Bottom arm discussion continues...

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Erica
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Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby Erica » Mon May 11, 2009 1:02 am

Food for thought for those who don't think the bottom are does anything...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FnmKVwd ... re=related

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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby KYLE ELLIS » Mon May 11, 2009 1:47 am

I would assume she is talking about after her hands are driven back at the plant. She doesn't apply upward pressure after hitting elastically like Butler talks about in his summit presentation.
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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby KirkB » Mon May 11, 2009 2:48 am

The context of Isi's remarks in this vid ... which you wouldn't know from listening to the vid ... you would only know by following her story leading up to the 2008 Bejing Olympics ... is that Petrov has changed (overhauled!) her technique SIGNIFICANTLY over the past 3 years. This is what she's talking about ...

She says: "... it's not yet 100% change ... "but for example" ... "my left hand now working more than before" ... meaning that in 2008, she's pushing more with her left hand than in 2005.

I heard her plain and clear ... she now uses her left arm more ... "so I can bend more the pole" ... to get on "tougher, longer poles" ... "so I can jump higher".

That's what she SAID (paraphrased only slightly for brevity). That's what her INTENT is now ... and that's what she claims to be a technical improvement in 2008 compared to 2005.

Now, the question is ... is that what Petrov is telling her to do? I would think YES ... since he's her coach and she listens to him.

But I'm completely baffled by this ... because it really goes against the grain of what I would expect Petrov to say about this. :confused:

The focus should NOT be on bending the pole more! The focus should be on improving the SWING! That's the Petrov way ... or so I thought! :confused:

I'd like to explain this away as a misunderstanding due to translation difficulties ... but in the last 10 seconds of the vid ... when she spoke of her intent with her bottom arm ... she spoke perfect English ... and I heard her plain as day. :confused:

... "so I can bend more the pole" ... to get on "tougher, longer poles" ... "so I can jump higher".


Could someone please correct me if I misheard what she said? :confused:

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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby altius » Mon May 11, 2009 6:15 am

BTB2 from Page 238 on -describes exactly what Petrov intends in the take off phase.
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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby vault3rb0y » Mon May 11, 2009 10:10 am

There are different directions to "Push the pole". Just reading the posts before i watched the video, i thought i already had an answer and i am convinced after watching it. She is not talking about pushing the pole up, she is talking about stabilizing it as to not allow her top hand to come too far behind her head. If you dont believe me, watch what she does with her hand as she says "push the pole", it moves forward, not up.

I believe it is "push the pole" as in "stabilizing the pole", and that would also bend the pole more. It is also staying behind the pole and pushing it up and toward vertical, exactly what petrov suggests. I dont think there is a contradiction here, petrov is simply making an adjustment for the most elite of women vaulters.
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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby KYLE ELLIS » Mon May 11, 2009 11:23 am

Watch the the left hand of these examplaes after it is driven back over the top of the head. What happens, maybe this is what she is talking about?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E--DXSx0w7k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJI1ShOfaos
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FILObFtpdVU

Now watch isy's left hand
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPgI_FLy ... re=related

She never applies upward pressure, her left arm stays bent. Isn't this the pull push phase that agapit refers to in his manifesto?
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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby vault3rb0y » Mon May 11, 2009 12:47 pm

I still argue that in the first three videos, very little if any UPWARD pressure is made. The top hand simply moves forward. and as a result, the bottom arm extends. But still, i think that is what petrov is trying to have isi do a little more before the swing.

Also check out her clapformation at :59. We should all strive to be so efficient in our clap-starting ;) .
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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby powerplant42 » Mon May 11, 2009 3:04 pm

Without context, this clip is not much more than something to make us all go crazy... I would bet that the 'punch', 'push', or whatever she's talking about doing with the left hand is BEFORE take-off... A la Reno presentation... :yes:

Remember also that we are listening to the ATHLETE make a TRANSLATION of what her COACH has told her to DO, not the COACH'S ULTIMATE TECHNICAL GOAL. :idea: :yes:
"I run and jump, and then it's arrrrrgh!" -Bubka

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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby KirkB » Mon May 11, 2009 3:46 pm

powerplant42 wrote: ... we are listening to the ATHLETE make a TRANSLATION of what her COACH has told her to DO, not the COACH'S ULTIMATE TECHNICAL GOAL. :idea: :yes:

I hear you PP, but it doesn't explain the fact that she clearly says ...
... "so I can bend more the pole" ... to get on "tougher, longer poles" ... "so I can jump higher".

I do wonder if she's dumbing it down to talk at a level that her interviewer might understand ... and that she doesn't really mean EXACTLY what she says. She does struggle with a few words ... but her INTENT sounds clear to me.

And let's not try to explain it away as Isi not really fully understanding PETROV'S intent. I can understand a HS coach not telling his star athlete EVERY detail (heck, I think Tim even said he does that with Jack) ... but come on ... Isi is the WR holder ... and has been for quite some time. There's no reason for Petrov to dumb it down for Isi. :no:

Also, re Altius saying ...
BTB2 from Page 238 on -describes exactly what Petrov intends in the take off phase.

... I wonder if Petrov has changed his thinking (INTENT) at all re Isi's technique? Clearly, the interview occurred well after BTB2 was printed ... and Isi has learned a lot from Petrov in the past few years! :idea:

Let's not assume that all the wrinkles went out of the Petrov Model once Bubka retired, and Isi is just carbon-copying Bubka. We know that's not true! ;)

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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby powerplant42 » Mon May 11, 2009 3:53 pm

Well, I'm just thinking now that we could think sadistically and say that Petrov had her say that so that others might do it and get beat even worse! ;) (joke...)

I think you make a good point about how she's talking to a reporter/media... It's infinitely easier to say what she said than to explain every detail (as she'd have to to a non vault savvy person). You get what I'm saying, don't you? You see/read it with just about every interview with vaulters...
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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby KYLE ELLIS » Mon May 11, 2009 7:24 pm

vault3rb0y wrote:I still argue that in the first three videos, very little if any UPWARD pressure is made. The top hand simply moves forward. and as a result, the bottom arm extends. But still, i think that is what petrov is trying to have isi do a little more before the swing.

Also check out her clapformation at :59. We should all strive to be so efficient in our clap-starting ;) .


Are you serious? Then why does Isy's bottom arm stay bent when her top hand moves forward? And you really don't see any effort to extend the hands up after hitting elastically??? From my understanding you hit elastically and finish your takeoff you immediately apply upward pressure. Watch the end of David Butler's reno video. At the end when he is taking questions he talks about this. He says after hitting elastically you immediately apply upward pressure and compares it to a hollow position in gymnastics. I am baffled you guys can't see this. How about someone who is an expert on the petrov model throw in their opinin as none of the posters but altius are.

My understanding of the petrov model is that you push your hand up as high as possible before the tip hits, then the tip hits and that drives the hand backwards over the vaulters head because the shoulders are elastic, then you immediately apply upward pressure as you begin to swing. The upward pressure I think has been termed "re-alignment"? Isy clearly doesn't do the 3rd part.
On a whole new level 6-20-09

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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby KYLE ELLIS » Mon May 11, 2009 7:26 pm

KYLE ELLIS wrote:
vault3rb0y wrote:I still argue that in the first three videos, very little if any UPWARD pressure is made. The top hand simply moves forward. and as a result, the bottom arm extends. But still, i think that is what petrov is trying to have isi do a little more before the swing.

Also check out her clapformation at :59. We should all strive to be so efficient in our clap-starting ;) .


Are you serious? Then why does Isy's bottom arm stay bent when her top hand moves forward? And you really don't see any effort to extend the hands up after hitting elastically??? From my understanding you hit elastically and finish your takeoff you immediately apply upward pressure. Watch the end of David Butler's reno video. At the end when he is taking questions he talks about this. He says after hitting elastically you immediately apply upward pressure and compares it to a hollow position in gymnastics. I am baffled you guys can't see this. How about someone who is an expert on the petrov model throw in their opinin as none of the posters but altius are.

My understanding of the petrov model is that you push your hand up as high as possible before the tip hits, then the tip hits and that drives the hand backwards over the vaulters head because the shoulders are elastic, then you immediately apply upward pressure as you begin to swing. The upward pressure I think has been termed "re-alignment"? Isy clearly doesn't do the 3rd part.


And when you re-align the pole bends more and the rotation is accelerated. Please correct me if I am wrong..
On a whole new level 6-20-09


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