast or slow will have stride lengths that are the same.


dj
http://www.oneapproachrun.com


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