Missing the pit

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KirkB
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Re: Missing the pit

Unread postby KirkB » Wed Nov 18, 2009 12:02 am

Bel, I see that you found the footage. Where? And why do you fear it might "get shut down"?

I don't have much to add re his technique, other than what Tim said. In fact, I don't even see that ... altho I assume that due to the resulting landing spot. I'm just surprised that he did a full extension. He cleared the bar by a mile ... he didn't even have to extend that hard ... if he knew he was "off". Wierd.

This is a good example of where the DANGER can be determined by an official based on the landing spot rather than based on the "4-foot bar" clearance rule that was proposed by Divalent here ... viewtopic.php?f=47&t=18706. It's hard to tell for sure, but he may very well have been CLOSE to 2 feet of center as he cleared the bar.

Ouch!

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Re: Missing the pit

Unread postby rainbowgirl28 » Wed Nov 18, 2009 3:00 am

altius wrote:But that does not look like a very big pad - I would have thought non regulation by modern standards - certainly by ours.



It looks bigger than half the pits in Europe! That was from the 2004 Olympics, which was after the latest rule changes about pits being bigger. The back is as wide as the outside edge of the standard bases, which I think is the minimum to be legal.

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Re: Missing the pit

Unread postby rainbowgirl28 » Wed Nov 18, 2009 3:01 am

KirkB wrote:Bel, I see that you found the footage. Where? And why do you fear it might "get shut down"?



It's NBC footage, but I wouldn't worry too much about it getting taken down, they seem to be too busy enforcing illegal use of music to worry about old copyrighted footage. They won't take it down unless NBC asks them to.

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Re: Missing the pit

Unread postby Andy_C » Wed Nov 18, 2009 8:02 am

rainbowgirl28 wrote:
altius wrote:But that does not look like a very big pad - I would have thought non regulation by modern standards - certainly by ours.



It looks bigger than half the pits in Europe! That was from the 2004 Olympics, which was after the latest rule changes about pits being bigger. The back is as wide as the outside edge of the standard bases, which I think is the minimum to be legal.


I think it's a DIMA 'International' model which measures 8.00(L)x6.00(W)m (~26x19.5ft) - beyond that I'm not really familiar with DIMA.

By comparison, I believe all UCS and Gill pits are at least 20ft wide (even the smaller high school ones). Just by the look of it if they used the biggest UCS or Gill pits (about 22 feet wide) that would have taken away the majority of that impact on the ground. He probably would have still landed heavily on his lower legs but at least his head and back would have been much better off.

Just out of curiosity, would anybody know the minimum pit size requirement for the Athens Olympics?
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Re: Missing the pit

Unread postby bel142 » Wed Nov 18, 2009 10:52 am

There are a bunch of things I really don't like about that footage.

Anyone have thoughts about head position on take off... a notable vaulter suggested to me when I was young that even if your take off is out of alignment by cocking your head toward the bottom arm/shoulder would be able to counter balance the take off to some degree.

Now that seems like a small amount of movement, however even during pole drop the force of the pole does pull the body to one side. This is footage of a vaulter from a 2005 to better articulate my suggestion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svlwOhW-LK8

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Re: Missing the pit

Unread postby KirkB » Wed Nov 18, 2009 2:44 pm

bel142 wrote: ... a notable vaulter suggested to me when I was young that even if your take off is out of alignment by cocking your head toward the bottom arm/shoulder would be able to counter balance the take off to some degree.

I don't think "cocking your head toward the bottom arm/shoulder" is very good advice. :no:

In fact, it's TERRIBLE advice.

You should be striving for perfection in your alignment, so anything you conciously do other than putting your entire body in balanced alignment isn't solving the problem ... it's just creating a second problem, since cocking your head in that fashion is definitely something you wouldn't normally do if you WERE in alignment. You're better off just fixing the original problem.

bel142 wrote: ... during pole drop the force of the pole does pull the body to one side.

Why does the pole pull the body to one side? Fix THAT problem, instead of letting yourself get out of alighment in the first place. :idea:

HOW to fix that? Well, there's several ways. What I did was to drop the pole "weightlessly" ... but always facing EXACTLY towards the pit ... not to the side at all. Another was to plant "thru" the shoulder, rather than "around" the shoulder. There's many other ways to solve this ... depending on your (or your coach's) analysis of WHY your pole is "pulling the body to one side".

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Re: Missing the pit

Unread postby Robert schmitt » Wed Nov 18, 2009 7:57 pm

Looks like a carbon copy of how I broke my back. Except the pits I was on were smaller. I would have landed on those mats. I knew I was drifting but I just started jumping much higher and didn't know that clearing near the middle third of the crossbar was going to land me off the pit.
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Re: Missing the pit

Unread postby AVC Coach » Wed Nov 18, 2009 8:16 pm

That's some of the most disturbing footage I've ever seen! :confused: I had the same thing happen to me my freshman year in college at a meet in Knoxville at UT. It was my first attempt of the meet and the bar was at 15'06". I did clear the bar though and one of my teammates had to pull a safety pin from between my scapulas (one of the four that was holding my bib number on).

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Re: Missing the pit

Unread postby kcvault » Wed Nov 18, 2009 9:53 pm

I realize the pole rolls past vertical but I think he is holding to high. He did not have enough pole speed and as a result the pole rolled out to the side instead of directly down the middle. I knew a guy a couple of years ago and everyone of his jumps looked exactly like this one except to the other side because he was left handed. His Pr was 5.50 but the only time he cleared it he landed off the pit and knocked himself out. When observing him he always appeared to plant straight and the pole always got to vertical but he would barely make the pit. He was training with me at Jan Johnson house and the only thing Jan had him do was move his grip down a foot. Within a week after two years of not vaulting he was landing in the middle every jump and able to jump 17-6 from 7 lefts. This also happened to me at Cuesta I cleared 17 ft for the first time in practice but landed just like in the video. I came back two days later lowered my grip 4 fingers and was able to make 17 again, and even on a bad plant I would land in the middle of the pit. I am convinced that if you have enough pole speed you will always land near the middle of the pit even with a bad plant. Obviously it is important to keep everything in line but I believe in this video had he had a three inch lower grip he would have been in line at the top and been able to make the jump with no other adjustment except a lower grip. Anyways here are a few videos of Scott Roth doing the same thing as a result of to high a grip. Not to say that is the only thing he is doing wrong but with a lower grip I believe he would have landed a lot closer to the middle of the pit.

http://neovault.com/mem_vv_clovis05_scott_roth17-6.asp
http://neovault.com/mem_vv_clovis05_scott_roth17.asp

---Kasey

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Re: Missing the pit

Unread postby KirkB » Wed Nov 18, 2009 10:12 pm

kcvault wrote: ... it is important to keep everything in line ... Anyways here are a few videos of Scott Roth doing the same thing as a result of too high a grip. Not to say that is the only thing he is doing wrong but with a lower grip I believe he would have landed a lot closer to the middle of the pit.

I can't disagree with what you say KC, since a higher grip, faster run, and stronger swing/extension will ALWAYS accentuate any misalignment. But let me just add this ...

On both Scott's jumps, his takeoff point is on the RIGHT SIDE of the runway ... quite visible on both vids. I can't be sure, but he MIGHT be planting into the left corner of the box. This looks to be the case particularly on his 17-6, but with the camera angle, it's hard to tell for sure. If your takeoff foot is misaligned with the butt of the pole hitting the opposite corner of the box, 2 things will happen ...

1. You're not passing thru the plane between your body and the pole butt. Instead, you're passing to the right of it. He's running in a straight line towards the pit, so that puts him off kilter.

2. If the butt is in the left corner, and if you have a big bend (which Scott does in these vids), then the pole might collide with the top corner of the box ... interfering with the natural bend of the pole.

Either of these problems will cause you to go off course to the right. If BOTH are true, then the problem is COMPOUNDED.

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Re: Missing the pit

Unread postby master » Thu Nov 19, 2009 3:03 am

KirkB wrote:2. If the butt is in the left corner, and if you have a big bend (which Scott does in these vids), then the pole might collide with the top corner of the box ... interfering with the natural bend of the pole.

I sometimes go to the right and when I have had that problem I would video tape from the runway to try to determine the cause. Often (when I went to the right), the pole tip was in the left corner of the box and with a full bend the pole would hit the top corner and I could see my trajectory change. So, do most right handed vaulters consciously attempt to plant the tip on the right side of the box to eliminate the possibility of this?

- master

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Re: Missing the pit

Unread postby kcvault » Thu Nov 19, 2009 1:34 pm

I have only ever planted in the left corner of the box and I am right handed. I would think if your right handed and planted in the right corner of the box it would throw off your swing but I dont know I have never tried it personally.

---Kasey


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