Is Pushing with the Bottom Arm Good or Bad?

[KirkB]

Robert, I'm trying to figure out what you meant, so please bear with me ...

... about 4 wks into the injury ... I could run, plant, do pop ups no problem with the left shoulder. went to vault from my 4 left mark and ooch!! did another pop up no problem. thought about it for a while and said what the heck I'll try a "pop up" actually pulling slightly ... no shoulder pain ... I was running from 59'6" ...

I'm just a little confused between your pop ups and your 4 lefts. Were they both from 59'6"? Or were the pop ups from a shorter run? And was the only diff that your pop ups you didn't swing?

The reason I ask is I'm trying to figure out what you meant by "pulling". I understand that you "pulled slightly" from the pop up, but did you also "pull slightly" from the 4 lefts? If so, with what arm, and in what direction?

... I felt like the swing impacted the pole less. ...

From 4 lefts, right? As a result of doing exactly what? And do you consider that good or bad?

If your bottom arm was the injured one, I can understand why you would use it differently coming off the injury, but I'm just a little confused because you clearly say that it was your left (top) arm that was injured.

Before this experience I would have argued that I apply no pressure with my bottom arm but after actively trying not to... in fact that was all I was focussing on... I would now say.... that there is some pressure applied I can't feel it I can only tell when I didn't. My Intent at plant and take off is to use my arms to assist the jump getting as tall upwards as I can and stretch upwards through my top arm . This applies some force upward through my left arm I'm sure. I don't try to increase, exaggerate, or extend the time that I perform this. Kind of like if I was jumping up to dunk a basketball I use my arms to assist my jump that's it....

This is good stuff! You're trying to analyze what exactly happened in those jumps - in some detail.

I'm not trying to debate whether what you did was good or bad, I'm just trying to understand it better myself - thru your experience.

And with your left arm recovering from an injury 4 weeks prior, do you think you modified your usual technique any to avoid further injury? I cringe when I think that you're trying to put all the weight on your LEFT (injured) top arm. In that situation, I think I would definitely modify my technique to protect myself from further injury - but you're the doctor!

I'm guessing that as a chiropractor, you have better body awareness than most of us, so you have better credibility for that reason!

Kirk

[Robert schmitt]

Robert, I'm trying to figure out what you meant, so please bear with me ...

... about 4 wks into the injury ... I could run, plant, do pop ups no problem with the left shoulder. went to vault from my 4 left mark and ooch!! did another pop up no problem. thought about it for a while and said what the heck I'll try a "pop up" actually pulling slightly ... no shoulder pain ... I was running from 59'6" ...

I'm just a little confused between your pop ups and your 4 lefts. Were they both from 59'6"? Or were the pop ups from a shorter run? And was the only diff that your pop ups you didn't swing?
I usually do a pop up from 2 lefts breaking my bottom left arm elbow to the inside of the pole (the same side my body swings by). I did this from my 4 left approach gripping at where I would usually vault from. the difference is I actively try to colapse my bottom left arm and kind of lead/point my elbow to the inside of the pole so the pole doesn't get caught in my armpit as I swing up

The reason I ask is I'm trying to figure out what you meant by "pulling". I understand that you "pulled slightly" from the pop up, but did you also "pull slightly" from the 4 lefts? If so, with what arm, and in what direction?
yes, it was the same action I was trying to do at 4 lefts

... I felt like the swing impacted the pole less. ...

From 4 lefts, right? As a result of doing exactly what? And do you consider that good or bad?
I'm not really sure If it was because the pole had less bend or I was injured or not jumping for a while
If your bottom arm was the injured one, I can understand why you would use it differently coming off the injury, but I'm just a little confused because you clearly say that it was your left (top) arm that was injured.

Before this experience I would have argued that I apply no pressure with my bottom arm but after actively trying not to... in fact that was all I was focussing on... I would now say.... that there is some pressure applied I can't feel it I can only tell when I didn't. My Intent at plant and take off is to use my arms to assist the jump getting as tall upwards as I can and stretch upwards through my top arm . This applies some force upward through my left arm I'm sure. I don't try to increase, exaggerate, or extend the time that I perform this. Kind of like if I was jumping up to dunk a basketball I use my arms to assist my jump that's it....

My left arm is my bottom arm. where I talk about "my intent....." I'm trying to explain my typical jump NOT what I was doing that one day That day I was trying not to jump using my left bottom arm because it hurt to do so....any uppward pressure exerted with my bottom arm hurt it....You see that is why I thought I could jump that day because like I said I thought I didn't use my bottom arm at all...I never had any pain warming up, carring the pole, doing pop up drills, I could even push with the arm like a bench press motion w/o pain as soon...I could raise my arm over head w/o pain... as soon as I had any resistance when pressing over head I had PAIN.... I you understand the AC joint it makes sense why this motion would exacerbate the pain...So it was a really unique situation where I got imediate painful stimulus if I pressed up at all with my bottom arm
This is good stuff! You're trying to analyze what exactly happened in those jumps - in some detail.

I'm not trying to debate whether what you did was good or bad, I'm just trying to understand it better myself - thru your experience.

And with your left arm recovering from an injury 4 weeks prior, do you think you modified your usual technique any to avoid further injury? I cringe when I think that you're trying to put all the weight on your LEFT (injured) top arm. In that situation, I think I would definitely modify my technique to protect myself from further injury - but you're the doctor!

I'm guessing that as a chiropractor, you have better body awareness than most of us, so you have better credibility for that reason!
I don't know if awarness really comes from that but I know the anatomy fairly well. I do have a unique backround in that I waterskied in ski shows for 10 years and was a professional kneeboarder for one year. Knowing how to do 18 variations of flips on a kneeboard, freestyle jumping, trick skiing, and barefooting tricking gives you alot of kienesthetic (sp) awarness. and since your transfering/maintaing alot of your torque/power through your arms flipping on a kneeboard I have a pretty good awarness as to what is happening when I swing pole vaulting whether what I'm doing is considered right or not.

Kirk

[KirkB]

Robert, thanks, I got it now.

I had a mental block - confusing your left arm with your right. You wrote it correctly, but I just didn't read it properly - perhaps because I'm a lefty I think in terms of top/bottom arm rather than right/left arm. My bad.

So now that I understand that you tried that day to NOT put pressure on your bottom (left) arm, and it hurt, I can see how you conclude that you MUST have always put some pressure on it, even tho not by INTENT.

This is what's tricky about analyzing PV technique.

1. There's what a coach sees by watching a vault in person;
2. there's what the coach and the athlete see by reviewing a vault by vid (normal speed and slo-mo);
3. there's what the athlete INTENDED to do;
4. there's what the athlete FELT happened; and
5. there's what ACTUALLY happened.

Sometimes, these can draw you to 5 separate conclusions. We've all fallen into that trap, so we just need to be wary of it.

Even in my case, there's the possibility that what I THOUGHT I FELT on my good jumps (which matched my INTENT) was not the same as what I ACTUALLY did. Like you Robert, I may have pressed a bit - SUBCONCIOUSLY. This is something that's hard to figure out - vid or no vid.

The only caution I will give with this is that if you coach a vaulter to "press a bit", he will likely press too much. But if you coach him to "press subconciously" then you're asking him to do the impossible! For that reason, my preference is to say "don't press at all', and if he presses subconciously, then that's probably OK - it was meant to be.

And if you see that he's pressing too much, you can say "don't press so much".

It's all relative.

Kirk

[KirkB]

Robert, one last possibility here ...

There's also the possibility that the pain you felt that day was from immediately AFTER the pole started to bend. (I think NOT, but MAYBE.)

This is the vault part where - as the pole bends more and more towards it's max bend - the bottom arm takes more and more of your body weight (balanced across both arms). If you think of this vault part as the time during which "the pole turns into a highbar", then you will understand what I mean.

Once you get to full bend, the pole feels MOST like a highbar. That's when your weight is most balanced between both arms.

After that point in time - as the pole uncoils - you take more weight onto your top arm again.

Kirk

[Robert schmitt]

This is what's tricky about analyzing PV technique.

1. There's what a coach sees by watching a vault in person;
2. there's what the coach and the athlete see by reviewing a vault by vid (normal speed and slo-mo);
3. there's what the athlete INTENDED to do;
4. there's what the athlete FELT happened; and
5. there's what ACTUALLY happened.

It's all relative.

Kirk

you did a great job stating what I was getting at. Also the same thing I was getting at in the role of the top arm To row or not to row. Because having that seaperated shoulder made me realize the is a big difference in what I intended to do-what I felt happen(which matched what I intended to do)---- and what actually is happening.

[PaulVaulter]

Robert Schmitt:

Very cool, I think you've basically described what I'm trying to get at. Because you couldn't push with your bottom arm, even though it is a small amount, it did affect your jump. You couldn't transfer the energy as smoothly, which would definately have affected your jump.

Kirk B:

I agree, really don't think you should coach anyone to push. Driving both hands upwards is plenty enough of a cue.

[powerplant42]

You couldn't transfer the energy as smoothly, which would definately have affected your jump.

Have you ever hit a real free take-off? If you pushed out with the bottom arm during one, it WILL affect your jump... negatively. I'll even consider making a video.

[PaulVaulter]

Firstly powerplant, can i say I really think you need to find a better way to put your points across. It may just be my interpretation, but i see your words as confrontational and not in the spirit of the board.

Secondly can I say LOL, at your suggestion to make another video. Can I suggest an alteration to its content though. Off your full run, take the pole that you would normally jump on, and using the push plant technique (ala Tye Harvey) run down and take-off, this is the only way you can do a take-off without the left hand touching the pole at all. That is the only way you will proove to me that you don't need your left arm to push. I have seen Tim McMichaels video, posted ages ago, but that was not a competition pole off competition run.

I don't see that my technique has anything to do with it. I'm talking the mechanical properties of a pole vault pole. But yes I have, and it doesn't feel like you push at all, but I guarantee that at the instant the pole begins to bend there will be a force applied by the bottom hand, unless you are on a really small pole.

xx

[powerplant42]

I'm sorry if I come across as confrontational... Believe me, I have no intention of being so. I don't always act as if we aren't in a room TALKING with eachother.

The thing about the bottom arm is that it DOES push the pole forward... BEFORE take-off! Have you seen the Petrov video on free take-off?

[Robert schmitt]

What I was trying to get across is in both pushing with the bottom arm, rowing with the top arm, and even how the swing is generated is it comes down to what the vaulter's cue it, what he is focusing on, what his intent is, How he senses the development of force from the swing is it in the foot? the body getting stretched out from centripital force? is it how the pole reacts? is it the speed of inversion? ....... I see this kind of like the three blind men trying to describe an elephant. one is holding on to the trunk saying it's a gigantic snake, another is touching the leg and saying no it is a huge tree, the third is touching the tail and saying no,no,no...you are all wrong it is a small vine. Depends on your point of view and what you are focusing on.

[golfdane]

Excellent analogy, Robert

I think we're splitting hairs, and not getting our points through as we intended (the flaw of internet debating). We're talking past each other (not sure if that's a valid expression).

[Riley Crosby]

I wish I could get a straight answer, spent about an hour reading almost this whole thread. I am a high school vaulter and every coach I have ever had has told me to have a "big left arm" in other words, pushing the pole towards the pit, or to its vertical. Now, I do not see how I could possibly make it into the bit if I didn't have a rigid left arm to move the pole.
-Riley