bel142 wrote:If the vault was not predetermined when the vaulter left the ground, this would allow for vaulters to jump past what the laws of physics allow.
Bel, I can see that you just "don't get it" yet. [sigh]
You wrote a lot of words, but all I got out of what you said is that once you leave the ground, the most you can possibly hope to achieve is to apply every last morsel of energy that you've already generated in your run and takeoff to your swing, extension, and fly-away over the bar ... without losing any energy ... except to the pull of gravity.
In other words, you're saying that if your energy at takeoff is 100% (since you haven't LOST any energy yet), then if you don't lose any energy due to inefficiencies in your vault, then all you can get back off the top of the pole is that same 100%. You're saying that anything greater than 100% is a mathematical impossibility. Is that your position?
But I just explained to you that this would only be true in outer space, when you have nothing to push against.
I buy your argument if you're a long jumper. They have nothing to push against after takeoff to make them jump further. But we do. As long as the pole is anchored to the box, you're able to push against the ground, just as on a highbar.
The highbar is anchored to the ground so if you manipulate your body against the highbar, you can do giants, shoot-to-a-handstand, release tricks off the top of the bar, and all kinds of other tricks. All this from a hanging start. A simple kip-up from a hanging start proves that you can generate additional energy once you leave the ground.
You just lift your legs, cast a bit to generate some swing, then go "arch to hollow", and do your kip. Now you're in a static position with your hips on the bar. You raised your potential energy by several feet ... all with sheer muscle-power! All from a static hang under the bar!
Your muscular actions add energy to the gymnast-highbar system, just as your muscular actions in the vault add energy to the vautler-pole system. Don't you get that?
If what YOU say is true, then you should not use your muscles at all. Instead, you should only use your skeletal system and tendons ... to minimize energy leakage.
While there's a huge advantage in swinging long and minimizing your muscular actions in SOME parts of the vault, you can't take this argument to the extreme. You shoudn't just "swing long". Instead, you should cause your downswing to accelerate as quickly as possible, so that it hits its maximum speed when you pass the chord. Otherwise, you're just "coasting", which doesn't add any energy.
Are you advocating just coasting during the downswing, or do you see the merit in accelerating your swing ... thru muscular actions. Not only "slight" muscular actions, but "vigorous" muscular actions ... from hand to toe!
Have I convinced you re the swing yet?
Let's move on to the extension ...
If muscular action does nothing, then you must be advocating just "freezing" in an inverted position and "riding the pole". Let's even sidestep the fact that the only way to get inverted is thru some muscular action. Or are you saying that by just "hanging onto the pole", you'll swing completely upside down into an inverted position without any additional muscular effort?
BTW, even "freeezing" takes some muscular energy, so I guess you're thinking that you need to exert enough muscular energy in this frozen positition (which would be passive, BTW) to stay inverted. Is that it?
Well, if you're going to spend some energy in freezing in this position (sounds like a tuck to me), then why not spend some MORE energy, and shoot out of that frozen position ... in unison with the pole? Even tuck shooters do that ... and when they do, they're adding energy to the system ... believe it or not!
Can't you see how the straightening of your torso, back, and shoulder muscles as you accentuate your extension, causing you to add energy to the system?
Have you got it now? ... or not?
If not, I've run out of words, and someone else will have to try to explain it. [sigh]