New Mid Mark Chart

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KirkB
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Re: New Mid Mark Chart

Unread postby KirkB » Fri Jan 08, 2010 3:49 pm

KYLE ELLIS wrote: ... As you grip higher and higher your pole starts further and further away from vertical. So if a taller vaulter and shorter vaulter both stood at 12ft and gripped appropriately, the taller guy would grip higher but the pole angle would remain the same with both. Just to use an example we will say that the pole for both started at 33 degrees, they need they same speed to move that pole to 90 degrees, even though the taller vaulter is gripping higher.

There seems to be a lot of woowoo physics going on here. Let's use this paragraph as just one example ...

In the underlined sentence, you have a shorter vaulter and a taller vaulter, both taking off from 12 feet out.

You say that the taller guy is going to grip higher. That's true. :yes: And that the angle of the pole is 33 degrees for both. That's false! :no:

Why is that false? Let's keep this example simple ... make that 30 degrees ... and forget about the 8" depth of the box.

Now according to Pythagorus and his theorems, we have a simple 30-60-90 triangle here, where the sides are in the ratio of 1:1.732:2 ... the 1.732 being the sqrt of 3.

So with a 12.0' takeoff, the shorter vaulter's reaching height is 6.9', and his grip is 13.9'.

You say that with this same 12.0' takeoff, the taller vaulter will have the SAME 30 degree angle ... but with a HIGHER grip. :confused:

What does the taller vaulter's triangle look like? Well, increasing the reach ... from 6.9' to something higher ... does increase the GRIP ... from 13.9' to something higher ... but it also INCREASES the angle ... from 30 degrees to something more than 30! :confused:

You cannot vary the REACH and the GRIP with a fixed TAKEOFF point and pole ANGLE!!! Said another way, if the TAKEOFF point is fixed, and the REACH varies, then the GRIP and the pole ANGLE must vary.

KE, I'm not going to say "you're clueless" (as you so rudely said to someone else on this forum yesterday) ... but you do need to get a better grasp of physics if you want to convince us of the merits of your improved Mid Mark Chart. :idea:

Please ammend your statement(s) so that they're believable by Pythagorus and his followers.

Kirk
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Re: New Mid Mark Chart

Unread postby KYLE ELLIS » Fri Jan 08, 2010 3:51 pm

To VaultPurple, you are right about the pole angle... I didn't know how to say correctly what I was trying to say. But I think even DJ will tell you himself that you are wrong about everything else.
If you watch Trindon Holliday race a taller guy, and if he beats the taller guy then I can tell you that his stride length and frequency are both greater, if not atleast his stride frequency will be.
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Re: New Mid Mark Chart

Unread postby KYLE ELLIS » Fri Jan 08, 2010 3:53 pm

Yes Kirk, I explained what I was seeing in my brain incorrectly, Thank you for input!!

Part of my problem is that I post really fast, with little time to read over my gramatical errors; and sometimes I explain my ideas completely wrong!! This is something I must work on :yes: ;)

But I guess the main point I am trying to make is that if two vaulters gripped the same height, but one is a foot shorter, he will not only have to take-off further out, but has a greater pole angle to move in :yes: :yes: Lol :o
So wouldn't the smaller vaulter need more horizontal velocity to move that pole in and takeoff from further out??????!!!!!

That is all I am trying to say, if I made any other dumb mistakes in my post please bring them to my attention. Thank you.
Last edited by KYLE ELLIS on Fri Jan 08, 2010 4:02 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: New Mid Mark Chart

Unread postby KirkB » Fri Jan 08, 2010 3:57 pm

VP, thanks for the diagram. That explains it better than my last post ... our posts "crossed in the mail". If I had seen your diagram first, I would not have posted.

Kyle ... thanks for admitting your mistake! :yes: ;)

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Re: New Mid Mark Chart

Unread postby VaultPurple » Fri Jan 08, 2010 4:12 pm

.. really love to hear DJs opinion on this one since my run fits his chart perfectly and you say that is impossiable...

but as far as the short sprinter beating the taller sprinter having to have a longer stride, that is just not always true. For this exact reason Bershawn Jackson being only 5'8 has just about the same PR in the 400 hurdles as 6'2 Kerron Clement. And Bershawn Jackson on averages takes 15 steps between each hurdle while Kerron Clement takes only 13. This proves that you can run just as fast with a shorter stride length!

Also in the 110 hurdles. People constantly get faster by increasing their frequency and not the stride length. Those guys all run the same amount of steps between each hurdle but someone ends up winning.

Im just trying to show that the shorter guy can run faster with shorter steps. And also the reason you don't have to slow down to take off at 11' with a 43' mid. It is all about turn over speed.

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Re: New Mid Mark Chart

Unread postby rainbowgirl28 » Fri Jan 08, 2010 4:19 pm

VaultPurple wrote:.. really love to hear DJs opinion on this one since my run fits his chart perfectly and you say that is impossiable...

but as far as the short sprinter beating the taller sprinter having to have a longer stride, that is just not always true. For this exact reason Bershawn Jackson being only 5'8 has just about the same PR in the 400 hurdles as 6'2 Kerron Clement. And Bershawn Jackson on averages takes 15 steps between each hurdle while Kerron Clement takes only 13. This proves that you can run just as fast with a shorter stride length!

Also in the 110 hurdles. People constantly get faster by increasing their frequency and not the stride length. Those guys all run the same amount of steps between each hurdle but someone ends up winning.

Im just trying to show that the shorter guy can run faster with shorter steps. And also the reason you don't have to slow down to take off at 11' with a 43' mid. It is all about turn over speed.


Uggh have you ever seen Kerron Clement hurdle? He is all over the place with the number of steps, very inconsistent. If he actually figured out how to hurdle properly/consistently/confidently, he would kill Bershawn Jackson. Remember Clement has the world indoor record in the 400...

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Re: New Mid Mark Chart

Unread postby KYLE ELLIS » Fri Jan 08, 2010 4:28 pm

I am going to invite DJ to answer your question, but can I take a crack at it first??? You are partially right, since our equation for speed is stride length x stride frequency= speed.... The someone with high turnover rate can beat someone with incorrect running form (long slow strides). This would work for hurdles, I am sure Clement is overstriding to get to some hurdles, thus sacrificing frequency which will slow him down. But its the same vise versa, if you sacrifice stride length for frequency then you will also lose speed. An increase in stride frequency should lead to an increase in stride length.

I am not going to say I am absolutely right here, as I have learned my lesson. If two people of different heights ran the same speed with correct running form, then they should cover the same distance in the same amount of time. This is where I am getting at with my chart..

But just because Joe Scmo hit a mid a 59ft and took off at 13'6, doesn't mean he is running 10mps (just as an example).... We could use marks on the runway and timers/ Frames per second to figure out his true velocity.... And we could determine if he is over striding based on how many frames per second it took him to cover that amount of ground... What do you think DJ??
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Re: New Mid Mark Chart

Unread postby kcvault » Fri Jan 08, 2010 6:55 pm


Well your strides should continously get longer until you start accelerating the last 6 strides. Then you are trying to run fast while raising your COG, so your trying to put them down a little quicker. Your strides before the mid are going to fluxuate to all kinds of things!!- Posture, Pole carry, Excitement, Acceleration Patterns, Rang of Motion etc... etc


Yeah I quickly realized after I posted really only the last 4 to 6 step length really matters. I still think everyone is putting to much emphasis on the chart being perfect. Everyone is different and need to determine this stuff on there own not just blindly follow a chart.

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Re: New Mid Mark Chart

Unread postby master » Sat Jan 09, 2010 3:20 am

A few years ago I came across this web site when I was trying to understand a little bit of physics of the vault. It has a couple very simple but effective drawings that may be appropriate for this discussion.

And, as in another recent post, there is a "rest of the story" to be had. ;)

-master

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Re: New Mid Mark Chart

Unread postby Barto » Sat Jan 09, 2010 9:10 am

Stride length has much less to do with leg length and much more to do with force applied to the ground. Keep this in mind when looking at ALL charts.
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Re: New Mid Mark Chart

Unread postby kcvault » Sat Jan 09, 2010 6:57 pm

Here are my numbers for today. I have a 7'8" reach I was holding 14'3" from 5 lefts running from 69ft I hit around a 37 mid taking off at 11'6" Meaning my last 4 steps were about 6'4" inches each and about a 12'9 stride lenth for the last two strides.

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Re: New Mid Mark Chart

Unread postby KYLE ELLIS » Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:50 pm

kcvault wrote:Here are my numbers for today. I have a 7'8" reach I was holding 14'3" from 5 lefts running from 69ft I hit around a 37 mid taking off at 11'6" Meaning my last 4 steps were about 6'4" inches each and about a 12'9 stride lenth for the last two strides.

---Kasey


So the mid was about right, takeoff was under... 37 mid shows taking off at 12'1. So either your were overstriding a bit, or you can carry a longer mid + a higher grip.... What do you think??
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