takeoff angle and beyond

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Re: takeoff angle and beyond

Unread postby PVstudent » Sun Mar 21, 2010 2:22 am

Gentlemen let's tone it down .... we musn't upset the kiddies.

Lets get back on topic. I would like to read less rhetoric, less `old bulls protecting their sacred cows' and read more facts (if there are any!) and reasoned analysis and explanation of what is happening in the first phase of the vault at and immediately after the toes of the take-off foot break contact with the ground.

Specifially addressing the role and means whereby the lower grip arm contributes to the vault would be educative. So old bulls lets have some wisdom and wit rather than nonsensical headbutting and horn locking.

Looking forward to reasoned, factual (where possible) data support, along with clearly explained rationales for the "hypotheses" and conjectures being discussed.
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Re: takeoff angle and beyond

Unread postby altius » Sun Mar 21, 2010 2:41 am

:if a a pre-jump had anything to do with a penultimate ". If you had read those pages you will have seen that the pre jump has nothing to do with the penultimate - indeed the penultimate is not mentioned anywhere. The pre jump is a term I coined to describe the kind of take off Bubka states that he was always aiming for - ie to be in the air even by a few hundredths of a second before the pole tip hit the back of the box, I felt it worthwhile to do so because it seemed to me that it was an extension of the free take of - which implies a take off simultaneous with the box contact. The original paper was printed in Modern athlete and coach in 1989 - it did not include all of the material in BTB2 because at that time I had not discussed it with Bubka. While it was reprinted in Leichtathletic it was and has been treated with derision by other coaches.

I am not contributing anymore to this discussion. Everything I know about the vault is in BTB2. If folk havent read it I cannot help that - but I do find it strange that you did not remember a topic as interesting and controversial as that one - which has five pages on the topic. But look - enjoy and have a good day.

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Re: takeoff angle and beyond

Unread postby dj » Sun Mar 21, 2010 8:13 am

hye

i think i should have phrased this differently...

i believe petrov refers to the penultimate as the pre-jump.. which in itself signifies a "jump" is to follow.


should read...

i believe petrov refers to the penultimate as what allan refers to as the pre-jump.. which in itself signifies a "jump" is to follow.

a "jump" should constitute a "change in angles" which should happen from the "impluse" from a faster last stride.

Petrov states this.

The most dangerous moment during the drop is an early touch of the box when the transition is made from the right to take-off foot.(left)

Before the take-off leg contacts the ground, the vaulter needs to create a maximum space between himself/herself and the pole.

the foot should be planted for the take-off firmly with a quick roll-up on the ball of the foot. (impluse) The vaulter must pay more attention to the swing with the right (lead knee) leg bent to a maximum in order to move the hips forward, trying to keep the shoulders in the front position, until the END of the swing.



ps.. i left this out of the initial post...

Petrov Quote... The length of the last strides should not change abruptly. The 2nd to last step is longer than the last one by 10-20 cm (optional)


i personally feel and have found that 10 cm for world class vaulters would be a max.... ie.. too long and the athlete will "slow" too short or not at all would not allow for a "jump" or impluse..

From Peter McGinnis high speed film.. 1987

The timing of the pole plant was also significant. Bubka's pole hit the back of the box during the second half of his take-off foot support phase. (meaning after the foot stride and the "impluse" had him moving up) His right leg swinged (swung) up quite high. Again, his relative vertical extension of his plant arm was excellent and his handgrip was still almost directly above the toes of his take-off foot. His pole was only slightly bent at takeoff.

His release in this vault (5.85m) was unusual, perhaps because the pole was too soft and he needed to get off the pole early so it didn't push him futher into the pit. His right and left hands released the pole almost simultaneously.

His last two steps were... second to last 2.10m/6'10 and 3/4
last step........2.04m/6'8 and 1/2

dj

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Re: takeoff angle and beyond

Unread postby KirkB » Sun Mar 21, 2010 3:44 pm

Upon further inspection of BTB2, I did find these 2 References on page 305 ...

Launder A. "The Pre jump - a revolution in the pole vault", Modern Athlete and Coach, 27/3 July 1989
Launder A. "The pre jump take off in the pole vault revisited", Modern Athlete and Coach 36/2 April 1998

altius wrote: ... If you had read those pages you will have seen that the pre jump has nothing to do with the penultimate - indeed the penultimate is not mentioned anywhere.

I see no reason to get snotty about this (the underlined part). PVstudent would have preferred to have read just the part that wasn't underlined. Me too. :dazed:

There appear to be 2 different interpretations of what a "pre-jump" is ... yours ... and DJs. You quote your book ... DJ quotes Petrov. I'm simply trying to get clarification. Is that such a big a crime? :dazed:

altius wrote: ... I am not contributing anymore to this discussion. Everything I know about the vault is in BTB2. If folk haven't read it I cannot help that - but I do find it strange that you did not remember a topic as interesting and controversial as that one - which has five pages on the topic. But look - enjoy and have a good day.

It's a cop-out to just say "I am not contributing anymore to this discussion" ... and "read my book". Most authors would welcome an opportunity to clarify what they've written. :dazed:

Alan, I can appreciate why you might get tired of repeating the same old answers to the same old questions. But in this case, I do not believe the comparison between the pre-jump and the penultimate has ever been raised before. So why not take this issue at its face value, and shed some light on it ... instead of getting snotty? :dazed:

A better thought might be ... "What can I do to improve the readability of my book?" ... and "Why was this topic not memorable to some readers?" ... and "How can I generate more interest in my book?"

You didn't ask ... but I'll advise you on what I think the answers to these 3 questions MIGHT be ...

1. What can I do to improve the readability of my book?
An index at the back of the book ... and perhaps a glossary ... would help tremendously. People might read this book cover-to-cover, but they also refer to it when a particular topic comes up. There's a lot of PV terminology that you define ... so an index and/or a glossary would add value to the book. Also, despite a good attempt at separating this complex sport into 28 distinct chapters, your book has considerable overlap and repetition of many aspects of PV. Besides the index and glossary, a re-organization of some of the inter-related aspects might be beneficial to improve the reader's overall understanding, and more cross-referencing of repeated content might improve the book's readability.

For example, Chapters 24-27 describe the Run up, the Plant, the Take Off, and the swing into inversion. Describing these aspects of the PV much earlier in the book might be a better lead in to "how to coach it" ... first explaining what the phases of the vault are called, then describing them ... with pics ... and then explaining how to coach it. The title of the book is "From Beginner to Bubka and Isi too!" ... yet Chapter 1 does not lay the ground work for a beginner ... it talks about Bubka and Isi!

2. Why was this topic not memorable to some readers?
BTB2 has 28 chapters of EXCELLENT content ... 286 pages worth. After that, there's another 23 pages of Appendices, References, and Author Bios. That's a HEAVY book about a HEAVY topic. You cannot expect everyone to digest it in its entirety in a single sitting, and even after having read it cover-to-cover, you cannot expect everyone to understand it in its entirety. Thus, it should not be surprising if some topics stand out more than others ... or if the occassional ORIGINAL work on a topic ... by the same author ... was more memorable than its mention in the book.

3. How can I generate more interest in my book?
Continue doing what you USUALLY do on PVP ... clarifying areas of confusion ... or specific problem areas that a coach or athlete might have that isn't directly addressed in the book ... without getting snotty about it! :idea:

Altius, I'm an avid fan of your book ... and I think for the most part, I've supported your cause, and publicly applauded your work on PVP. It is very strange that I should be put on the defensive, and INSULTED becuz I didn't remember a particular topic way at the back of the book ... on pp 241-245 ... even tho I clearly remembered your original paper on the topic. Weird.

Kirk
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Re: takeoff angle and beyond

Unread postby dj » Sun Mar 21, 2010 6:19 pm

this from Bubka
The Free Take Off is a very short period of time, we can say no more than hundreds of a second, going from the end of the take off and the moment in which the tip of the pole reaches the end of the box.


I think I understand Alan now.. the pre-jump (his coined term) is when the vaulter has “jumped” and is leaving or has left the ground just before the pole strikes the back of the box??..

To accomplish this “jump” or what I call an upward “impulse”. This is accomplished by lowering and then raising of the COM over the last two steps and by shortening or speeding up the last stride so there is a greater impulse, which is called a penultimate step or penultimate action in other jumping events…
Bubka continues with this…..

The last three strides are very important, they must be very compact in order to be able to increase speed. The movement must begin with your right hand, which cannot be behind the hip axis. If the hand is slightly forward, it is possible to move the arms to the front and upwards.

When you do the penultimate touch down, on the right foot for a vaulter who takes off with the left leg, the right hand must be at eyes' level, in front of the face and with the arm flexed at the elbow 90 degrees. In the meantime, the pole must be lowering towards the box. Both arms must be very active,


And this……………………………………………………………………..

it is not necessary to extend the right arm upwards when you are still on the right foot, in that case you will perform the take off closer to the box than recommended.


Petrov says this…… Before the take-off leg contacts the ground, the vaulter needs to create a maximum space between himself/herself and the pole.

………the foot should be planted for the take-off firmly with a quick roll-up on the ball of the foot.


this is the "impluse" i see from the penultimate action... must be there and must be fast..

honestly i see the pre-jump and this "impluse as one in the same.. and i'm ok with anyone calling it a pre-jump if they understand what it is...

dj

and PS... i'm going to say something i don't know if i have ever said on here... that is #1 in importance in coaching "technique"

most important.. big time in the vault..

any issue you have tecnically, back up one step in the "chain" and fix what is happening there and you will always be right... for example if your plant takeoff is incorrect.. fix the run.. if your swing is incorrect fix the run and plant.. it's that simple... three parts .. RUN>>>PLANT>>>SWING>>

if the run is off... fix the pole carry and stride lenghts.. got it??!! :yes: :yes: :D

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Re: takeoff angle and beyond

Unread postby PVstudent » Sun Mar 21, 2010 10:11 pm

Kjell Isaksson Take Off.jpg
State of the art in 1972
Kjell Isaksson Take Off.jpg (117.85 KiB) Viewed 5721 times


[img]
Bubka%20Paris%20Take%20Off%20first%20ever%206.0m%20Jump.jpg
[/img]

The images of Isaksson and Bubka are very revealing in their portrayal of the role of the lower grip arm during the the take-off and the start of the 1st phase of pole support. The first phase of pole suport I am defining as the vaulter having boken contact with the ground at "take-off foot toes off the ground" until the pole reaches a positional shape of maximum bend.

Altius is quite right I am an old bull. Until stirred by agitation in the field nearby I was quite content to chew my cud and observe the action. I am not joining that fray but would like readers to consider the evidence of the images presented. The actions of Bubka and Isaksson, to me, are very distinctly different in regard to the dynamics of take-off and lower grip arm action. What do others see and what is their interpretation of the role played by the lower grip arm?
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Bubka Paris Take Off first ever 6.0m Jump.jpg
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Bubka Paris Take Off first ever 6.0m Jump.jpg (121.91 KiB) Viewed 5721 times
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Re: takeoff angle and beyond

Unread postby dj » Sun Mar 21, 2010 11:11 pm

hey

any differences in the bottom arm came from the way their poles bent... i did a comparison in the 80's with tracing paper and both vaulters from the same side and angle.. in the same frames.. i put a symetrically bending pole, Bubka's bend, on Issakson's jump... and his left arm would have had to extend like Bubka's if the poles bent the same.

Issakson's pole bent more at the bottom and stayed strighter on the top three forths of the pole.. Bubka's bent "round" from top to bottm..

i check the pole patterns compared to grip and it was obivous how each would bend based on design...

I think (know) issakson was trying to run fast, takeoff out, reach as high as possible and swing as fast as he could...(physics) the technique we are calling "the model" but with petrov, Bubka AND pole design refinements.........

dj

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Re: takeoff angle and beyond

Unread postby tsorenson » Mon Mar 22, 2010 1:27 pm

PVstudent,
I will reply to your question, not because I feel I am an expert, but because I am very interested in this topic and appreciate your attempts to keep this discussion productive.

Bubka's grip is obviously narrower than Isaakson's, which seems to allow his bottom arm to be driven more upwards than forwards. Bubka's COM in photo 6 is lined up pretty close to a direct line below the bottom hand, which is above his forehead. Even with the slightly different camera angle Isaakson's left hand never gets above his forehead, it stays well out in front, seemingly in front of his COM. In this position Bubka seems set up to swing much more powerfully than Isaakson.

Having the bottom hand closer to the top hand allows the force being delivered to the pole to be at a higher point on the pole, and changes the vector of the force applied to a more upward angle. When combined with a fast free takeoff, strong upward pressure with both hands, an elastic pectoral girdle, and a dynamic outward flex of the bottom arm, Bubka can get the pole moving forward a lot more rather than bending, whereas Isaakson's bottom arm jams more forward into the pole, certainly generating more bend earlier in the vault. Obviously, you need to find the optimum point of grip because too narrow would not be good either; less control and less leverage in the swing/inversion.

DJ, I agree with most things you say most times, but it seems more like the pole bends differently due to the position of the left arm, rather than the left arm bending due to the different pole.
Also, the prejump discussion may be confusing to some people: Bubka's takeoff in these pictures is certainly what Launder would call a "pre-jump", an extension of a free takeoff where you are completely off the ground when the tip makes contact with the stopboard (In fact, these are the photos shown in BTB2 regarding the prejump). DJ's comments about the pre-jump are more about the penultimate step and plant (also very important topics) rather than the takeoff point. I like the quotes from Bubka you posted about the timing of the plant and the angle and position of the arms. This is very important stuff: the goal of the plant should be to set up for an explosive impulse with both arms and drive knee upward at takeoff, off a relatively stiff takeoff leg. As Bubka said, extending the arms too early changes the takeoff and the loss of that upward impulse tends to pull you under.

Hope to further the discussion
Tom

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Re: takeoff angle and beyond

Unread postby Tim McMichael » Wed Mar 24, 2010 11:57 am

Okay, I'm going to start talking about this again. One of the main reasons I have been silent for so long is that after I lost my argument about the bottom arm, I decided that I needed to know more before I spoke up again. About a year has gone by and now I am not sure I know much more. But I will dive in again soon.

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Re: takeoff angle and beyond

Unread postby vault3rb0y » Wed Mar 24, 2010 2:39 pm

Outside perspective.... take it as it is. "The old bulls can sometimes use a pair of young calf eyes" or whatever proverb you wanna throw in....

Isaksson is late in his plant initiation right off the bat. Right from frame #1, Bubka is in full extension and Isaksson has still not brought extended his top hand. So Bubka is in a much better, free-er position to jump UP (impulse, or whatever).

As a Consequence to a late plant, Isaksson's take off angle is less that optimal. It appears that he jumps more "into" the pole, while bubka jumps "UP AND into" the pole. Hence the more, and possibly over-exaggerated finished take off position by isakkson. This drive into the pole is also evident by the foot of Isaksson's drive knee prematurely moving from underneath his body, to out in front of his drive knee. Bubka keeps his drive-leg foot underneath him, as this is a sign of jumping UP more at take off. So One's angle is higher, one is lower.

NOW.... PVstudent in my opinion this is where the bottom arm came in for Isakkson. Because he has not jumped up enough as bubka has, his pole speed begins to slow prematurely (compared to bubkas), and the angle of his top hand is much lower than bubkas. Out of necessity, it appears to me that Isakkson artificially bends the pole much more than bubka. It's the only way to keep the pole speed moving at such a low COM angle off the ground, to press more with the top hand.

This would also explain why he used a wider grip- to give him the benefit of pushing more forcefully to artificially bend the pole. Bubka on the other hand, bends the pole with a full extension and UP jump at take off. His pole is already moving as fast as it can, pressing the bottom arm will not maintain any more pole speed, but only lower his angle toward the bar. His COM angle off the ground is much higher, and his top hand moves upward rather than inward. Therefore, there is no reason for bubka to apply artificial bending pressure with his bottom hand, because he is already moving the pole well and travelling at the appropriate angle toward the bar. I am not saying bubka does not use his bottom arm in the vault, but he does not use it to artificially bend the pole, rather to stabilize the energy of his run into and through his top hand, and guide his takeoff angle upward. The PRESS of the bottom arm shown by Isakkson is a crutch to his take off being less than ideal, and can be traced back to his plant being late (not fully extended) during his Penultimate.

Kirk.... of course the penultimate step has something to do with a pre-jump, But only indirectly. Directly, a pre-jump is as defined in Alan's book, nothing more. Indirectly, if you do not set yourself up from the very first step of your vault, building up into the pre-jump (penultimate included) you will have a harder time to achieve a correct pre-jump. Proper plant position and initiation is a precursor to a pre-jump, and proper drop is a precursor to a proper plant position and intiation.


So.... i think that if Isakkson had gotten his plant up a step earlier, he would have had the opportunity to jump up more into the vault, and would not need to press his bottom hand to continue pole movement. Then, he could shorten his grip width and vaulter higher.

DJ, you suggest that the different pole explains their differences in technique. If this is true, then shouldn't they look identical at least until pole impact? Anyone disagree?

PVstudent... i hope this is more along the lines you were looking for.
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Re: takeoff angle and beyond

Unread postby bdc629 » Wed Mar 24, 2010 8:58 pm

Not sure if anyone has seen this or not....here is a vaulter even though he is not on big poles he is still jumping one handed....


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfuVmVYsTUc

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Re: takeoff angle and beyond

Unread postby PVstudent » Wed Mar 24, 2010 9:43 pm

Bubka v Isaksson pole support corrected.jpg
Bubka v Isaksson Pole support 1st Phase
Bubka v Isaksson pole support corrected.jpg (131.16 KiB) Viewed 5614 times


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-UwBaf8f98
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7K-HZaXRpSA

The image set and my annotations I hope will assist viewers to to observe and verify / falsify the observations made by vault3rb0y and tsorenson.

The evidence is, I believe, beginning to stack up to suggest a conclusion that Isaksson did not jump like Bubka Before Bubka!

I perceive the "technique efficiency gulf" between Isaksson and Bubka to be too great for the differences between these great vaulters to be explained away by arguments attributing the differences to "person style."

There are many other important differences that need to be identified. I will not comment but give others further opportunity to present their observations.

The role of the lower grip arm still requires more careful critcal observations as does the contributions of the lead leg to the upward motion of the vaulter's entire body. The same comment I suggest also needs to made in regard to the head and neck.

Very valuable contributions so far. Let's continue to keeep the waters clear and not get distracted from getting a better "handle" on the role of the Lower grip arm and its contribution to pole angle of attack and continuity of motion in the 1st phase of pole support.
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