6.40 Model?

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altius
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Re: 6.40 Model?

Unread postby altius » Sun May 15, 2011 11:21 pm

Appreciate the kind thought 3po. Now convince your sports scientists that BTB2 would be a useful resource in their library!
Its what you learn after you know it all that counts. John Wooden

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Re: 6.40 Model?

Unread postby vault3rb0y » Tue May 17, 2011 12:29 pm

We actually used Peter Mcginnis' Biomechanics of Sport book for my biomechanics class. In my opinion there should absolutely be a "biomechanics of pole vault" class here as well for upper-level studies! Problem is, theres no one at my school qualified enough to teach it! (move here....)
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Re: 6.40 Model?

Unread postby altius » Tue May 17, 2011 8:00 pm

Offer to teach one yourself!!!!
Its what you learn after you know it all that counts. John Wooden

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Re: 6.40 Model?

Unread postby agapit » Wed May 18, 2011 7:28 am

KYLE ELLIS wrote:You can't say Bubka used this model, just like I can't say that he didn't. If anyone knows him I would like for them to ask him if he tried pulling down with his bottom arm right after takeoff.


Kyle I know it is not very intuitive but rather more scientific inquiery that is necessary to "get" this concept that in fact vaulters on the stiff poles pulled with left to accelerate their swing and that on the flexible pole one should do the same. I am speaking of this because I certainly used it myself and taught it to every athlete I worked with maybe (20-30 athletes) and unless you think I'm an absolute cook you should just try to understand what I'm trying to say. Besides no serious scientist yet argued against this claim and i put it there for over a decade now.

Bubka probably never heard of 640 model, because I did not call it that until after he was making rules at IOC and IAAF not vaulting. As far as pull with the left arm, if you ask stiff vaulters whether they did it or not they won't tell you but that does not mean that they did not do it, as you clearly can see it in the old videos and from pure mechanical analysis.

I asked you to analyze Warmerdam's video and extrapolate this on the flexible pole. Have you had any success?
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Re: 6.40 Model?

Unread postby KYLE ELLIS » Wed May 18, 2011 11:49 am

agapit wrote:
KYLE ELLIS wrote:You can't say Bubka used this model, just like I can't say that he didn't. If anyone knows him I would like for them to ask him if he tried pulling down with his bottom arm right after takeoff.


Kyle I know it is not very intuitive but rather more scientific inquiery that is necessary to "get" this concept that in fact vaulters on the stiff poles pulled with left to accelerate their swing and that on the flexible pole one should do the same. I am speaking of this because I certainly used it myself and taught it to every athlete I worked with maybe (20-30 athletes) and unless you think I'm an absolute cook you should just try to understand what I'm trying to say. Besides no serious scientist yet argued against this claim and i put it there for over a decade now.

Bubka probably never heard of 640 model, because I did not call it that until after he was making rules at IOC and IAAF not vaulting. As far as pull with the left arm, if you ask stiff vaulters whether they did it or not they won't tell you but that does not mean that they did not do it, as you clearly can see it in the old videos and from pure mechanical analysis.

I asked you to analyze Warmerdam's video and extrapolate this on the flexible pole. Have you had any success?


Obviously I can't argue any points you make on here because I am not a scientist, and I have no way of testing these theories. I did commit to trying the 6.40 model for an entire year with terrible results, once I switched to the Petrov teachings I instantly started having success. I also coach at a college and for a while had everyone try pulling with similar negative results. So the only thing I have to go off of is experimentation, logic, instincts, and what I can see (I have been watching film of vaulters for 22 years now). You also can not prove that stiff polers back in the day pulled instantly with their left, but I agree that both in straight poling and on a bending pole a pull with the bottom arm has to happen; it’s the timing that everyone is arguing about.
Yes I studied Warmerdam’s vault and I see a pull, just not an instant pull. I believe if you talk to old time straight polers they will tell you initially they felt all the pressure staying in their top arm. Personally I like to look at Bob Gutowski’s vault http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GjeXZJpTGLQ So I ask you do you see an instant pull in his vault?
Here is my argument about the pull, to get the hips to rise as fast as possible and to swing the centroidal axis as far away from the axis of rotation, pulling initially is not the most effective way to do this. The most effective way to do this is to push the hands away from the shoulders once maximal distance is created the hips should be slightly under the vaulters head and to continue the rise of the hips there has to be an intuitive pull to keep the hips rising. This pull continues until the release of the pole. At the same time you should drive your hips forward to prevent the trail leg from swinging to far ahead of the hips (ending in a v-position), much like doing a candle stick.
In writing all of this I am curios to your pull-push phase as you call it because everyone talks about the pull but not about the push. If you are talking of an instantaneous pull that occurs as the pole is hitting the back of the box followed by a push, then I apologies because we are talking about the same thing. If so we should rename it “intuitive pull- push- pull phase. But my impression is that you are speaking of a continuous pull right as the pole strikes the box that continues until releasing the pole. So if this is what you speak of then what does the push part mean??
Also your example of having someone pull your arm as they pull the opposite direction is a good one except I bet that they start with their arm straight right? What if you have a really strong person that starts with a bent arm similar to that at takeoff? You won’t be able to pull their arm straight, I have never tried it, just imagining.
Roman I believe you are very smart man, I even sent you unanswered messages over the years asking if I could come work with you to show me the 6.40 model. I quit replying to you because I knew you were going to tear me apart because nothing I say is going to make a difference to you and you probably would just take it as disrespect. I quoted Petrov’s article and you ripped that thinking those were things that I was saying. Like I said I had believed that you are playing on words and giving us the answers while at the same time letting them be interpreted wrong. Every single person that sarts vaulting pulls and hugs themselves to the pole, and I am sure every single person who tries pulling will not experience success!
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Re: 6.40 Model?

Unread postby KYLE ELLIS » Wed May 18, 2011 12:10 pm

I bring this video in as evidence, any pole vaulter on this board can watch this video and see exactly where the pull begins. You can see him move his bottom arm away, stay long, and keep tension on the pole until his hips are about 6-8 inches underneath his head (almost so that his left arm and left leg are pointing in the same direction). It is then easy to see the pull because it is a whole body violent action where he starts moving up the pole faster than the recoil like you talk about. And you can also see that as soon as he starts pulling he breaks at the hips break a bit and there almost an isometric contraction (like the example you gave of somone pulling on your arm). You can see right as his bottom arm is almost completely straight and the pole has almost reached full bend he starts viloently pulling, and since the pole hasn't quite reached max bend it continues to bend as he pulls towards himself.

Now I ask since you can visually see where he pulls and buckling forces occur and and isometric contraction occurs, what would be the point of this right after takeoff. The buckling forces and isometric contraction will only last a split second. His COG doesn't move ahead of the pole until after that moment, so why should he try to do that earlier in the vault when his hips aren't in the correct position?

The video- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXIvyJbIl5o

Now I will admit that this pull happens earlier and earlier through out his career and I can see it being completely intuitive, but I just can see it happening right after takeoff.

The second video I want everyone to look at is this one at 1:35 http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... QeTq1X76TM
I point out this video because the pull happens so late in the vault. And again I think it is intuitive because he felt he wasn't penetrating so he stayed long a bit too long in order to make it to the bar. I think this- because I think you can rotate big poles by pushing your hands away from the pole, I think this is the most effective way to swing and rotate a high of a grip as possible.
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Re: 6.40 Model?

Unread postby agapit » Wed May 18, 2011 5:03 pm

KYLE ELLIS wrote: Every single person that sarts vaulting pulls and hugs themselves to the pole, and I am sure every single person who tries pulling will not experience success!
insticts


Kyle how about American Record Holder? Would you concider this a sucess? I am telling you that I have done this with all vaulters, I coached and LoJo is much closer then Bubka, he is coaching at USC in Colombia. Wright him a letter or better yet attend one of his clinics :)

Anyway thank you for giving this a try. I have to move on :)
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Re: 6.40 Model?

Unread postby KYLE ELLIS » Wed May 18, 2011 8:56 pm

I am open mided, I would like to come work with someone who is an expert on the 6.40 model!
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Re: 6.40 Model?

Unread postby ADTF Academy » Thu May 19, 2011 11:09 am

Wasn't LOJO's Outdoor American Record at the time was from College when he wasn't working with you yet? He did go on to set the Indoor American record and have some great accolades, but he never jumped as high as he did in College. He actually retired young not saying that was or wasn't anyone's fault. I don't know the specifics just the data at hand.



Who else has learned your model and jumped over 5.80? 5.70? 5.60? 5.50? I'm not saying a guy who was jumping 5.50 and jumped 5.50 under your model thus success. I'm saying a 5.20 guy who than went 5.50 when he learned and executed the model.

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Re: 6.40 Model?

Unread postby agapit » Fri May 20, 2011 3:55 pm

ADTF Academy wrote:Wasn't LOJO's Outdoor American Record at the time was from College when he wasn't working with you yet? He did go on to set the Indoor American record and have some great accolades, but he never jumped as high as he did in College. He actually retired young not saying that was or wasn't anyone's fault. I don't know the specifics just the data at hand.

Who else has learned your model and jumped over 5.80? 5.70? 5.60? 5.50? I'm not saying a guy who was jumping 5.50 and jumped 5.50 under your model thus success. I'm saying a 5.20 guy who than went 5.50 when he learned and executed the model.


ADTF Academy

I don’t know who you are and how many 19’+ vaulters did you coach, but you are right LoJo came out of high school 5.35m and jumped 5.80m his second year, I believe. I vividly remember watching his 5.80m video with Petrov in Reno 1993 or 1994, where his pole began to bend before his left foot touched the ground (you can find the video online). Petrov’s comment was simply – amazing strength, but dangerous, unstable and not good for long carrier. Petrov recommended personally to LoJo to focus on vault only and stop training for decathlon. I remember coach Webb got ticked off at Petrov (and me since I have translated this) for saying that to LoJo.

LoJo, officially coached by Jim Bemiller, vaulted 5.98m - NCAA and American outdoor record in 1996 at a home meet at UT in his senior year. I think he won Olympic Trials 5.80m and vaulted in Atlanta Olympic Games 5.70m.

I have coached 640 method together with Alan Launder to a group of athletes in Australia 1991-1992 at the time 18 year old 5.10m qualified for Junior World Championship and also a group of vaulters who at the time vaulted 5.20-5.30 and went 5.50-5.70 later in their carrier.

I couched several All-American at small private NAIA school, Missouri Valley College, that with limited talent went 5.00-5.20m. A few guys at Central Missouri State NCAA II with 11.6’ in a 100m & 18’6” long jump vaulted 5.10m – all American.
I coached several high school Tennessee State champions as well as Tennessee high school record holder (Jeff Trembley), who later became a coach and himself coached a Tennessee high school record holder.

LoJo – 5.96m Indoor American Record at the National Championship (in pressurized dome in Atlanta as opposed to high altitude or tailwind, if you know the difference, and 3 interesting attempts at that same National Championship at 6.15m, a video is circulating out there). Silver World Indoor 1997 (first American Medal since 1984 in a major competitions, I believe), Gold Medal at World Indoor 2001, Silver Medal at 2000 Sydney Olympics, 6 US National Championships (in a row, when we were working together) and all that during extensive technical rebuilding, which we plan ahead would take 3 years, but were interrupted in 1998-1999. I did not coach him these two years). So my work with LoJo was limited to Aug 1996 – Sep 1997; Dec 1999 – June 2001, January 2004 – June 2004. Indeed when he won his last 2001 National Championship in Oregon he attempted 6.05m in a questionable weather conditions and fractured his leg and could not go to World Championship 2001.
Instead of LoJo, Russ Buller, who got 4th place went with the team. Russ and Jimbo (Jim Davis) were training with me for several months at the time. Jimbo ended up vaulting 5.75m at 2004 Olympic Trials. I could say that I perhaps influenced both of these guys, but should not take the credit for their performance or lack of it.

Let me also say that from 1997 – 2004 LoJo and I were training at the same pit as 2004 Olympic Champion Tim Mack, officially coached by Jim Bemiller. By no means am I posing to take credit for Mack’s performance, but ideas, methods and visuals were exchanged as you would imagine they naturally would over period of several years.
Yes I was not in the position to recruit top athletes to a university or have a private facility to work with post collegians as some coaches conventionally do. I had to make a living  Now however, I am beginning a process to organizing training structure that could allow us to continue coaching and further developing 640 model, hopefully building on GREAT Tennessee (Knoxville) pole vault tradition.

I am not claiming anywhere that I am the greatest coach with the most 5.80m vaulters ever. Perhaps this title would belong to Jury Volkov (who I trained with and assisted for several years). The question is not whether I have coached a world record, the question is how we can do it. Perhaps to your standards I may not qualify to be an authority on the subject, but I can tell you that LoJo will sign under every statement of 640 model that I have presented here, including left arm pull, and we both wish we had less interruptions and more time to develop it to the full fruition.

What do you suggest vaulters do after they leave the ground?
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Re: 6.40 Model?

Unread postby dj » Sat May 21, 2011 12:43 am

Pleassssse….

Tim, Bemiller and Webb "borrowed" everything from Petrov/Bubka they could get .. the most you may have done was try and get the vault coaches "fired" at Tennesse so you could take their job.

I remember coach Webb got ticked off at Petrov (and me since I have translated this) for saying that to LoJo.

And as far as the situation in Reno.. with Lawrence… that "hinged" on a NCAA violation from one NCAA school to another of "tinkering.. I thought you might have been smart enough or experienced enough to know that.. but what I think was, you didn't care.. and your statement about Webb here…….. shows you had rather try and discredit someone else, to turn the credit to yourself, rather than to earn the credit on its own merit.

Webb and Bemiller had done pretty well way before you or Petrov.. They were there to see if they were "missing something". And I don't believe you had the common curtsey to speak to Webb "before" you ran your mouth off to Lawrence…

I will say this…. The two athletes that I worked with that you had coached could not jump correctly because you had not "fixed" the problems. You continued to "blame the athlete" …but couldn't fix it. They were jumping way below their potential and were constantly at the "frustration" level…. of even quitting the event… or injured.

any technique (model) that is "correct to physics" can be taught. if not, the coach doesn't know what they are doing and/or their "thinking" is flawed according to that physics.

It's the athlete, the communication from the coach and what is done correctly (to physics) that makes the difference………. Period..

RUN…………PLANT……………..SWING

Run correct… plant correct and swing correct (fast)…


dj

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Re: 6.40 Model?

Unread postby vaultman18 » Sat May 21, 2011 4:13 am

dj wrote:Pleassssse….

Tim, Bemiller and Webb "borrowed" everything from Petrov/Bubka they could get .. the most you may have done was try and get the vault coaches "fired" at Tennesse so you could take their job.

I remember coach Webb got ticked off at Petrov (and me since I have translated this) for saying that to LoJo.

And as far as the situation in Reno.. with Lawrence… that "hinged" on a NCAA violation from one NCAA school to another of "tinkering.. I thought you might have been smart enough or experienced enough to know that.. but what I think was, you didn't care.. and your statement about Webb here…….. shows you had rather try and discredit someone else, to turn the credit to yourself, rather than to earn the credit on its own merit.

Webb and Bemiller had done pretty well way before you or Petrov.. They were there to see if they were "missing something". And I don't believe you had the common curtsey to speak to Webb "before" you ran your mouth off to Lawrence…

I will say this…. The two athletes that I worked with that you had coached could not jump correctly because you had not "fixed" the problems. You continued to "blame the athlete" …but couldn't fix it. They were jumping way below their potential and were constantly at the "frustration" level…. of even quitting the event… or injured.

any technique (model) that is "correct to physics" can be taught. if not, the coach doesn't know what they are doing and/or their "thinking" is flawed according to that physics.

It's the athlete, the communication from the coach and what is done correctly (to physics) that makes the difference………. Period..

RUN…………PLANT……………..SWING

Run correct… plant correct and swing correct (fast)…


dj


You're an idiot.


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