Elite Technique According to McGinnis

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Re: Elite Technique According to McGinnis

Unread postby vaultman18 » Fri Nov 20, 2009 10:13 am

Barto wrote:Ever think that Peter McGinnis might know more about pole vaulting than Vitaly?


What do you mean by know more? If all your knowledge is incorrect but you know a lot of it, does that mean you know more? I'm not saying McGinnis is wrong I'm just trying to clarify.
Example: I have two friends one has a PhD in mechanical Engineering the other just graduated HS (I think but maybe not). The one with the PhD has vast knowledge of how things work and should work. But when asked to do a simple task such as building a simple box, it looks as though a 3rd grader made it. Now my other friend on the other hand has virtually know education and certainly no higher education. But is able to fabricate almost anything as well as design/invent tools to help him preform his trade. Now if I were getting ready to build something who would I seek advice from???
Now to relate this story.
If I wanted to coach a world record who would I seek advice from???

ADTF Academy wrote:"21. LOWER HAND INITIATES POLE BEND.
This begins at the pole strike and continues only briefly into the follow through phase, until about 0.20 s after takeoff. The
force exerted against the pole by the lower hand greatly reduces the compressive force necessary to bend the pole. Although
the pushing action of the lower hand is instrumental in initiating the pole bend, it also slows down the rotation of the vaulter.
So, the pushing action only occurs for a brief period of time. Shorter vaulters may have to push more than taller vaulters."


I believe this a mistake. It may happen but it shouldn't.

By the way I have no "beef" with Peter McGinnis. I am sure he is a good coach but I really have no idea. But Petrov is the best coach in the world.
Last edited by vaultman18 on Fri Nov 20, 2009 10:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Elite Technique According to McGinnis

Unread postby ADTF Academy » Fri Nov 20, 2009 11:43 am

vaultman18 wrote:
Barto wrote:Ever think that Peter McGinnis might know more about pole vaulting than Vitaly?


Now if I were getting ready to build something who would I seek advice from???
Now to relate this story.
If I wanted to coach a world record who would I seek advice from???

By the way I have no "beef" with Peter McGinnis. I am sure he is a good coach but I really have no idea. But Petrov is the best coach in the world.


Here in lies the issue. What is the difference between a myth and a legend? The home town hero is the guy you have seen operate for years you have seen him in action and have watched what he does and has dazzled you with his skills. The myth is the story everyone talks about, but you have never actually seen it but you believe it because everyone says its true.

Is Petrov a good coach... Yes.... but except for maybe a select few out there, has any of you actually worked with Petrov to know how he coaches? Alan did a great job in BOTH of his books (little plug for you Alan) do demonstrate how good of a coach he is, but nothing beats the real thing. THose books were Alan's interpretation of his model with some of Alan's model thrown in there. I have only meet and talked to Petrov once and it was in regards to the most basic, but important thing in pole vault the carry and plant. The things he was saying I already been coaching before I met him and except for stealing a couple words that I could use to say the same thing I didn't learn anything in my interaction.

Now to answer your question who would I go talk to... the coach that made Issy what she is.... the coach that took her from scratch and made her a WR holder. Find the coach that constantly takes nobodies and makes them studs. Anyone can take a good pole vaulter and keep them as one. Heck college coaches all across America do that every year. The true question is put a coach in a simplistic environment where they have to fend for themselves and are not given everything they need. Will they survive?

With all that being said I appreciate the data and films Peter sends me and I match his data to my own. He has seen a lot of high end pole vault competitions in his days. btw I think Peter has more degrees than Petrov, but I could be wrong on that :)

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Re: Elite Technique According to McGinnis

Unread postby vault3rb0y » Fri Nov 20, 2009 12:13 pm

No arguement from me that petrov is a god among pole vault coaches.

But it would be wrong to say he was given nothing- the most talented athletes of our time work with him. Thats a hell of a template to work from, but i'm not arguing he turns them into a masterpiece! I can't wait to see what he does with his new stud- that young prodigy Raphael Holzdeppe, A friend tells me he is working with him now.
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Re: Elite Technique According to McGinnis

Unread postby KirkB » Fri Nov 20, 2009 4:15 pm

21. LOWER HAND INITIATES POLE BEND. This begins at the pole strike and continues only briefly into the follow through phase, until about 0.20 s after takeoff. ... Shorter vaulters may have to push more than taller vaulters.

This quote can be easily misunderstood by young vaulters. A young vaulter aspiring to become an elite might deduce from this that TALL vaulters MUST push for 0.2 secs, but I'm SHORT, so I MUST push for longer than that!

My fear is that even if there's a hint of truth to this, the additional "push" will be not be proportional to his stature. So if he's only 5-0 instead of 6-0 (a very extreme example), his additional "push" should be maybe 20% longer ... which is 0.22 secs. To even try to distinguish between a 0.20 and a 0.22 sec "push" is ridiculous! So why even say "Shorter vaulters may have to push more than taller vaulters"? :confused:

It's misleading. If the purpose of the paper is only to DESCRIBE common characteristics of elite vaulters (as opposed to PRESCRIBE how to vault), then wouldn't saying something like "Shorter vaulters TEND to push more than taller vaulters" be better than saying "Shorter vaulters MAY HAVE TO push more than taller vaulters"? :confused:

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Re: Elite Technique According to McGinnis

Unread postby Barto » Fri Nov 20, 2009 8:10 pm

vaultman18 wrote:By the way I have no "beef" with Peter McGinnis. I am sure he is a good coach but I really have no idea. But Petrov is the best coach in the world.



Why do you think Petrov is the best coach in the world?
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Re: Elite Technique According to McGinnis

Unread postby vaultman18 » Fri Nov 20, 2009 10:09 pm

Barto wrote:Why do you think Petrov is the best coach in the world?


I must admit I am taking the word of Alan on that. :o

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Re: Elite Technique According to McGinnis

Unread postby vaultman18 » Fri Nov 20, 2009 10:42 pm

ADTF Academy wrote:Now to answer your question who would I go talk to... the coach that made Issy what she is.... the coach that took her from scratch and made her a WR holder.


What about the guy who took Bubka to WR? Who now coaches Issy to new WR's.

ADTF Academy wrote:He has seen a lot of high end pole vault competitions in his days.[/quote

Ha Ha. So have many USATF officials.

ADTF Academy wrote:btw I think Peter has more degrees than Petrov


That was my point exactly. Practical application is the key. And I believe Petrov applies his knowledge of the vault better than most.


The dispute I have is not about McGinnis' ability to coach compared to anybody. I have no idea. I am sure he is very qualified. But I disagree that the pole is bent with the bottom arm. Pushing is a mistake and in the end will limit the potential of the vault. A .20 push doesn't seem very long but it is if you want to jump 6.15+. And the less skilled the vaulter the longer that push will last so the effect will be the same or worse. Honestly I don't care if anyone agrees with me. And why should they I am a nobody.

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Re: Elite Technique According to McGinnis

Unread postby powerplant42 » Fri Nov 20, 2009 11:42 pm

And why should they I am a nobody.


Yet another myth!!! You are a great coach and I'm sure you'll have a few OUTSTANDING elite jumpers in the next 10 years or so! Don't be so hard on yourself. :yes: :heart:

Here's a question. How would you know that any particular coach isn't "the best"? Wouldn't it depend on the criteria upon which you're judging?

So what is the criteria for comparing coaches' abilities? :idea:
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Re: Elite Technique According to McGinnis

Unread postby Robert schmitt » Sat Nov 21, 2009 12:01 am

KirkB wrote:My fear is that even if there's a hint of truth to this, the additional "push" will be not be proportional to his stature. So if he's only 5-0 instead of 6-0 (a very extreme example), his additional "push" should be maybe 20% longer ... which is 0.22 secs. To even try to distinguish between a 0.20 and a 0.22 sec "push" is ridiculous! So why even say "Shorter vaulters may have to push more than taller vaulters"? :confused:

Kirk


I kind of think of it this way shorter vaulters can get away with pushing longer b/c they can accelerate there swing faster to try to catch up with the pole. Rather than haveing to push longer they can just get away with a longer push.
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Re: Elite Technique According to McGinnis

Unread postby VaultPurple » Sat Nov 21, 2009 2:24 am

Example: I have two friends one has a PhD in mechanical Engineering the other just graduated HS (I think but maybe not). The one with the PhD has vast knowledge of how things work and should work. But when asked to do a simple task such as building a simple box, it looks as though a 3rd grader made it. Now my other friend on the other hand has virtually know education and certainly no higher education. But is able to fabricate almost anything as well as design/invent tools to help him preform his trade. Now if I were getting ready to build something who would I seek advice from???


This kind of contradicts any theory that Petrov is best coach in world (not saying hes not). But just because you can make something or do something, does not mean you can tell someone else how to do it. The mechanical engineer can tell you exactly how the box should be made and the dimensions and why you should do everything, just because he himself is not a skilled box maker does not mean he does not know how to make a box, rather he himself can not do it.

And I do not think any coach can be deemed best coach in the world. The best coach for one vaulter is the coach they can relate to best and they adapt to their styles and can understand their terminology. And the reason I also say you can never determine, is because there are so many different factors. Had Petrov never coached Bubka would anyone ever know or even care who he was? Yes he took Bubka from scratch, but he was given one of the worlds greatest athletes. And had he not coached Bubka, would he ever have had any of the other great athletes come to him for coaching. I'm not saying hes not a great coach, because he obviously is, but there are a ton of coaches out there that have just never been given that caliber of an athlete to train, therefore they can not get their name out there. And a lot of people judge how good a coach is based on how good their athletes are, but in many cases great coaches are given already great pole vaulters that no one knows if they would have gotten any better had they chosen a different coach.

Just like teachers in school, there is only one final answer to a math problem, and the best teacher to teach you how to get to that answer, is the one that you can learn from. Everyone has different learning styles.

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Re: Elite Technique According to McGinnis

Unread postby altius » Sun Nov 22, 2009 12:18 am

My belief that Vitaly is still the best (track and field) coach in the world is based on watching him work. Here you have a highly intelligent guy with a degree from Moscow University who has given at least fifty years of his life to this event. The sheer professionalism, intensity, deep knowledge of everything to do with becoming a better pole vaulter along with his love of the event and of pole vaulters, cannot be matched in my view. Ask Giovanni Lanaro his opinion on this.

Peter is a very capable and knowledgeable individual but I suspect that he would be the first to say that compared to Petrov he is an amateur -in the true sense of that word.

I would suggest that anyone who believes that taking a girl who has already set a world record on to greater things is a simple task, has never coached seriously. I know from experience that it is a relatively simple thing to take a reasonably talented girl to 4.40 but I am quite certain it is not an arithmetic progression of difficulty as you move up. 4.60 is probably twice as difficult/ 4.80 four times as difficult, 5.00 eight times as difficult and 5.06 twelve times as difficult - for a whole range of reasons. Vitali does not just keep athletes at a level as one individual implied when they compared him to US college coaches - he helps them develop. Has everybody already forgotten Gibilisco - the winner of the 2003 World Championship -at 5.90M whom he coached from the age of fifteen??

There are many great coaches. We have two in this country alone in Mark Stewart and Alex Parnov, but in my view at the moment, Vitali tops them if only because of his passion.

Just a fact for those who may think Vitali that was a one hit wonder. When I first met him in 1986 in Canberra I innocently asked him what he knew about Australia before he arrived in the country. I fully expected him to tell me about kangaroos and sharks etc but he simply looked at me and told me he had ten boys in his squad jumping higher that our national record - which admittedly was only 5.52 at that time.

You can debate it all you like but I suggest that if your really want to satisfy yourself go to Formia and watch him in action - just dont get in his way!!
Its what you learn after you know it all that counts. John Wooden


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