takeoff angle and beyond

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KirkB
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Re: takeoff angle and beyond

Unread postby KirkB » Wed Mar 24, 2010 10:35 pm

vault3rb0y wrote: ... in my opinion this is where the bottom arm came in for Isakkson. Because he has not jumped up enough as bubka has, his pole speed begins to slow prematurely (compared to bubkas), and the angle of his top hand is much lower than bubkas. Out of necessity, it appears to me that Isakkson artificially bends the pole much more than bubka. It's the only way to keep the pole speed moving at such a low COM angle off the ground, to press more with the top hand.

This would also explain why he used a wider grip- to give him the benefit of pushing more forcefully to artificially bend the pole. ... there is no reason for Bubka to apply artificial bending pressure with his bottom hand, because he is already moving the pole well and travelling at the appropriate angle toward the bar. I am not saying bubka does not use his bottom arm in the vault, but he does not use it to artificially bend the pole, rather to stabilize the energy of his run into and through his top hand, and guide his takeoff angle upward. The PRESS of the bottom arm shown by Isakkson is a crutch to his take off being less than ideal, and can be traced back to his plant being late (not fully extended) during his Penultimate.

... i think that if Isakkson had gotten his plant up a step earlier, he would have had the opportunity to jump up more into the vault, and would not need to press his bottom hand to continue pole movement. Then, he could shorten his grip width and vaulter higher. ...

Honestly, 3P0, I don't know where you get your info about Isaksson's allegedly "pressing his bottom hand to continue pole movement" from. I have deja vu of the entire debate re Bubka a couple years ago on this very same point. The only possible reason that I can think that you've concluded this is becuz you're analyzing a series of still vids ... one by one ... and you don't have a very good sense of the overall timing of his vault.

I can tell you from first hand observations that his entire vault was VERY fast ... barely time to drive the chest thru or let the pole bend ... let alone slow his swing down to BEND the pole. That was definitely not in his repetoire! Really, I think this might come down to your concluding that since his pole bent, then he must have BENT it ... with the bottom arm.

This was EXACTLY the same misunderstanding of a couple years ago re whether Bubka bent the pole with his bottom arm ... or whether his bottom arm straightened becuz he was hanging onto the pole with it! For Bubka at least, I think the conclusion ... after several pages of debate ... was that he was not forcefully trying to bend the pole with his bottom arm.

Until you can prove otherwise, I assert that the same holds true for Isaksson. Take a look at still frame #6 - his bottom elbow is still quite bent ... yet the pole is quite well bent. If he WAS pressing with his bottom arm, don't you think it would be straighter? He did NOT try to slow down his swing "to stay behind the pole" ... rather, he began swing even before a full C ... more like the 640 Model than the Petrov Model.

But you shouldn't exclude the possibility that the bend came ... almost ENTIRELY ... from the force of his top hand on the pole when it hit the box. You gotta gimme something more to go on ... becuz I'm really at a loss as to why you think he's "forcing the bend" with his bottom arm.

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Re: takeoff angle and beyond

Unread postby PVstudent » Thu Mar 25, 2010 1:19 am

Kirk and "vault3rb0y," before we go off track again should note that I gave the video references that were the source of the images and are even more enlightening in relation to the respective actions and contributions to each vaulter's abilty as to timing and angular amplitude of their respective inversions.

Put concisely, Isaaksson because he takes off too far out ,`Collides with the pole via the top hand when the pole tip contacts the rear of the box wall ' . Bubka by springing predominantly in the vertical upward direction is `elevating the pole so that an effective "Couple" is created by the impact of the pole tip with the rear wall of the planting box'. A completely different form of collision outcome is thereby being obtained by the respective vaulters.

Remember both these vaulters were, on the occassions in question, at the epitomy of of their pole vaulting craftmanship and the techniques they used are to me very obviously different.

The differences observed, I strongly suggest, are inevitable consequences of the respective vaulter's take-offs. Once airbourne the effects of the different role played by the lower grip arm can be observed in both cases (please refer to video evidence) to have differential effects on the vaulting outcome. The outcome, though influenced by the pole used, I contend was achieved with greater efficiency by Bubka.

Speed of inversions on the basis of the specific evidence (visual only) in both cases can be suggested but not dogmatically inferred. The photographic problems and different filming speeds camera angles etc. make the assertions in this regard suggestive but not conclusive!

I have prepared a table of comparative descriptions of the actions of these two vaulters. I will have to post it as a PDF file to which readers might refer. We still have not completly described the phenomenon to fully enable the Agapit and Petrov Hypotheses to be tested.

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Re: takeoff angle and beyond

Unread postby PVstudent » Thu Mar 25, 2010 11:54 am

I have made the Bubka and Isaksson Comparison Table available as a public downloadable PDF file at the address below:

http://www.scribd.com//doc/28914050/Bubka-Versus-Isaksson-Comparison-Table
(copy and paste into browser search window to find the document)

The table is purely descriptive. It does not offer explanations for what is observed. I do this in the hope that the table will stimulate some critical examination of the vault technique differences. The contribution of the lower grip arm to pole angle and in making efficient, effective and safer vaulting technique possible might emerge from the discussion.
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Re: takeoff angle and beyond

Unread postby AllaboutPV1 » Thu Mar 25, 2010 1:41 pm

KirkB wrote:But you shouldn't exclude the possibility that the bend came ... almost ENTIRELY ... from the force of his top hand on the pole when it hit the box. You gotta gimme something more to go on ... becuz I'm really at a loss as to why you think he's "forcing the bend" with his bottom arm.


kirk, i found this video on you tube, you keep saying that bubka never pushed the bottom arm up or did anything with it, i found that in this jum 1:47 into the video that bubka's left arm pushes up at t-o. how can you say that bubka didn't try to bend the pole he looked pretty forceful with the left hand in this jump and he almost blew through his pole. there is no denying that if you push up with the left arm not block, and continue to row forcefully with both hands that you can put more energy into the vault, and get on bigger poles. i think bubka's best jumps were the ones where he pushed up more with the left hand. here is the video from you tube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-b8OKuHLR68

look at 1:47 and the jump right after,

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Re: takeoff angle and beyond

Unread postby tsorenson » Thu Mar 25, 2010 2:35 pm

PV Student,

Thanks for posting your observations...we all see through different lenses and it is always helpful to hear what others are seeing. I am glad to see some similarities in our perspective.

I still stand by my initial post, and that regardless of what Isaakson was "doing" with his bottom arm (pushing or immediate pull action? somebody else can argue that one), that it's position lower on the pole in relation to his body and top hand (i.e. wider grip) created a lower angle of force on the pole at takeoff, causing more bend and less pole rotation. This is one of the major differences in their vaults. The position of the arms, spine, and hips during the first phase of pole support seem to be related to the forces exchanged between the pole and the lower grip arm after pole impact. Basically, he gets smacked a lot harder by the pole (which hyperextends his lumbar and drives his top shoulder way back) because his lower hand isn't able to extend elastically above his forehead, which would spread the impact forces into an elastic, full-body stretch.

Also, as I stated before the correct planting action (including knee drive) and high position of the hands driven up and through the takeoff, with a relatively stiff/straight takeoff leg (at takeofffoot contact) is necessary for Bubka's fast upward impulse. Too much of a settle step on the penultimate is not good (loss of speed and lower COM at takeoff). The plant action and relatively narrow grip, and the free pole drop used by Bubka allowed him to explode off the ground without much of a "settle step". Isaakson's inability to jump up at takeoff as much as Bubka is partly due to his wide grip which robs you of the upward impulse of both arms during the plant. Anyone agree?

Cheers,
Tom

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Re: takeoff angle and beyond

Unread postby Robert schmitt » Thu Mar 25, 2010 7:02 pm

tsorenson wrote:PV Student,

The plant action and relatively narrow grip, and the free pole drop used by Bubka allowed him to explode off the ground without much of a "settle step".
Cheers,
Tom


It's worth noting that the free pole drop allows a narrower grip b/c the vaulter does not need the wider grip for leverage during the pole carry/plant and allows for better run and take off/swing mechanics. Also high pole carry does not = free pole drop.
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Re: takeoff angle and beyond

Unread postby PVstudent » Thu Mar 25, 2010 8:09 pm

tsorenson,

tsorenson wrote:I still stand by my initial post, and that regardless of what Isaakson was "doing" with his bottom arm (pushing or immediate pull action? somebody else can argue that one), that it's position lower on the pole in relation to his body and top hand (i.e. wider grip) created a lower angle of force on the pole at takeoff, causing more bend and less pole rotation. This is one of the major differences in their vaults. The position of the arms, spine, and hips during the first phase of pole support seem to be related to the forces exchanged between the pole and the lower grip arm after pole impact. Basically, he gets smacked a lot harder by the pole (which hyperextends his lumbar and drives his top shoulder way back) because his lower hand isn't able to extend elastically above his forehead, which would spread the impact forces into an elastic, full-body stretch.


I think your explanatory description reflects what I think we are seeing happen. You pinpoint, what I perceive to be the key,
tsorenson wrote:The position of the arms, spine, and hips during the first phase of pole support seem to be related to the forces exchanged between the pole and the lower grip arm after pole impact.
and I would add the subsequent capacity of the respective vaulters to add additional energy in the rest of the vault by means of more forceful swings of great amplitude and directional precision.

Robert schmitt wrote:It's worth noting that the free pole drop allows a narrower grip b/c the vaulter does not need the wider grip for leverage during the pole carry/plant and allows for better run and take off/swing mechanics. Also high pole carry does not = free pole drop.


I agree with you Robert in regard to the free pole drop allowing a narrower grip. I also agree that a high pole carry does not necessarily equate to a free pole drop (This issue is worthy of another discussion topic in itself).

Both responses are most helpful and constructive. To me the picture is becoming clearer by bringing critical differences between these two World Record holders into sharper focus.Also explanations so far make sense.
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Re: takeoff angle and beyond

Unread postby PVstudent » Thu Mar 25, 2010 9:17 pm

AllaboutPV1 wrote:kirk, i found this video on you tube, you keep saying that bubka never pushed the bottom arm up or did anything with it, i found that in this jum 1:47 into the video that bubka's left arm pushes up at t-o. how can you say that bubka didn't try to bend the pole he looked pretty forceful with the left hand in this jump and he almost blew through his pole


The words "never did anything with it" are a jump too far in the interpretation you place on the film you referred to. Bubka is most certainly using his bottom arm - but how and for what purpose?

I hope kirk responds to you because it is not what I understood him to be saying.

In regard to the video of one handed vaulting, impressive though it was, did you not perceive that both both Isaksson and Bubka used both arms to pole vault. I seriously doubt that i will live to see a one armed pole vaulter legally clear a crossbar height greater than 6.15m. Great video and shows one handed vaulting is possible. However it makes 5-6 metre heights look very difficult heights to clear.

Yes one handed vaulting is possible! But why is it that two handed pole vaulting is so much more effective?
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Re: takeoff angle and beyond

Unread postby KirkB » Thu Mar 25, 2010 11:10 pm

I can't find my exact quote, but I think it was something like this:
... Bubka never used his bottom arm to bend the pole (much)


PVstudent wrote:
AllaboutPV1 wrote:... bubka's left arm pushes up at t-o. how can you say that bubka didn't try to bend the pole he looked pretty forceful with the left hand in this jump and he almost blew through his pole


The words "never did anything with it" are a jump too far in the interpretation you place on the film you referred to. Bubka is most certainly using his bottom arm - but how and for what purpose?

I hope kirk responds to you because it is not what I understood him to be saying.

What I'm saying is that Bubka knows how to bend the pole. He knows that it ONLY takes the top arm to bend it. And I believe that he did this better than ANYONE - bar none. I of course have never spoken with Bubka, but if I ever had the chance, I'd ask him about this, and I believe that he would verify that the energy that he generates from his run and takeoff goes into the pole thru his top hand ... almost ENTIRELY.

I don't think we need to revisit the debate about what happens once you leave the ground ... the energy of the run and takeoff is locked into the vaulter-pole system at that instant ... and all you can do is redistribute it. From thereon, the name of the game is energy conservation (minimize leakage). Sure, you can bend the pole MORE by applying bottom arm pressure then, but at the expense of killing your swing ... and at the expense of leakage. Bubka clearly does not kill his swing ... and he clearly has less leakage than any other vaulter - bar none. What's his secret? It's almost ENTIRELY top-arm action!

I honestly don't understand why so many observers of his vids ... and Isaksson's vids for that matter ... watch the same vids as I do, and come to completely opposite conclusions. I don't see a need for Bubka or Isaksson to press with their bottom arm ... so I don't see it. Some of you can't imagine how the hell these WR-holders could possibly put so much bend into their poles without any aid of the bottom arm whatsoever ... so your conclusions are that they MUST have done something with that bottom arm to bend the pole! We all have rose-colored glasses ... me too. :dazed:

It's almost like you're looking for the magic potion, and you think their "secret" is in the "fact" that they actually DO bend the pole with the bottom arm. I assert the exact opposite ... the magic in their vaults is in the fact that the pole's going to bend not matter WHAT they do with that darned bottom arm.

Perhaps the wrinkle ... the confusion ... is that there is some incidental, minor action with the bottom arm ... but I believe that to be a red-herring. Even if there was incidental, minor action there, it's NOT 95% or more of the reason why the pole is bending! The 95% reason is in the energy that goes thru the top hand. The other 5% (an arbitrary %, just as an example), is this incidental, minor bottom arm action.

If EVERY vaulter on PVP wants to vault like Bubka ... or as HIGH as Bubka ... they should copy the 95% of his vault that is MANDATORY to jump high ... and ignore the other 5%. If you focus on the 5% ... at the expense of the 95% ... then your vault is going to be more than 50% bottom arm action, and LESS than 50% bending of the pole PROPERLY ... with the top hand. Why? Becuz you'll over-emphasize the importance of the bottom arm. You need to change your focus to the part that buys you the most benefit. OK ... end of rant.

PVstudent wrote: Yes one handed vaulting is possible! But why is it that two handed pole vaulting is so much more effective?

To be clear about why Tim expiremented with one-armed vaulting a couple years ago ... he did it to prove for himself ... one way or the other ... that you COULD bend the pole without using your bottom arm AT ALL.

Tim, please chime in ... but if I recall your conclusion (you PROMISED us that you're coming back!), it was "I give up ... I conclude that you CAN bend the pole with just the top arm".

Two-handed vaulting is more effective ... but it's NOT more effective becuz you need to do a lot of work with your bottom arm after takeoff.

Why is it more effective? Becuz it's damn hard to run and plant with one arm ... and once you start swinging, and "your pole turns into a highbar" (as Tulley once said), then your bottom arm is ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL! :idea:

Kirk
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Re: takeoff angle and beyond

Unread postby KirkB » Thu Mar 25, 2010 11:20 pm

PVstudent, I know you want to get back to the Bubka/Isaksson comparison ... and I'm keenly interested in that topic too ... but I just can't focus on that one until I've finished my rant re bottom arm. I'm hoping that I'm done on that ... but we'll see where this goes. Meanwhile, please proceed on the comparison, and I'll join that chat when I have more time - in a few days.

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Re: takeoff angle and beyond

Unread postby KYLE ELLIS » Thu Mar 25, 2010 11:30 pm

Kirk, I hate how you put things in the light that you like it to be.... TIM ALWAYS KNEW that you could take your bottom arm off the pole after takeoff, what he wanted to see is if it was possible to plant with on arm being on the pole. Not plant, takeoff, then take the hand off. And guess what, when he took it off before the takeoff was done the pole SMACKED HIM!
It didn't go anything like you try and make it seem. He gave up because Essx "thought" it was possible to do so, but you could sense the non believer in him still.
He didn't do the experiment to see if the top arm would bend the pole, he knew that already. What he was saying and what I have been saying, and EIUvaulter says is that the bottom arm does play a role.
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Re: takeoff angle and beyond

Unread postby vault3rb0y » Fri Mar 26, 2010 12:36 am

Kirk I think you may have skimmed by post and not fully understood what I was saying. It boils down to this:

The better your take off angle and position, the less action your bottom arm has to play to support the impact of the pole in the box.

Bubka has superb take off angle and position, and therefore i believe requires little if any bottom arm upward pressure to allow for a smooth transfer of energy through his top hand. However, I believe he still uses his bottom arm as a stabilization, applying a "rowing" pressure with his triceps and latissimus in the exact same direct as the top hand.

Had bubka hit an UNDER (or less than ideal) take off, IMO he WOULD HAVE HAD one of two options. 1) apply the same pressure in the same direction, and lose energy in doing so by a significant loss of pole speed upon impact (aka fiberface) 2) use some upward pressure to smooth the take off even while under, and still lose energy that could be going into the top hand, but maintain more pole speed that option #1, and once impact is made, he can release the upward pressure and resume the vault as usual.

The fact that I said Isakkson (i believe) engages his bottom arm in upward pressure more than bubka does NOT mean i support it! Quit trying to pretending I'm advocating we all press hard with your bottom hands the whole vault, because I'm not. I'm simply saying that the less-ideal your Take off is (for whatever reason), the more vaulters must use their bottom arm as a "quick fix" to maintain pole speed. Isakkson is less than Ideal because he takes off too far out, leading to a lower take off angle. The fact that he does not get fiberfaced tells me he probably engaged his bottom arm more than bubka. Unless your top arm tricep and latissimus are extremely powerful, i believe it is very difficult to NOT press upwards to some degree (in initiation of pole bend) WHEN YOUR TAKE OFF IS LESS THAN IDEAL! When it's ideal, like bubka's, you don't need to.

The only reason I am even posting again is because i think what i said is being misinterpreted by Kirk. Even if Isakkson was striving to not press up with his bottom hand, it is my opinion that with a less-than-ideal take off, his options were either a "punch" of the bottom arm, or a certain degree of fiberface. Until he fixes his angle and position off the ground, some bottom arm action is necessary.
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