New Mid Mark Chart

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KYLE ELLIS
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New Mid Mark Chart

Unread postby KYLE ELLIS » Thu Jan 07, 2010 1:46 pm

Link here http://ux1.eiu.edu/~kjellis/ open up the mid mark document. I put 3 different mid points, because I know some people use different ones; also I use shorter ones for short run stuff. I definately use the 6 for longer runs. TO DETERMINE YOUR REACH, TOUCH AS HIGH AS YOU CAN! WHILE STAYING FLAT FOOTED.

Please read my entire post before replying. I have been using DJ's mid mark chart for a while now and I think it is an excellent tool. I am 6ft tall and it worked nearly perfectly for me but it wasn't working for my shorter vaulters. It got me thinking and experimenting with the chart and what I discovered is that the chart worked if you used the athletes optimal takeoff point. After thinking about this more it made more sense to me and seemed very logical.
Here is a link to the new chart I made, find your standing reach and that will determine what column you use. (For example I have a 6ft reach and a 7'10 reach so if I wanted to grip 14ft I can see that I need to takeoff at 11'6, with a mid at 47'6.) There is a lot of numbers and colors, so I would suggest deleting all of the columns that will not apply to you.
I have talked with DJ about the chart and tried explaining why you need to go by takeoff instead of grip to determine ones mid, but to no avail. I'm sure DJ will share his thoughts.
Here are some of the reasons I give that this chart works better than a chart formulated from grip.
1) A 6 ft person gripping 12ft will takeoff almost a foot closer than a 5ft person gripping 12ft, the 6ft person will start with the pole closer to vertical than the 5ft person... So we can determine that the 5ft vaulter will need more force at takeoff to move that grip in; so why would we use the same mid and takeoff for both vaulters??? That seems illogical to me. According to the chart I made their mids will be 4ft different!!!
2) My chart goes along with DJ's Long jump chart, two people taking off from 12ft will need a certain amount of speed to make it into the pit. This is where I am suggesting that height does not play a role. I will use my 6ft and 5ft person example again. If both the 6ft and 5ft person are taking off from 12ft and that is their optimal takeoff point then the SPEED REQUIRED IS THE SAME, TAKEOFF IS THE SAME, the only thing different is that the taller vaulter will be gripping higher.
3) I am also suggesting that speed is the biggest factor in relation to push-off. So how many times have you been at a meet and seen a big tall guy lugging down the runway gripping pretty high, and jumping pretty high even though lacking push-off. Then we see this little guy blazing down the runway but blowing off the top of the pole and jumping the same height even though gripping much lower.... It doesn't mean that the taller guy isn't as efficient technically, he just doesn't have the speed at takeoff to blow off the pole, but he has the reach. Theoretical situation; Scott Huffman and Jeff Hartwig are jumping against each other and both jump 19'6. Jeff is running at 9.7MPS and Scott is running 9.9MPS, who will be gripping higher??? Jeff will. Who is going to push-off more? Scott is. I know that Jeff can probably grip as high or higher from 5lefts than Scott could from 10lefts, and it is not because he is running as fast from 5lefts as Scott is from 10lefts at all!!! SO WE NEED TO THROW SPEED= GRIP OUT!!! AND ADAPT SPEED DETERMINES HOW FAR OUT WE CAN TAKEOFF FROM.
4) Taking the last point If we had a contest to see who would win if we had a competition were everyone had to grip 14ft, the shorter the person the more likely he would be to win... Why?? Because he is going to need more speed to role that grip in than a taller person, and since he has more speed that will aid in his push-off being a lot higher.
5) Last thing, if high school kids were only allowed to grip as high as their speed (mid allowed), then their would be no need for these ridiculous weight rating rules (in my opnion make vaulter more dangerous, by landing short brings the box more into play). Its when kids grip higher than their speed allows that is dangerous, same vise versa; no matter what pole they are jumping on.

Hopefully I have explained it in a way that everyone can understand where I am coming from. It will work better than the old chart, if you are much shorter or taller than 6ft, I guarantee it!! Please leave feed back on what you think.
Last edited by KYLE ELLIS on Fri Jan 08, 2010 3:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: New Mid Mark Chart

Unread postby joebro391 » Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:07 am

all i'm saying...I'm 5'7, and dj's chart says that if i was gripping 14'7, my take-off step would be around 12'...in reality, my take-off step must be around 13'6 - 14' to obtain a free take-off with a 14'6 grip...and i can only grip 12'2 with a straight pole...which limits my grip (contrary to dj's chart), to around 13'9-14'...hopefully i'll defy this rule (and i know it's been discussed that it's just a "guide" but it does make some sense...just my input. -6P
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Re: New Mid Mark Chart

Unread postby VaultPurple » Fri Jan 08, 2010 3:04 am

I think you are looking at a few key points but haven't quite put in all the scientific calculations yet. For instance if I am reading the chart right, since i have about a 6'10 reach (this is not exact but it is in the range of that to 7'... i am short) If I take off from 11' I should be gripping 12'8 with a 46'3 mid. My only problem with that is that if I really gripped 12'8 I could use a 43' mid and still take off around 11' and use that pole just fine.

I still think DJ's chart to go by hand grip because there are so many unknown variables. Plus I am only 5'5 and his works fine for me if I just ignore the take off mark on the chart, which he has mentioned numerous times was only for a reference and changes according to the athlete.

Kyle, your take off to grip is right though, because my normal grip is 13'6 from about a 12' take off. The only difference is that I can do that with a 45'-46' mid. I do not know wher eyou are getting the extra 3 feet from?

The only thing i can think of to explain this is. If you have a 6' vaulter and a 5'6 vaulter both gripping 14' they would share a mid of 47'. The 6' vaulter would take off at 11'4 and the 5'6 vaulter would take off at 12'9. So the 6' vaulter runs 35'8 feet in his last three steps while the 5'6 vaulter runs 34'3. So in all the taller vaulter covers 1.5 feet more than the shorter vaulter. And since the taller vaulter will have a center of mass about 3 inches taller than the shorter vaulter, if they were to run the exact same speed, the taller vaulter would travel slightly farther with each step and therefor need a longer run to achieve the same speed. But then the question comes that the shorter vaulter needs more speed than the taller vaulter not just the same. Well I don't quite know the right way to figure out if running the same speed and being 6 inches taller is a 1.5 difference or not. But because the shorter vaulter has shorter legs he may be able to turn them over and be running even faster than the taller vaulter in that shorter distance.

If both the 6ft and 5ft person are taking off from 12ft and that is their optimal takeoff point then the SPEED REQUIRED IS THE SAME, POLE ANGLE IS THE SAME, TAKEOFF IS THE SAME, the only thing different is that the taller vaulter will be gripping higher.


This is the only real flaw I saw in your wording. Because if a guy with a 7' reach stands beside a guy with a 8 foot reach and they both stand at 12' and grip on a pole, the taller guy will be gripping higher and he will have a much greater angle with the ground and pole. So with them both taking off at 12' the taller vaulter has a greater pole angle and will probably not need to run as fast for a certain take off point as the shorter vaulter.

Are either charts perfect? NO.

Would I kill myself by overstriding if I tried to use a 49' mid with a 13'6 grip? Most likely... so my vote goes with the old chart right now

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Re: New Mid Mark Chart

Unread postby kcvault » Fri Jan 08, 2010 3:16 am

The reason for the chart is more to figure out stride lenth to see weather or not you overstriding forget about the take off point just go by the mid mark. I my exsperince people who have the same mid marks usually jump around the same height assuming there tecknique is simuler. Also the chart helps to prevent overgripping which is one of the biggest problems in pole vaulting. However I would not worry to much about it being perfect. Always catch your mid and see about where your take off is dependent on where your mid is. When you have a good idea of your perfect mid for each run just catch your mid this will allow you to know weather or not you are overstriding since if you usually hit 39 and take off at 12 and you hit 39 and take off at 9 don't move your step back just get your feet down. It will also allow you to catch a accurate step even when you run through. I know at the beginning of the year my long run mid is about 39 by the end of the year it around 40'6-41. It gets further out as you jump higher. I know the 6 step mid is sopposedly better but Either way a mid is just way better then catching a take off step.

---Kasey

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Re: New Mid Mark Chart

Unread postby KYLE ELLIS » Fri Jan 08, 2010 12:55 pm

I think you are looking at a few key points but haven't quite put in all the scientific calculations yet. For instance if I am reading the chart right, since i have about a 6'10 reach (this is not exact but it is in the range of that to 7'... i am short) If I take off from 11' I should be gripping 12'8 with a 46'3 mid. My only problem with that is that if I really gripped 12'8 I could use a 43' mid and still take off around 11' and use that pole just fine.


First of all, the reach is based on how high you can touch while still standing flat footed, secondly if you can take off at 11' with a 43 mid that means nothing! Except that you slowing down, chopping, or steering to take-off from there.

Kyle, your take off to grip is right though, because my normal grip is 13'6 from about a 12' take off. The only difference is that I can do that with a 45'-46' mid. I do not know wher eyou are getting the extra 3 feet from?


Same as before, that means you are probably slowing down and steering.

The only thing i can think of to explain this is. If you have a 6' vaulter and a 5'6 vaulter both gripping 14' they would share a mid of 47'. The 6' vaulter would take off at 11'4 and the 5'6 vaulter would take off at 12'9. So the 6' vaulter runs 35'8 feet in his last three steps while the 5'6 vaulter runs 34'3.


Vault Purple these statements show me that you don't even understand DJ's chart, so it frustrates me that you are disputing me when you don't even understand the basic pronciples of DJ's chart. Basically what you are saying is that a taller vaulter would cover more ground which means he would need to run faster than the shorter vaulter to move the same grip in?? Lol. Even DJ would tell you that you are very wrong here.
Stride lengthx stride frequency= speed, height of a person is not factor.

So in all the taller vaulter covers 1.5 feet more than the shorter vaulter. And since the taller vaulter will have a center of mass about 3 inches taller than the shorter vaulter, if they were to run the exact same speed, the taller vaulter would travel slightly farther with each step and therefor need a longer run to achieve the same speed.


So vault Purple if a 6ft guy and a 5ft guy raced raced in the 100m, and according to you they ran the "same speed".. Then also according to you the taller guy would win because of something you pulled out of your behind about his mass being 3" higher?? If a 6ft guy and 5ft guy raced and ran the same speed they would finish at the same time! Please understand this.

If both the 6ft and 5ft person are taking off from 12ft and that is their optimal takeoff point then the SPEED REQUIRED IS THE SAME, POLE ANGLE IS THE SAME, TAKEOFF IS THE SAME, the only thing different is that the taller vaulter will be gripping higher.
Last edited by KYLE ELLIS on Fri Jan 08, 2010 4:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New Mid Mark Chart

Unread postby KYLE ELLIS » Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:09 pm

kcvault wrote:The reason for the chart is more to figure out stride lenth to see weather or not you overstriding forget about the take off point just go by the mid mark. I my exsperince people who have the same mid marks usually jump around the same height assuming there tecknique is simuler. Also the chart helps to prevent overgripping which is one of the biggest problems in pole vaulting. However I would not worry to much about it being perfect. Always catch your mid and see about where your take off is dependent on where your mid is. When you have a good idea of your perfect mid for each run just catch your mid this will allow you to know weather or not you are overstriding since if you usually hit 39 and take off at 12 and you hit 39 and take off at 9 don't move your step back just get your feet down. It will also allow you to catch a accurate step even when you run through. I know at the beginning of the year my long run mid is about 39 by the end of the year it around 40'6-41. It gets further out as you jump higher. I know the 6 step mid is sopposedly better but Either way a mid is just way better then catching a take off step.


KC I would semi agree with you here. But if you use this chart I would say you have about a 6inch grey area to hit within, but if you are under on your mid I garuntee you will be under at takeoff; unless you slow down... I think it is possible that in a meet situation you are running faster than expected gripping at x, so you might need to move your mid back 4-6 inches, but you could also take this as a sign that you are running fast enough to increase your grip and move your mid back.... KC do me a favor, try out my chart for your reach at your next practice. Don't even catch your step at takeoff just film it. Try and be on or 3 inches out on your mid and see what happens... I think this chart goes into more detail and is far more accurate, and you can bet that if you are withing 3-4 inches of your mid, you will be close at takeoff!!
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Re: New Mid Mark Chart

Unread postby KYLE ELLIS » Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:17 pm

One more thing I would like to state that I am not trying to take anything away from DJ, he is the one who came up with this mid-mark chart even the one I am presenting to you..... All i did was adjust it to be able to accomidate different sizes of vaulters, everything else is the same, same principles same everything except I argue that you should go by takeoff and not grip to determine where your mid should be. I think DJ's chart is very innovative and a great tool, I am just trying to make it better... And hopefully I can make a good enough point to get DJ on boar with what I am saying :D

Vault Purple made my point for me, If a short vaulter and tall vaulter gripped the same, used the same mid, and were running the same speed, then one of them is either going to takeoff a foot under or a foot out!! Here in lies the problem of the old chart.

Remember stride length *stride frequency= speed.....
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Re: New Mid Mark Chart

Unread postby kcvault » Fri Jan 08, 2010 2:56 pm

I think the mids on you chart will probably be pretty close, but I am not sure I agree with stride length. How come the stride length is so big for the shorter vaulters. I am not short but my reach is 7'8 in order for me to grip 14 ft from five lefts according to your chart I would have to run from 72 I hit a 12 ft take off running from 69'6 I will tell you how close the rest of the chart is for me tomorrow.

---Kasey

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Re: New Mid Mark Chart

Unread postby VaultPurple » Fri Jan 08, 2010 3:00 pm

KYLE ELLIS wrote:
I think you are looking at a few key points but haven't quite put in all the scientific calculations yet. For instance if I am reading the chart right, since i have about a 6'10 reach (this is not exact but it is in the range of that to 7'... i am short) If I take off from 11' I should be gripping 12'8 with a 46'3 mid. My only problem with that is that if I really gripped 12'8 I could use a 43' mid and still take off around 11' and use that pole just fine.


First of all, the reach is based on how high you can touch while still standing flat footed, secondly if you can take off at 11' with a 43 mid that means nothing! Except that you slowing down, chopping, or steering to take-off from there.

Kyle, your take off to grip is right though, because my normal grip is 13'6 from about a 12' take off. The only difference is that I can do that with a 45'-46' mid. I do not know wher eyou are getting the extra 3 feet from?


Same as before, that means you are probably slowing down and steering.

The only thing i can think of to explain this is. If you have a 6' vaulter and a 5'6 vaulter both gripping 14' they would share a mid of 47'. The 6' vaulter would take off at 11'4 and the 5'6 vaulter would take off at 12'9. So the 6' vaulter runs 35'8 feet in his last three steps while the 5'6 vaulter runs 34'3.


Vault Purple these statements show me that you don't even understand DJ's chart, so it frustrates me that you are disputing me when you don't even understand the basic pronciples of DJ's chart. Basically what you are saying is that a taller vaulter would cover more ground which means he would need to run faster than the shorter vaulter to move the same grip in?? Lol. Even DJ would tell you that you are very wrong here.
Stride lengthx stride frequency= speed, height of a person is not factor.

So in all the taller vaulter covers 1.5 feet more than the shorter vaulter. And since the taller vaulter will have a center of mass about 3 inches taller than the shorter vaulter, if they were to run the exact same speed, the taller vaulter would travel slightly farther with each step and therefor need a longer run to achieve the same speed.


So vault Purple if a 6ft guy and a 5ft guy raced raced in the 100m, and according to you they ran the "same speed".. Then also according to you the taller guy would win because of something you pulled out of your behind about his mass being 3" higher?? If a 6ft guy and 5ft guy raced and ran the same speed they would finish at the same time! Please understand this.

If both the 6ft and 5ft person are taking off from 12ft and that is their optimal takeoff point then the SPEED REQUIRED IS THE SAME, POLE ANGLE IS THE SAME, TAKEOFF IS THE SAME, the only thing different is that the taller vaulter will be gripping higher.


This is the only real flaw I saw in your wording. Because if a guy with a 7' reach stands beside a guy with a 8 foot reach and they both stand at 12' and grip on a pole, the taller guy will be gripping higher and he will have a much greater angle with the ground and pole. So with them both taking off at 12' the taller vaulter has a greater pole angle and will probably not need to run as fast for a certain take off point as the shorter vaulter.


Once again no... LAET ME EXPLAIN. As you grip higher and higher your pole starts further and further away from vertical. So if a taller vaulter and shorter vaulter both stood at 12ft and gripped appropriately, they taller guy would grip higher but the pole angle would remain the same with both. Just to use an example we will say that the pole for both started at 33 degrees, they need they same speed to move that pole to 90 degrees, even though the taller vaulter is gripping higher. Hopefully you understand a little bit better.



Dont make me break out the diagrams...

So vault Purple if a 6ft guy and a 5ft guy raced raced in the 100m, and according to you they ran the "same speed".. Then also according to you the taller guy would win because of something you pulled out of your behind about his mass being 3" higher?? If a 6ft guy and 5ft guy raced and ran the same speed they would finish at the same time! Please understand this.


No by the basic laws of physics if a 5' tall guy raced a 6' tall guy in the 100m dash and they both averaged 10m/s over the entire 100meters, they would finish at the exact same time, but the 6' guy would take less steps. Ever watch 5'5 Trindon Holliday race against the 6'5 guys in the 100?

Do not bash my understanding of the chart when you obliviously haven't figured out how it works since you are adding extra feet onto a chart that has worked for girls and guys of all heights... Maybe just not anyone you have worked with.

All of my statements hold true if DJ's chart is true.

The only thing i can think of to explain this is. If you have a 6' vaulter and a 5'6 vaulter both gripping 14' they would share a mid of 47'. The 6' vaulter would take off at 11'4 and the 5'6 vaulter would take off at 12'9. So the 6' vaulter runs 35'8 feet in his last three steps while the 5'6 vaulter runs 34'3.


Vault Purple these statements show me that you don't even understand DJ's chart, so it frustrates me that you are disputing me when you don't even understand the basic pronciples of DJ's chart. Basically what you are saying is that a taller vaulter would cover more ground which means he would need to run faster than the shorter vaulter to move the same grip in?? Lol. Even DJ would tell you that you are very wrong here.
Stride lengthx stride frequency= speed, height of a person is not factor.


I really do not understand how this shows I do not understand the chart anyway... It is a 100% true statement if you follow DJ's chart and just ignore the take off marks he has on it (which he says to ignore if you are not 6' tall)

I never said the taller vaulter had to run faster to cover that much more ground. I said that at the same speed in 3 steps, he will cover more ground. If you time those last 3 steps they will probably take longer to complete than the shorter guys 3 lefts. Say the short guy covers 34.25 feet in 1.2 seconds, then for the taller guy to be running the same speed he would have to cover the 35.66 feet in 1.249 seconds.

And as far as your assumption that I slow down and chop to hit those mids... you are extremely mistaken. My mids line up almost perfectly wing DJ's chart. So if If there is no way for me to hit those marks without slowing down or chopping than you are just straight up saying that DJ's chart is wrong.

I understand DJ's chart and I understand how he explains it to work. I do not 100% agree with the reasons that he thinks it works, but I do agree 100% that it does work.

And here is why the take off angle is clearly not the same when two athletes of different heights take off from the same point

Image

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Re: New Mid Mark Chart

Unread postby KYLE ELLIS » Fri Jan 08, 2010 3:23 pm

kcvault wrote:I think the mids on you chart will probably be pretty close, but I am not sure I agree with stride length. How come the stride length is so big for the shorter vaulters. I am not short but my reach is 7'8 in order for me to grip 14 ft from five lefts according to your chart I would have to run from 72 I hit a 12 ft take off running from 69'6 I will tell you how close the rest of the chart is for me tomorrow.

---Kasey


NO NO NO NO!!!!! Don't use the stride length to determine your run.... Just use the mid. Your beginning strides are slower (thus shorter) you should be accelerating to full speed at the end of the run, so these strides will be much longer and stride frequency should be increasing.
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Re: New Mid Mark Chart

Unread postby kcvault » Fri Jan 08, 2010 3:29 pm

Ok but if you could figure out average stride length it would be less confusing. Though I dont think it's super important. I do think the mids are important though and I will tell you what mine are tomorrow. And I will tell you my stride length into the last 4 steps as well as average stride length.

__Kasey

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Re: New Mid Mark Chart

Unread postby KYLE ELLIS » Fri Jan 08, 2010 3:44 pm

kcvault wrote:Ok but if you could figure out average stride length it would be less confusing. Though I dont think it's super important. I do think the mids are important though and I will tell you what mine are tomorrow. And I will tell you my stride length into the last 4 steps as well as average stride length.

__Kasey


Well your strides should continously get longer until you start accelerating the last 6 strides. Then you are trying to run fast while raising your COG, so your trying to put them down a little quicker. Your strides before the mid are going to fluxuate to all kinds of things!!- Posture, Pole carry, Excitement, Acceleration Patterns, Rang of Motion etc... etc
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