Bottom arm discussion continues...

This is a forum to discuss advanced pole vaulting techniques. If you are in high school you should probably not be posting or replying to topics here, but do read and learn.
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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby Polevaulter2012 » Thu May 06, 2010 2:20 pm

IAmTheWalrus wrote:Do you really think this video hasn't been posted on PvP before?

Did I say that it hasn't? Maybe you guys should listen to the video instead of ignoring the facts.
Tom I think it is funny how people say they follow the Petrov model but in the Petrov Model you dont vault with one arm. Maybe they are following the Kirk-Launders Model. :yes:

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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby altius » Thu May 06, 2010 7:40 pm

"Maybe they are following the Kirk-Launders Model." Before you make these sort of comments you should at least read BTB p240 what also I have written on this topic here. You might also note that at the beginning of his presentation Vitali thanks me for promulgating HIS ideas - why would he do that if I were presenting my own - if they were different from his? But dont let the facts get in the the way of of YOUR opinion..

You may also note - if you bother to read BTB page 156 - that I do not recommend the one arm drill and have never used it . In fact if you go back through my posts on this topic you will find I have suggested that it not be used. Why? Because I have said that the movements and action of the left arm are critical in the plant and take off and therefore should always stay in contact with the pole in drills to reemphasise this element of technique. In the debate that went on earlier I quoted Petrov - who in answer to a direct question from me - because I had just had a serious argument with an elite US coach at Reno - said If you do not vault with one arm why would you do drills with one arm. But again dont let these facts change your opinions -i know they must keep you happy. Oh and you might at least get my name right!
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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby KirkB » Fri May 07, 2010 2:10 am

Polevaulter2012 wrote: ... Maybe they are following the Kirk-Launders Model. :yes:

While I'm flattered that you have put me in the same sentence as Alan Launder, we do not agree 100% on the Petrov Model ... and that's OK.

To put it bluntly, my Bryde Bend Model ... if you want to call it that ... is very similar, but distinctly different than the Petrov Model. I absolutely advocate using the bottom arm JUST FOR BALANCE ... and when I see Bubka vids, that's what I see. And when the Isi vid was first linked on PVP (last year), I was confused by her comments. If THAT'S the Petrov Model, then I distance myself from it. It's getting late, but if someone could dig up that original thread, there was a lot of controversy around that vid. I commented on that thread ... but I forget the outcome.

The other distinct difference is that I exaggerated the pre-stretch ... to the extreme.

Remember that my interpretation of the "best way to vault" is based on my own personal style that I discovered/refined over a three year period ... long ago. So the advice I give is based on practical first-hand vaulting experience ONLY. No Petrov ... no BTB2.

Again, I'm flattered by the name of this new model ... but it doesn't exist.

Kirk
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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby MadeinTaiwan » Tue May 18, 2010 6:18 am

There are a lot of things that we do in training that we don't do in the vault, we don't vault on a highbar, we don't vault in a weight room etc.
We do these things because they can help us train certain parts of the vault, so I am interested what is the reason(s)for and against the one arm drill.

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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby nielsalofsen » Fri May 21, 2010 3:17 am

KirkB wrote:And when the Isi vid was first linked on PVP (last year), I was confused by her comments. If THAT'S the Petrov Model, then I distance myself from it. It's getting late, but if someone could dig up that original thread, there was a lot of controversy around that vid. I commented on that thread ... but I forget the outcome.
Kirk

Uhhh...I think it's this thread, Kirk... :)

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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby dougb » Thu Jul 15, 2010 10:57 am

Elite vaulters intention when vaulting.

This was on the Diamond Leauge chat with Hooker.

15 July, 2010 - 4:04 PM | by Douglas Balcomb - California
How do you use the left arm as youstart to swing your trail leg after leaving the ground? Thanks doug


Steven Hooker
4:05 PM
If you watch my jump I don't use a lot of left arm at the point of take off. Then I try and hit the pole agressively with the left as I start to swing my trail leg and get inverted.

I can't belive more people from this board wern't participationg! Guess everyone already knows everything.

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The older I get, The better I was.

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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby IAmTheWalrus » Thu Jul 15, 2010 11:14 am

I thought it was 1600 GMT not 1600 GMT + 2hrs, so I missed it.
-Nick

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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby PVDaddy » Tue Jul 20, 2010 12:36 am

In regards to the left hand pull in the vault I would like to add in my most humble manner that it is an extremely critical element of the vault and as any critical element it is well worth the study and I can clearly see why Agapit is drawing attention to it. It is the timing of that pull (when and how much) that I feel must be clearly understood. I believe that the pole is loaded by the top hand as revealed by the stretching action of the right shoulder and this is also a rubberband action so that the top hand lats initiate the pull which is then immediately added to by some pulling action of the left arm very soon after the plant takes place so that there is some (and I repeat some although mostly just lat that also increases the velocity of the whip until the pole has reached maximum bend. It is then that the major pulling action of the left hand takes place as the pole begins to uncoil. This action has two major benefits in that it delays the uncoiling action of the pole Which alows the vaulter to get out ahead of the pole and also adds to the speed of the whip. As the whip meets the drive knee, the drive knee straightens out with the whip to add to the upward thrust of the hips. Althought I have much disagreement with this phase of the vault I believe that from the inverted reverse "J" as I choose to call it, the upper back head and kneck are laid back in an aggressive manner as the most aggresive part of the left hand pull takes place. So basically what I am trying to say is that some left hand pull begins very early in the vault very soon after the plant and that it becomes ever more aggresive throughout the swing to verticle.
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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby KirkB » Tue Jul 20, 2010 1:45 am

PVDaddy wrote:In regards to the left hand pull in the vault ... some left hand pull begins very early in the vault very soon after the plant and that it becomes ever more aggresive throughout the swing to verticle.

Daddy, your comments seem to be out of context. You're arguing for a pull with the left arm ... and your argument appears to be a carbon copy of your post in the PV Manifesto thread a couple days ago ... yet this is what Hooker said about his technique ...
dougb wrote: ... Steven Hooker
4:05 PM
If you watch my jump I don't use a lot of left arm at the point of take off. Then I try and hit the pole agressively with the left as I start to swing my trail leg and get inverted.

When he says he tries to "hit" the pole aggressively with the left", he's referring to a push ... not a pull.

My comments re Hooker are that (1) I'm pleased to hear that he doesn't "use a lot of left arm at the point of takeoff", and (2) re his next sentence, it's very enlightening to hear him describe his intent.

Hooker's intent is the exact opposite of what Agapit proposes in his 640 Model. Altho I'm not a BIG fan of the double leg swing, I think what Hooker's doing with his left arm "as he starts to swing his trail leg" is complementary to his technique. Basically, I read this as him saying that he presses forwards with BOTH his left AND his right arm (his right arm would NOT be passive), and he simultaneously presses forwards with his trail leg swing. That ... I believe ... is the right action.

The way I think about this full-body action (the action of the arms plus the trail leg ... or both legs) is that you're converting from a backwards C (viewed from the right side of the runway) to a forwards C ... with all body parts involved in this continuous motion. I think Hooker has this right. :yes:

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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby PVDaddy » Wed Jul 21, 2010 12:21 am

Yes Kirk I did copy and paste my opinion about the bottom arm into this thread. It is a bottom arm discussion thread and I wanted to share my opinion and get some feedback. Perhaps I need to be enlightened what exactly constitutes a Pull from a Push? A Pull to me would be just that, pulling the pole toward myself. A push to me would be, Pushing the pole away from myself.
I would advocate Pushing the pole upward toward verticle with Both hands at plant to achieve the most free take-off possible. I would not be in favor of blocking out the left hand and pushing hard at plant. I do however believe that some left hand push does naturally occur After take off, even though the left elbow is slightly bent, but mostly it jusy transfers that energy to the right hand were most of the pole loading takes place. I also believe the slightly bent left elbow does help to bend the pole and to the left to open up a bettter window for the swing. I would concider this a push. I believe the swing should begin immediately after complete elasticity is achieved (The reverse-C). I believe that a Lat pull beging with the right from an elastic position because the shoulder has been stretched at this point and Immediately enhanced by the left lat would assist in accelerating the swing. I cannot see were a push at this point would help, but only hurt the swing? I believe After the swing has begun the left hand pull becomes increasingly obvious, especially after the pole begins to uncoil and that it is in fact a very critical element of the swing. After you have swung up to what I call the reverse-J and are covering the arc of the pole, the left hand pull is also very critical and most active. So the left hand pull becomes increasingly more active form the moment the whip begins until inversion. I believe this is what Hooker is saying. I believe a right hand pull occurs as the hips are thrust upward and the turn is occuring and a right hand Puuuuuuuuuush takes place as you leave the pole. I hope this clarifies what "I" mean by a push or a pull? Notice I have used the word "I believe" quite a bit becuase I do not concider myself even close to an expert like you Kirk. Heck, it sound like I don't even know the difference from a Pull or a Push!
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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby tsorenson » Wed Jul 21, 2010 2:24 pm

Yep, top and bottom arms both push AND pull at various stages of the vault, so the matter can't be simplified into one arm doing one thing or not. Language is most often a barrier to understanding on this discussion board...everyone has their own idea of the muscular actions involved with "pushing" "pulling" and "rowing", etc.

Most of the arguments about the action of the arms boil down to using simplifed words to describe a complex action. Your best bet when trying to learn or teach the swing to inversion is using a rope, highbar, and rings. Each will best simulate various stages of the swing and together can teach someone how to put it together on the pole. I find that rings are easiest for beginners, but highbar and rope make you use more muscle and get stronger than you will on rings alone.

The proper planting and takeoff action is best learned from short-run stiff-pole stay-behind drill, maximum grip.

PV Daddy, I agree that the left arm pulls as the vaulter straightens up and around the pole. I try to pull my left wrist to the left side of my face as my right hand comes to the right hip, allowing the COM to stay in alignment with the pole for the full recoil. After that, both hands push again.

Cheers
Tom

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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby KirkB » Wed Jul 21, 2010 11:00 pm

PVDaddy wrote: ... Perhaps I need to be enlightened what exactly constitutes a Pull from a Push? A Pull to me would be just that, pulling the pole toward myself. A push to me would be, Pushing the pole away from myself.

Yeh ... that's about it!

PVDaddy wrote: ... I believe that a Lat pull beging with the right from an elastic position because the shoulder has been stretched at this point and Immediately enhanced by the left lat would assist in accelerating the swing. I cannot see where a push at this point would help, but only hurt the swing?

... Heck, it sound like I don't even know the difference from a Pull or a Push!

Daddy, I appreciate your humbleness re all this. And don't be too hard on yourself for being confused between the pull and push. And the way you stated it here, I really think that you're very close to conventional wisdom about all this.

Push and pull both infer some pressure being exerted by the bottom arm, but in what direction? Generally, a straight push is in a forwards/upwards direction at approximately right angles to the longitudinal axis of the pole. A straight pull is also at right angles to the pull, but this time it's in the opposite direction - in a backwards/downwards direction.

But what if the pull or push is NOT at right angles to the pole. What's it called then? Well, what Agapit referred to as a pull in his PV Manifesto turned out to be a pull in the direction of the butt of the pole - pretty much halfway between a straight push and a straight pull. We clarified that kind of a pull as being a "lat pull", since it's your lats (latissimus dorsi muscles) that let you pull in that direction immediately after takeoff. Since you referred to the "lat pull" above, I think you understand this.

Tom's right about the lack of clarity in our PV lexicon, but I think if we can at least agree to these basic pull/push directions and refer to them consistently by name, then there will be less confusion.

Kirk
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