Push off

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Pogo Stick
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Re: Push off

Unread postby Pogo Stick » Wed Mar 11, 2009 8:08 pm

KirkB wrote:
Pogo Stick wrote: I find today the following article on net: "POLE VAULT AS DOUBLE PENDULUM AND PENETRATION". ...

Pogo, this entire paper lacks substance. It's not really a paper in the scientific sense, from what I read.
Kirk


Yeah, I agree, but some citations are worth of thinking:

I got another paper for you: Pole Vault for Engineers!
Don't be afraid, it has lot of nice vaulting photos ;)
http://www.download.bham.ac.uk/eng/metallurgy/kukureka/presentation/PoleVaultforEngineers.pdf
I can tell you that this paper is much better and everything inside is absolute true! (Nobody normal cannot post bad review about article which include Young's Modulus, Euler's Constant and lot of Greek alphabet letters. :devil:)
-- Pogo

"It is not necessary to change. Survival is not mandatory." W. Edwards Deming

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KirkB
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Re: Push off

Unread postby KirkB » Wed Mar 11, 2009 9:10 pm

I like this paper better! :yes:

There's a wierd distortion in this pic of Isi on about page 8 ...
Isi with Pre-Bend While Planting.JPG
Isi with Pre-Bend While Planting.JPG (21.64 KiB) Viewed 7092 times

This copy is distorted even more, but it's weird how the one in the pdf is already distorted.

Can anyone explain that? :confused:

Kirk
Run. Plant. Jump. Stretch. Whip. Extend. Fly. Clear. There is no tuck! THERE IS NO DELAY!

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altius
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Re: Push off

Unread postby altius » Wed Mar 11, 2009 10:48 pm

I dont want to spoil your fun guys, but given that probably 80% of US -and Canadian? - vaulters take off under, overgrip and try to bend the pole before they leave the ground - and their coaches encourage them to do these things, it behoves everyone with any influence to heed the saying from the Talmud - which I will restate, "Let not thy learning exceed they deeds. Mere knowledge is not the goal, but action".

I would also reiterate that I believe you may well be - almost certainly are - basing your conclusions on dodgy data. But dont mind me. In the middle ages the most learned churchmen argued long and hard about how many angels could sit on the head of a pin. : :confused: :dazed:
Its what you learn after you know it all that counts. John Wooden

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Re: Push off

Unread postby dougb » Thu Mar 12, 2009 3:30 pm

Don't know what taking off under has to do with this thread, but I get your point about garbage in and gospel out.

Your reference to dodgy data implies that you have better data ( Otherwise how would you know that the data being used here is dodgy?)

Could you share?

Doug Balcomb
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The older I get, The better I was.

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Re: Push off

Unread postby Pogo Stick » Thu Mar 12, 2009 3:58 pm

altius wrote:I dont want to spoil your fun guys, but given that probably 80% of US -and Canadian? - vaulters take off under, overgrip and try to bend the pole before they leave the ground - and their coaches encourage them to do these things, it behoves everyone with any influence to heed the saying from the Talmud - which I will restate, "Let not thy learning exceed they deeds. Mere knowledge is not the goal, but action".

I would also reiterate that I believe you may well be - almost certainly are - basing your conclusions on dodgy data. But dont mind me. In the middle ages the most learned churchmen argued long and hard about how many angels could sit on the head of a pin. : :confused: :dazed:


Alan, I have no other data except about myself, and I am not good reference point. At first I thought data in 6m table are accurate, but you made me think and opened my eyes. If you are watching vault on video you can make an educated guess about grip and just speculate about pole flex. Speed data are probably even less accurate. Except at the biggest competitions speed traps are not common equipment at meetings where majority of 6m guys set their PB's.
I think grip data are more accurate than any other data (except bar clearance :)).
2" error is 1% of pole length (very accurate) or 5% of push off value (acceptable). Many engineers will sell their souls to the devil for 5% error margin. ;)
Another reason is that grip and push off have straight 1:1 relationship - 1" higher grip means 1" lower push off. Grip is also easy to measure. If you have no tape, ask vaulter, chances are good you will get very accurate number, first-hand.
That's why I concentrated my "intellectual efforts" on grip and push off. I just like the numbers and currently have some spare time.

You will not believe, but few days ago I got the same association about angels and pins, so here is something for you with Petrov, dodgy data, angels and pins:

Moscow, Russia, early '70:
Oh no, not again Vitaly Afanasievich! You and your theory! Free take-off? Continuous Chain? You should know this is all based on dodgy data. And other coaches are complaining about you...
By the way, have you heard about open position for head coach in Siberia?...
No Vitaly Afanasievich, this is not a punishment. Irkutsk is just 10 days by train, and few weeks in summer you can even flight to...
Wait... maybe I should send Volkov there, and you can go to Donetsk instead. Yury also has some strange ideas...
No, no, Donetsk is just 1000 miles from here. You see - this is almost like reward...
Now, please come here and help me count the angels on that pin...
-- Pogo

"It is not necessary to change. Survival is not mandatory." W. Edwards Deming

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altius
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Re: Push off

Unread postby altius » Thu Mar 12, 2009 7:09 pm

I love it Pogo stick! Now tell me - are you employing that intelligence helping vaulters improve - if not you should be!

However to continue with the Petrov thoughts, I suspect that his ideas on the free take off did not come from any calculations but simply from watching Slusarski during the 70s, thinking about what he saw, considering the implications of what the stiff polers - like Warmerdam - did, and deciding that there was no point in wasting energy bending the pole at take off. Not sure if the biomechanists played any part in those deliberations. Anyway Alex Parnov should be in Adelaide in a few weeks time so i will ask him what he thinks about all this. I suspect he will tell me to forget all this nonsense and just get the vaulters out there training hard. That said i believe that he has as good a handle on how to exploit the inversion - from a practical perspective - as anyone on the planet. If you have any influence get him to speak on this at Reno next year!

If allowed, a side note to Tim - did you get my pm???
Its what you learn after you know it all that counts. John Wooden

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Pogo Stick
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Re: Push off

Unread postby Pogo Stick » Thu Mar 12, 2009 8:06 pm

altius wrote:I love it Pogo stick! Now tell me - are you employing that intelligence helping vaulters improve - if not you should be!


Thanks Altius. It is hard to write free-form text on your second language (or maybe third)... I can just imagine how horrible my sentences are sometime for native speakers. But this will not stop me. :D
Regarding pole vaulting I am completing full circle: vaulting, doing nothing and now going back toward vaulting.
To paraphrase old saying I would say "Those who can't do, learn" - I am in learning phase now. That means lot of mistakes, wrong conclusions from dodgy data, wrong conclusions from good data and all kind of fallacies in logical reasoning. But I am optimist and I have long term goal. ;)

However to continue with the Petrov thoughts, I suspect that his ideas on the free take off did not come from any calculations but simply from watching Slusarski during the 70s, thinking about what he saw, considering the implications of what the stiff polers - like Warmerdam - did, and deciding that there was no point in wasting energy bending the pole at take off. Not sure if the biomechanists played any part in those deliberations.


I am pretty sure that in Petrov's case the science came later in process as support of basic premises. "There is nothing more practical than a good theory" (by Lewin or Maxwell or Boltzmann)

Anyway Alex Parnov should be in Adelaide in a few weeks time so i will ask him what he thinks about all this. I suspect he will tell me to forget all this nonsense and just get the vaulters out there training hard. That said i believe that he has as good a handle on how to exploit the inversion - from a practical perspective - as anyone on the planet. If you have any influence get him to speak on this at Reno next year!


I would like to help, but I don't know Parnov. We are from different countries - I am from Croatia (Adriatic Sea, city of Split, tags: Blanka Vlasic, Goran Ivanisevic, Toni Kukoc, sorry no remarkable pole vaulters)
-- Pogo

"It is not necessary to change. Survival is not mandatory." W. Edwards Deming


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