Bottom arm discussion continues...

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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby PVDaddy » Mon Jul 26, 2010 10:37 pm

Altius, I never called anyone a dumb bunny, sorry to hear I make you feel that way about yourself although you have let the American coaches know that they are basically in the dark ages while at the same time trying to promote your book. You might want to develope a better marketing strategy? :idea: ;)
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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby altius » Tue Jul 27, 2010 12:44 am

Of course you did not say I was a dumb bunny but you implied that we should all bow to your superior wisdom - because the rest of us clearly we did not understand the event.

Appreciate your advice - it is clear that my sales strategy did not work with you. However despite this the book is selling well all over the world and especially in the USA. There are many folk out there who understand that although reflecting on your own experience is a good way to learn anything, it is often worthwhile short circuiting that process by learning from the experiences of others.

Finally you can repeat the old saw that I have no respect for American coaches until you are long in the tooth but you are wrong - as my many coaching friends in the US can testify.

But I wish you joy in your unhappiness.
Its what you learn after you know it all that counts. John Wooden

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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby PVstudent » Tue Jul 27, 2010 12:25 pm

PV Daddy, consider the following thought.

Suppose we consider two instances at take-off.

Instant one, the pole tip is in contact with the bottom rear edge of the planting box and the vaulter's takeoff foot toes are about to break contact with the ground both arms are extended upward. The vaulter at this instant is not suspended from the pole. Can he/she push upward due to ground contact still existing?

Instant two same conditions as in instant 1 except that the vaulter's takeoff foot has broken contact with the ground. The vaulter has now become suspended below the pole because the vaulter's body is no longer in direct contact with the takeoff surface. Can he / she push upward,at this instant, and accelerate the pole towards the vertical? Remember that the total system pole and vaulter will have maximum takeoff momentum at about the time of instant 1.

If your answer to the situation at instant 2 is yes the vaulter can push upwards could you explain how and why this is possible?
Consider also that at this instant the vaulter has not yet commenced the swing that follows the takeoff!
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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby PVDaddy » Tue Jul 27, 2010 9:03 pm

PV Student: I will probably get slammed by Kirk and Altius for attempting to answer your question on here because it is evident to me that they do not feel you can have advanced Knowlege of the pole vault without having been a great pole Vaulter or without having coached world class vaulters first, but, I will do my best, based on my limited abillity. Sorry if my comment has made you feel like I am dragging you into this rediculous situation. It is not my intent and you are not. Under these circumstances I felt I needed to begin with this preface. Also please forgive my spelling errors in advance and any grammatical errors as Grammer is not my strong suit and I have not learned to use spell checker on here yet.
These are both very important and excellent questions and get to the very heart of my theory involving the benefit of continuing to reach up and maintain the stretch right up to point of Whip.

Before I answer it, stand up and reach up (stretch) to the ceiling with both hands as hard as you can while looking at them. Feel the stretch in your shoulder girdles? Now relax while still looking at your hands. What happened to them? Did they move? How much? Enough? What direction? What about your shoulder girdle? Did it Move? Could you feel it? What direction? You will have the same reaction even if one of your elbows is slightly bent. Now imagine you were holding a pole in your hand while you were stretching up and relaxed that stretch. Would that move the pole toward vertical or away from vertical (notice I learned how to spell vertical? LOL)? The goal in vaulting is to continue to move the pole toward vertical right up to push off. Also, would the relaxation of the stretch create a passive action (one that does not add to or takes energy out of the vault) or an active action (maintains or adds energy to the vault). Remember in pole vaulting we are trying to eliminate all passive actions and try to perform only active actions. The vault should be seemless from beginning to end.

Your first question:
Instant one, the pole tip is in contact with the bottom rear edge of the planting box and the vaulter's takeoff foot toes are about to break contact with the ground both arms are extended upward. The vaulter at this instant is not suspended from the pole. Can he/she push upward due to ground contact still existing?


Would it be easier or harder for your toes to break contact from the ground if the tip of the pole was very slightly in front of (lets say one inch) the back of the box and you were not imparting a load ( this causes the pole to bend) on the pole? Remember the pole is is pressing back against you if it is against the back of the box as you take off.

Would it be easier or harder for you to to extend both arms upward if the tip of the pole was very slightly in front of (lets say one inch) the back of the box and you were not imparting a load ( this causes the pole to bend) on the pole? Remember the pole is is pressing back against you if it is against the back of the box as you take off.

If your answer is easier then you are a fan of (which I am) what is referred to as a "free take-off!"
I believe every vaulter should shoot for (although it is not always easy to achieve) it and of course it requires you to take off very slightly (lets say one inch) out.

The second part of your first question was hopefully answered with the demonstration I had you perform and the questions I had you answer. Yes it is not only possible but very impotant to continue reaching upward to maintain that stretch. Of course once you have stretched to maximum, you can't stretch any more! But what happened to your arms when you quit? They pulled down and you never even had to try! This is exactly what happens after maximum stretch from inverted-C (physics takes over) and you begin a lat pull, you are able to pull at a much more excellerated rate then if you had not maintained that stretch at exactly the right time!

Question 2:
Instant two same conditions as in instant 1 except that the vaulter's takeoff foot has broken contact with the ground. The vaulter has now become suspended below the pole because the vaulter's body is no longer in direct contact with the takeoff surface. Can he / she push upward,at this instant, and accelerate the pole towards the vertical? Remember that the total system pole and vaulter will have maximum takeoff momentum at about the time of instant 1.


Yes it is not only possible but very impotant to continue reaching upward to maintain that stretch. Of course once you have stretched to maximum, you can't stretch any more! But what happened to your arms when you quit?

These are both classic examples of were the vaulters intentions are not demonstated by much physical evidence but I believe that it is the intention (Continue reaching skyward to maintain that stretch) that is important. I have never seen this illustrated anywere the way that I have just done. Thank you for allowing me to present one of my theories. I believe this is what Bubka meant when he said; "I reach for the sky and continue to reach for the sky."
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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby PVDaddy » Tue Jul 27, 2010 10:14 pm

Altius said:" Of course you did not say I was a dumb bunny but you implied that we should all bow to your superior wisdom - because the rest of us clearly we did not understand the event. "

LOL This is Funny! I never implied that EVER! All I ever did was state my opinion about PV technique on here! And all you ever did is say that I should not, because I was not up to your almighty standards! How about making some valid contributions :idea: (geesh you wrote a book about Pole vaulting for crying out loud!) instead of telling everyone how great you are and to buy your book, and how everyone else, including most American Coaches, are beneath you.! If me making post on here make you feel like a dumb bunny, tough toenails go see a psychiatrist!

Altius said: I hope you find joy in your unhappyness.

I think thats called a contradiction in terms? Are you sure that doesn't apply to you?
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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby altius » Tue Jul 27, 2010 11:18 pm

"How about making some valid contributions". Just another example of your ignorance. But then ignorance is bliss.

Just check back through the 1400 plus posts I have made on PVP and you will discover that I have already contributed to the debate on all of the issues you are raising - raising as if they had never been discussed before you became an expert. For example the vexed question of whether the left arm should pull or push was dealt with a few months ago. But that is one of the problems with pvp - newcomers turn up and have no idea of what has been dealt with even the week before they discovered this great resource. But there are only so many times that one can deal with the same topic - which is why you will find little of my stuff in the last few months. Even Kirk is going to run out of steam and or patience before long. Take the time to review - you might learn something.

In fact if you did bother to read the book you will find these issues all dealt with there - as indeed many - including the free take off - were dealt with in the original book published over ten years ago.
Its what you learn after you know it all that counts. John Wooden

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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby KirkB » Wed Jul 28, 2010 12:26 am

PVstudent wrote: Suppose we consider two instances at take-off. ...

In the first instance, the vaulter can "push upward due to ground contact still existing" ... and that will bend the pole more. It's not advisable (in the Petrov Model) ... but it's possible.

In the second instance ... between the time the vaulter leaves the ground and the time he begins his downswing ... it is impossible to accelerate the pole towards vertical. That's because there's nothing to push against ... nor is there any mid-air body action that will cause the pole to move towards vertical. On the contrary, any attempt to push with the bottom arm will have the negative effect of slowing down the speed of the pole as it moves towards vertical.

Remembering that it's the CHORD of the pole that rotates to vertical, I considered the possibility that a deliberate push with the bottom arm will cause the pole to bend more (this is a fact) ... which in turn will shorten the chord ... which in turn MIGHT allow the pole to rotate more quickly towards vertical.

However, I have rejected that idea on the basis that this bottom arm pressure will delay the swing ... which in turn will SLOW down the pole's rotation. So much so ... IMHO ... that your chances of stalling are greater with the push than without the push.

In my personal vaulting experience, on ALL of my good vaults (free takeoff, etc), I NEVER intentionally pushed with the bottom arm, and I ALWAYS had plenty of pole rotation to land safely in the pit. YES, you should "PUSH AND SQUEEZE" with the top arm, but NO, you should not do ANYTHING that delays the rotation of the pole ... if even in the slightest.

There's a BETTER way to improve the rotation of the pole to vertical. You should JUMP vigorously on takeoff ... so much so that you're actually taking some (just a little) pressure OFF the pole ... and bending it LESS! :idea:

Again, I realize that I take an extreme view on this "to push or not to push with the bottom arm" question. I respect the views of other elite coaches and athletes that believe that a slight push is OK ... or even desirable. Heck, I'm outnumbered! ;)

However, I stand my ground on this ... and I remain unconvinced that even a SLIGHT push is a good push. I believe that physics is on my side of this debate.

Kirk
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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby KirkB » Wed Jul 28, 2010 12:29 am

altius wrote: Even Kirk is going to run out of steam and or patience before long. Take the time to review - you might learn something.

Since July 19, I have responded to 4 of Daddy's posts on this thread ... and countless other replies on other threads. He's posted 30 times so far, and I have probably replied to over half of them ... more than most PVP vets (except for you, Altius), I think. 10 of his 30 posts have been on this ADVANCED TECHNIQUE thread. [sigh] In each of my replies, I have tried to enlighten him and reason with him in what I thought was a tactful, respectful manner ... but to no avail. I admit that I was a little short with him in my last post, but my patience had worn thin by then.

I have all the patience in the world for newbies. However, I have very little patience for know-it-all newbies. Yes, as I alluded to in my last post on this thread, my patience has worn thin, and I have run out of steam in trying to be the voice of reason to Daddy. I can't waste my time replying to him any longer ... I see now that there's no point in trying to reason with him. [sigh]

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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby PVDaddy » Wed Jul 28, 2010 1:11 am

PVstudent:
Just to be crystal clear I have never been an advocate of intentionally trying to bend the pole by pushing with the bottom hand at take off. I believe your hands should already be completely extended up and in the proper position with bottom elbow slightly bent by the time your mass and acceleration imparts a load through them to the pole and causes it to bend. Unlike Kirk I agree with the majority that the bottom hand does exert a slight pressure to the pole which does contribute to some of the bend, but that most of the bend is caused by the top hand. Also unlike Kirk I do not believe that bent elbow inhibits the swing in anyway in fact the bent elbow opens up the window for the swing.
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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby KirkB » Wed Jul 28, 2010 9:50 pm

PVDaddy wrote: Unlike Kirk I agree with the majority that the bottom hand does exert a slight pressure to the pole which does contribute to some of the bend, but that most of the bend is caused by the top hand.

This is correct.

PVDaddy wrote: Also unlike Kirk I do not believe that bent elbow inhibits the swing in anyway in fact the bent elbow opens up the window for the swing.

This is incorrect. Daddy, I would appreciate it if you didn't TRY speak on my behalf, as if you even understand what my opinion or technique is. You are nowhere close! Leave me out of your ideas and theories, as once again you have proven that you have no clue, and all you do is muddy the waters! :no:

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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby PVDaddy » Thu Jul 29, 2010 12:09 am

I said:" Also unlike Kirk I do not believe that bent elbow inhibits the swing in anyway in fact the bent elbow opens up the window for the swing. "

PVstudent: The point that I am making is that I do not believe that one should discontinue reaching (Reach for the sky as Woody would say in Buzz light year) continuously and stretch from the top of the hand to the swing leg toe and allow that stretch to naturally occur in both shoulder girdles so that not only will your lats be stretched, but, both shoulder girdles will also be stretched as your mass is loading the pole. Even if the bottom bent arm is causing the pole to bend just a slight bit forward and to the left (the window has opened allowing more room for the body to swing past the right side of the pole). The slightly bent left elbow also makes sure that most of the load on the pole occurs form the top hand and it is easier to swing with a bent bottom arm elbow. Because both arms are extended upward the load occurs naturally without the need to push. You can't push, you are already extended! The pull will occur Immediately (It has to the shoulders girdle and lats are stretched so they naturally recoil) beginning with the top arm (because it is stretched more) and then immediatley assisted by the left at precisely the right time (Your whole body is elastic in the fully inverted-C) at a much more accelerated rate then if they were not stretched. I would refer to this as an active stretch because it contibutes to the speed of the swing adding energy into the vaulter system. I dont believe that the small amount of push on the pole with the bottom hand that occurs naturally is a bad thing especially when one conciders the benefits of the recoiling shoulder and lats. The swing then becomes seamless with the chest forward (The body wants to go in that direction as it meets the pole), the recoiling swing leg and the natural pull that occurs fromthe recoiling lats and shoulder girdles. I cannot see how the little natural push from the bottom hand has limited the swing in any fasion but I can see how it helps by opening up the window.
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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby tsorenson » Thu Jul 29, 2010 1:07 pm

PV Student, I love how you chime in with thoughtful posts when the bottom arm discussion turns ugly, as it usually does on PVP. :yes:
Thank you for pointing out that everything depends on your takeoff point. I have rebuilt my technique over the last two years and can say from experience that the vault feels very different when you take off "under" vs. "on" vs. "out". I prefer "on". When you are way under you would not be able to press up through the takeoff, you would be ripped off the ground...however your bottom arm would feel a lot of resistance and push hard to keep you from slamming into the pole. When you are "on" or "out", it is especially important to extend up and through the takeoff, but there won't be much, if any, resistance.

PV Daddy,
Studying film of Bubka and other elite vaulters is very helpful, but sometimes what you see isn't necessarily what they are trying to do. Looks can be deceiving, and knowing a vaulter's intent is just as important as studying film. Most of what you are saying is correct, but there are a few things that I respectfully disagree with.

I think it is a mistake to say that you "pull with the top arm, followed by the bottom arm". Pretty much all the accepted pole vault "models" agree that the top arm should stay long and extended until the end of the swing and even beyond. Suggesting that vaulters pull with the top arm at all is a mistake, in my experience, as it simultaneously kills pole speed and shortens the swing radius. There is a strong "re-engagement of the shoulders" that starts the swing together with the whip of the trail leg, but I wouldn't call it a "pull." Most young vaulters pull with both arms as an instinct ("hug mommy", as David Butler calls it), and as a coach you should encourage them to avoid this. Pulling with the bottom arm is certainly a reality, although many disagree as to when and how this pull should be done. I prefer to teach my vaulters to swing on a stiff pole, rings, highbar, and rope; and their body will figure out the complex motion of the arms and shoulders without having to explain it in words.

The bent bottom arm should not be something that is attempted at takeoff; rather it is the result of the body's mass and velocity being transferred to the pole from the bottom arm being extended upward at takeoff. Some vaulters achieve this position by not fully extending upward at takeoff (my friend Dan U. calls this "preloading the bottom arm"), and I believe this is a mistake. Some would disagree, and you can certainly vault high this way, but it is not ideal in my opinion as it costs you grip height and pole speed if you don't truly "finish the takeoff". Either way you achieve the bent bottom arm position, it is very important to push or press it back out as your swing rips past the chord of the pole, as this lengthens the swing and rolls the pole over nicely. Again, some might disagree, but I believe this is what Hooker is talking about when he says "I try to hit the bottom arm hard as I swing to inversion".

I think it will be useful for you to listen to Petrov's speech, if you haven't already, from Reno a few years back. It is long and difficult to understand at times, but at 52:00 he nicely summarizes what Bubka, Isinbayeva, and Petrov's other vaulters are trying to achieve with the bottom arm. This speech happens to agree with what Bubka stated about pressing up at takeoff and/or "growing" through the plant with both arms.

However, you will also hear that when the technique discussion turns to Isi's bottom arm, Petrov states that the bent arm at the plant is somewhat undesirable, but is a result of a lower grip (than Bubka's 5.10 grip).

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 8931901117

Cheers,
Tom


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