Dropping the lead knee - time for a retrospective?

[volteur]

Eh - indeed!!! But who - apart from me of course - thought that Australia could produce an Olympic champion in the vault. I realise that Canada has bigger problems than OZ in track and field - but not much bigger. It only takes one committed coach like Mark Stewart and a determined individual like Steve Hooker and as we have seen anything can happen. Remember that at one point in his career, and not so long ago either, Steve had the yips so badly that he could not even take off from two steps!!

Altius, one could have thought Dimitri Markov could have repeated his World Championship at the Olympics, but then again he was an import so that wouldn't of really counted.

Steve was always of the super-talent variety and it is great to see him achieve what was always somewhere within his potential, although an Olympic Title would not have ever been predicted by myself. As for his yips - i see the elimination of this as one of Mark Stewart's great coaching achievements and i fully believe Mark worked at this until Steve's confidence blossomed. I remember seeing this in process down at Box Hill track. Whatever Mark's skill as a technical coach, his skill at creating a supportive environment and providing the emotional assistance to his athletes is a rare thing. Emma George didn't improve after her move to Perth and Parnov. Also for Steve's recent success he is still jumping in the range Mark left him with, albeit a little higher (9cm). One could say his third round clearance in the qualifying and multiple third attempt clearances in the final is more a testament to mark's emotional and mental influence than any other. One could also say that Parnov and his personal approach of forcing the athlete up poles almost came undone a number of times - there was either extreme luck or something enduring from the recent Mark Stewart days that got Steve through.

Altius, Jimmy Miller was an excellent vaulter and with 5.75 at 21? he could well have continued improving. Did you see him as a potential Olympic champion?

[KirkB]

With Steve Hooker's 6.06i in Boston today, I'm back to thinking about the pros and cons of "dropping" the lead knee, and I'm sure he's opening everyone's eyes to his particular style of the Petrov model ...

1. According to BTB2, remember that the Petrov model doesn't say whether the lead knee should be "dropped" or not. Dropping the lead knee is just an "alternate style" within the Petrov model.

2. I put "dropping" and "dropped" in quotes, because I don't think he's actually DROPPING it. I think he's just letting it follow a "natural path" throughout his swing.

3. My thoughts about "optimal technique" from back in my day were influenced by a couple germane facts: (a) the WR at the time - in 1971 - was only 5.49; (b) Wolfgang Nordwig (the 68 Olympic Bronze and 72 Gold Medalist at 5.50) was the only world-class vaulter that dropped his lead knee; and (c) Nordwig actually dropped his lead knee DOWN, then UP again - not by SWINGING it up, but by PULLING it up (sort of like how modern tuck/shooters pull their trail leg in to reduce the radius).

Really, there's no comparison between Nordwig and Hooker's drop-the-lead-knee technique. They're like night and day.

So I'm leaning more and more towards Hooker having more optimal technique than Bubka. They each follow a different style of the Petrov model, but they're both Petrovers.

The point of comparing Hooker at 6.06 to Nordwig at 5.50 is that there's a TON of differences between Hooker gripping at ~5.10 (~16-9) compared to Nordwig probably no higher than ~4.80 (~15-9) or so. And let's not forget the vast differences in pole technology. Or the fact that Nordwig only had ~8 years of fiberglass PV history to study, whereas Hooker had ~44 years. So Nordwig's technique was very, very "raw", and he had to get inverted a lot quicker than Hooker.

Hooker can cast a much longer, sweeping arc in his swing than Nordwig ever could. So Nordwig HAD TO lift his knee back up, or he'd get behind the pole. But Hooker just uses a long, flowing sweep of both his trail leg AND his lead leg to swing to inversion - WITHOUT having to lift the leg to catch up to the pole!

In my mind, that's the difference. I know it's hard for you all to imagine how Nordwig vaulted back then. I searched for some film, but all I found was this: http://visualwikipedia.com/en/Wolfgang_Nordwig That's him vaulting at the 1:55 mark of the vid, but I must warn you that it's VERY poor quality. The cameraman only catches the upper half of Nordwig's body when he drops his lead knee, but it comes back into view as he rocks back. With a little imagination, you can visualize how he pulls BOTH legs up into a bit of a tuck/shoot - altho it's not very similar to modern tuck/shoot technique.

Anyway, my conclusion - as I was beginning to think when I started this thread shortly after the 2008 Olympics were over - is that Hooker's technique is possibly BETTER than Bubka's!

Heck, even back in 1972, we knew of the physics advantage of putting more energy into the pole by keeping the trail leg low. That's what Hooker's doing. Even if not by intent, the path of this trail and lead legs have found a sort of "natural path". Even if not by intent, I think his body has guided him down this path.

Just because we're all mostly advocates of keeping the lead knee up doesn't mean that it's the optimal technique when you get into the stratosphere of 6.00+.

We need to keep our minds open about this. What do you all think?

Kirk

[dj]

Good morning

In 1974/75 Guy Kochel was told if he didn’t “change” Earl’s technique that Earl would never make it to the top as a vaulter and that he (Kochel) would be a failure as a vault coach. 1000’s of dropped knees later Earl was the world record holder.

I studied numerous hours of film from fiberglass and steel vaulters during Earl’s rise to the top and couldn’t find any “logical” reason to change. It followed the laws of physics, it wasn’t something Earl even thought about and was a “natural” action to create more penetration with a higher grip.

The only concern I could come up with was: was he getting the maximum from the takeoff by not driving the lead knee “hard” enough? what I called “impulse”, “transfer of momentum” or maximum takeoff velocity. He did seem to be getting most, if not all, of the benefits by doing things the way he was. He could raise his grip and still penetrate. So what he could be losing in “takeoff energy” he was making up in “swing” energy.

I made an additional comparison to the High Jump takeoff. It was a commonly held “principle’ that a high jumper needed to “drive” the lead knee very hard to a “thigh” parallel to the ground position to maximize the takeoff force. It was also a common principle to swing the arms very hard and stop them abruptly; creating what was called a “block” that would assist the transfer of momentum of the body mass in a more vertical way. I had previously done a video analysis (study) of high jumpers compared to basketball players when they dunked a basketball. Basketball players did not “block” with the arms so how did they “transfer” the mass up in a way to dunk? The answer seemed to be in the “lead leg” at the takeoff. That leg was usually driven up at take off and generally came to and abrupt “stop” and even seemed to be “pumped” in a way to transfer the body mass vertically much in the way the arms were used in the high jump. Of course it was very difficult to determine from film and not talking with the athletes themselves, as to what they “felt” if the leg was driven up initially and the body “passed” the knee drive or if the leg was actually driven up and “pumped” and was dropped back down.

In 1974/75 when I was working with Kochel at ASU I could still dunk a basketball and high jump over 2 meters. I went into the gym and tried various techniques for the “jump” to dunk. Naturally, without thought… I drove the knee and blocked with the larger Quad muscles of the lead leg on my first dunk. I then tried to put more force into the jump with an “emphasized’ pump of the lead leg.. it worked I got more height. I then tried to “hold” the lead knee up without a “pump’ and I got less height, either because of poor timing or there was no “block’ or proper “transfer of momentum.” Because I couldn’t bunk with two hands the way I have seem some pro’s do I could not “test’ the arm block theory.

Some time later, a day or so later, I went to the high jump and tried various moves, arms up like a dunk with a lead knee “pump”.. arm “pump” with a knee drop.. and my “normal’ way of jumping which was hard drive with the lead knee and the arms. I felt that I pumped the lead knee but didn’t “drop’ it as such.. I just passed it on the way into my arc. My arms had a very slight “pump’ but didn’t really stop or block, they followed a vertical path eventually “opening” to stop my rotation around the central vertical axis of the body which allowed me to clear the bar in a back to the bar position. The arms were then reached toward the pit to “lift’ the hips over the bar.

I found my “natural’ way of jumping with an emphasis on going vertical with the maximum ‘impulse/explosion at the takeoff giving me the best result.

I then, days later, took my “knee drop” thoughts to the pole vault pit. I tried to intentionally drop the knee the way Earl was doing it. I immediately penetrated deeper into the pit but didn’t complete the swing. Of course penetrating deeper would/should indicate a higher grip, but I didn’t have the ‘wavohees” (sp) or the time to put into feeling ‘safe’ with more grip at that time.

Why did I go to these lengths to find an answer? That is what I felt necessary to have a better understanding of the “physics/biomechanics” that was involved, plus getting a ‘feel’ for what the athlete may or may not feel should help in the communication between coach and athlete.

Sorry this is a “big” post, with some things that may not seem relative, and now.. as it was back then, I came to a very simple conclusion.

The knee drop seems to be an action that just “happens’, maybe because of physics, pole design, grip or as a result of some action that happened just before the resultant knee drop. Most results in the “chain’ are generally cause by a preceding movement.

I don’t think it should be taught or copied. I don’t think the athlete is aware or should be aware of doing it.

It just happens….

RUN………PLANT…………..SWING

dj

ps.. by the way Dave Roberts who was a “classic knee driver” at takeoff actually “dropped’ his knee in his world record jump in 1975. He was not remotely aware of this and before seeing the film he was still firm in teaching that you should always drive the knee big..

I feel: knee drive/finish the takeoff/strong impulse/attack the plant-takeoff should be taught and if the knee drops and doesn’t effect the outcome… take it..

[KirkB]

First, great post, DJ!

You not only presented sound principles of physics, but you backed them up by describing your personal experience with them, in HJ, PV, and dunking a basketball! Great stuff! (no pun intended - it just rolled off my tongue! haha!)

Really DJ, this is one of your best posts, IMHO. Yes, you've had some good ones re Mid Marks, but that's not my area of expertise, so I couldn't really say much.

Here, this is right up my alley. You articulated the issues regarding the lead knee drop very well. In fact, YOU NAILED IT!

Here's Tulley's 18-6 vid. Unfortunately, the camera angle obscures his lead knee. Does anyone have any better vid of Tulley from the side? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmOXBiYvS7s

Second, here's what I posted last night on the "Is Pushing with the Bottom Arm Good or Bad?" thread:

... This one was from Apr 25, 2005 on the "Russian Style Pole Vaulting.." thread:

DJ - you mentioned lots of great names that have influenced the sport immensely over the years!

One that hasn't been mentioned yet: Wolfgang Nordwig. In my opinion, one of the best early fiberglass swing-style vaulters. Narrow handspread, free takeoff, long fast swing, great lineup covering the pole. A huge contrast to Seagren and Pennel, who were great vaulters using very different models.

Lonestar, I hadn't actually thought of Nordwig as a "swing vaulter" back in the day, but I know what you mean now ... more than ever. Earlier tonight, I'd dug up the Nordwig film (above - but very poor quality), and noticed for the first time that he let his bottom arm collapse.

Quite frankly, I hadn't even thought about that technical issue back in '72 with Nordwig, because I was more infatuated with his unique drop of the lead knee. But he def lets the bottom arm collapse (a good thing), and now that you mention it, he swings thru his rock-back rather than "getting stuck" in it.

He still tucks significantly (a bad thing by today's standards), but he seems to have enough momentum to continue thru to extension, without waiting for the pole to get to vertical. Could it be becuz he applied more energy into the pole by letting his lead knee drop? That's my theory for the moment, but I wish we had better vid of him.

Tonight is actually the first time I've ever seen vid of him. Back in the day, it was always direct line-of-sight, which is rather difficult to slo-mo, rewind, or analyze frame by frame.

Honestly, every time I watched him vault, I watched his lead knee and not his hands. I did see his swing, but I had nothing to compare it against, other than my own swing, so I discounted his technique due to his lead knee drop. I failed to notice that he had a crude form of "continuous chain" - cruder than mine, but neverthless quite Petrovy. In hindsight, I didn't watch him with the right pair of eyes.

Third, I take this statement back, after viewing Nordwig's film, and reading Swtvault's post:

Really, there's no comparison between Nordwig and Hooker's drop-the-lead-knee technique. They're like night and day.

Fourth, here's a pic of Nordwig. (I doubt that his grip was that wide. He's not even grimacing! This must be a posed pic.)

Wolfgang Nordwig - the pioneer of the lead knee drop!

Wolfgang Nordwig.jpg (12.5 KiB) Viewed 10474 times

Four different points, but they're all related!

Kirk

[KirkB]

Take a look at Pat Manson demonstrating that a double-leg swing is possible.

http://www.neovault.com/ (Play Clip 2)

Do you think that with a bit (or a lot!) of practice, you could actually WHIP both legs simultaneously like that - in a competitive vault?

Keep in mind that Pat has not trained for this, and was not serious about this. It's a hypothetical question right now, but could it be that some vaulter some day will take this seriously - perhaps an ex-highbar gymnast - and be hugely successful with it?

Re the Laws of Physics, what does this technique have going for it?

What does it have against it?

Kirk

[vaultman18]

Do you think that with a bit (or a lot!) of practice, you could actually WHIP both legs simultaneously like that - in a competitive vault?

This guy does. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btrfijbUGUw this is a 5.40 vault.

I do not believe this is a method worth pursuing. This is my opinion and may not be true.

The video above is Mark Johnson who jumped at Coastal Carolina and Auburn. And he has made it work well for himself.

[golfdane]

Take a look at Pat Manson demonstrating that a double-leg swing is possible.

http://www.neovault.com/ (Play Clip 2)

Do you think that with a bit (or a lot!) of practice, you could actually WHIP both legs simultaneously like that - in a competitive vault?

Keep in mind that Pat has not trained for this, and was not serious about this. It's a hypothetical question right now, but could it be that some vaulter some day will take this seriously - perhaps an ex-highbar gymnast - and be hugely successful with it?

Re the Laws of Physics, what does this technique have going for it?

What does it have against it?

Kirk

Empirical evidence.
Many state, that physically, Bubka was and is unique. He was adamant, that the difference was technique.

I think, that in many ways, Hooker is as good or better than Bubka ever was, and still, Hooker has not (yet) passed a 6m bar with the extra height that Bubka had on a lot of 6m clearances.

[PaulVaulter]

Is it just coincidence or are the top vaulters techiques linked to the colour of their pole?

[swtvault]

[

Take a look at Pat Manson demonstrating that a double-leg swing is possible.

http://www.neovault.com/ (Play Clip 2)

Do you think that with a bit (or a lot!) of practice, you could actually WHIP both legs simultaneously like that - in a competitive vault?

Keep in mind that Pat has not trained for this, and was not serious about this. It's a hypothetical question right now, but could it be that some vaulter some day will take this seriously - perhaps an ex-highbar gymnast - and be hugely successful with it?

Re the Laws of Physics, what does this technique have going for it?

What does it have against it?

Kirk

I think a perfect example of whipping both legs simultaneously would be Jason Colwick. He does it rather effectively and seems able to accelerate the swing to a degree. When you watch vids of guys like Earl Bell, you really see it as more of a survival mechanism, but Colwick really is able to exploit a lot of energy from a true double leg swing.

As far as physics and the advantages of the technique, I think it is a double edged sword. I think that it allows you to create a tremendous amount of swing energy (much like the gymnast on the high bar) but I also think that it really cuts down on the energy oppurtunities at takeoff due to an abbreviated and unfinished penultimate stride. I really could not get into anything other than personal observation, but I think that the gains in rotational forces do not outweigh the losses in potential energy missed from the last two strides of the approach due to having an unfinished and abreviated penultimate stride.

[dj]

Hey PaulVaulter,

Is it just coincidence or are the top vaulters techiques linked to the colour of their pole?

it is interesting no one wanted to "tap" in on your comment...

i have analyzed the last 5.90 jumps of each jumper side by side and frame by frame from the same angles of the BBC broadcast.

Their technique is virtually identical.. and I would say they are more than likely on the same pole with the same proportionate sail pieces.

Lukyanenko drops the right knee slightly more than Hooker… their swing is almost “dead on” except hooker pulls in (muscles) a little with the right/top arm… which is what I think made him go to the right.. Lukyanenko was nice .. “down the middle” and finished well, just short on penetration.

Hooker bent the pole (shortened the pole cord more at maximum bend) a bit more.. which helped him move the pole to vertical easier with his energy input.

I feel Lukyanenko’s jump was better technically of those two jumps…his forces were down the middle so to speak, but he probably could have jumped higher and penetrated more with a very minute “softer” flex pole or with a slightly higher grip to “shorten the radius” a little more which would help him move the pole to vertical more with the same energy input..

And yes I feel the pole design has an effect on the technique used and how the application of force is distributed according to physics.

dj

[Livininthepast]

i USED TO never lead with my knee and my coach tried to change me. I continued to break records. However, when I did finally lead with my knee I was able to move my hand hold up almost 2 feet.

I find that just as in pro football, statistics are interesting to look at, but what matters is who wins. Bubka was the best athlete ever to vault. He had the speed, the guts, the gymnastics ability. No one will ever be as fearless as him.
But a high hand hold might beat his record.
I new a goofy footer in high school who cleared 15 feet at a 16 year old.

[VTechVaulter]

1. in the video of mark johnson above, i wanted to make on thing clear. Mark Johnsons technique is completely different. It is not a dropped lead knee. A dropped lead knee would imply the leg came up or started to and fell. He takes off with his right leg already behind him. If you look at Beccas pictures from the 2004 ncaa championships, you will see a few pictures of him, where hes right leg is actually sitting ontop of his left leg behind him.. "hooked" onto his left leg actually. This isn't super relevant, i just wanted to clarify it for those who haven't seen him much in person.

2. with reguards to the color of the pole. correct me if im wrong but.. steve hookers poles are not white with pink labeling. I'm pretty sure they are pacer carbons.

unless!!!! somebody at spirit died the poles grey, and wrapped them in pacer logos just for laughs. after all. conspiracys are everywhere
Bubka jumped 6.0m+ on pacers and spirits, 6.06 for hooker on pacers, 6.05 for markov on spirits, 6.05 for tarasov on carbons, 6.04 for walker on spirits, 6.03 for hartwig on pacers. can we just let this freaking arguement go already. Clearly you can jump very high on carbons enough said about it

3. i think i stated this before in another post but ill re-iterate. it seems some people use the dropped lead knee as a way to stall the swing. i know every know and then wehn im really under and get yanked, my lead knee drops as a way to keep me moving into the pit to make up for the losses at take off. Hooker i also think drops the lead knee because he tends to be under and gets hit a bit at the box (not trying to say i can make hooker better or anything, im just saying thats what I see). Although this theory is shot down by Pavlov/Lukyanenko (they might as well be the same jumper, style is so similar), who both have free take offs, good arm work/ chest work, and still drop the lead knee...

anyway like i said, just a few of my observations