The Bryde Bend (Jump to the Split)

[KirkB]

You'll notice that I changed my tagline slightly. Hinge/Swing/Whip hints at the simultaneous nature of Hinge and Swing. There's only one Whip, but Hinge and Swing occur both before and after the Whip - somewhat simultaneously.

I should have said "Hinge/Swing/Whip/Hinge/Swing", but that's too wordy. Besides, taglines are restricted to 100 characters here. So when you read "Swing/Hinge/Whip", remember to think "Hinge/Swing" after that.

The rest of the one-word sentences are all still "blended", but there's a definite sequence to them.

Run. Plant. Jump. Split. Hinge/Swing/Whip. Extend. Fly. Clear. THERE IS NO ROCKBACK OR TUCK!

Kirk

[jcoover]

Thanks Kirk!! All questions answered.

Jeff

[volteur]

nice adaption Kirk, you just need a melody to go with it.

I will come back as busy now.

nice!

[KirkB]

... So the point is this: is raising the left heel in a manner demonstrated by Carl Lewis in the first image a waste of energy if we as vaulters don't need to attain the position that long jumpers strive for represented by the second picture?

Sorry Jeff, I missed this point, since Lewis jumps left-footed. I jump right-footed, so I have to reverse left/right. That's why I always refer to takeoff leg or lead leg.

So paraphrased, you ask "is raising the takeoff leg ... a waste of energy if we ... don't need to attain the position that long jumpers strive for ..."

I kind of answered this indirectly in a couple ways.

First, powerplant42 asked the same question about "waste of energy", so see my reply to him. It's in the "take-off point" thread, here: viewtopic.php?f=38&t=15636

Second, I actually argued in my reply to you that I didn't see the point of long jumpers striving for a "raised takeoff leg". I think it's far more beneficial for a vaulter. The reason has nothing to do with long jumping. I think we now agree that LJ is like PV only to the point of the pole hitting the back of the box. The reason for raising the takeoff leg (not just the heel) is to set up the body posture for a more vigorous Hinge/Swing/Whip.

I hope that's clearer now.

Kirk

[volteur]

Kirk nice work

run - this is a world unto itself which i want to talk about in the pole vertical thread!!!
plant - specifics? What timing did you use for example?
jump - for me this was more of stretching my body out than jumping. If i jumped fully it was too high for vaulting. Was your jump sub-maximal at all?
split - this is the bit i disagree with. I agree with attaining a full C position at the completion of the takeoff but i don't agree that we should actively push back into a split after takeoff. I feel the full C position is an end-product of a free takeoff or at least a correctly timed takeoff.
hinge/swing/whip - i like the way you described this. So we have the hinge part which i think is a simulatneous hip and shoulder hinge. The swing is an end-product of what came before it and is not an active component as most of us now agree. The whip is what? The swing being whipped through?
Extend - this works for me especially if we are in a highly flexed position prior.
Fly - i never experienced this phase as a vaulter
clear - just do it no matter what!

volteur

[KirkB]

plant - specifics? What timing did you use for example?

I timed the plant in conjunction with the pole drop. It's all explained in Post #11-12.

jump - for me this was more of stretching my body out than jumping. If i jumped fully it was too high for vaulting.

YOU MUST JUMP ON TAKEOFF!!! The higher/further the Jump the better. Are you saying that just "stretching my body out" is a good thing? Definitely not!

If you're just letting yourself get picked off the ground, then you don't add any energy to the system. The result will be a poor handstand and no Fly.

Was your jump sub-maximal at all?

No, I had a very good Jump. You cannot do the Split properly if you don't have a good Jump.

split - this is the bit i disagree with. I agree with attaining a full C position at the completion of the takeoff but i don't agree that we should actively push back into a split after takeoff. I feel the full C position is an end-product of a free takeoff or at least a correctly timed takeoff.

You can't combine a "stretching my body out" type of Jump with the Split. You need a powerful, aggressive Jump to get to a proper Split. And a good Split will get you to a good "C". Unless you've "been there, done that", you can't possibly appreciate this technique. If you're suggesting that just "stretching your body out" is all you need for a good, strong "free takeoff" and "C", then you're misinformed. I've also been very clear that you need to have a good takeoff and "C" before you advance to the Jump to the Split. It doesn't sound like you're there yet.

hinge/swing/whip - i like the way you described this. So we have the hinge part which i think is a simulatneous hip and shoulder hinge. The swing is an end-product of what came before it and is not an active component as most of us now agree.

Yeh, I neglected to mention the shoulder fulcrum, but it's there too, along with the hip fulcrum. The Swing is really the whole action - from the initial Hinge (including a "lat pull") to the Whip, and then the final Hinge/Swing after you pass the chord.

For this reason, I've decided to consolidate "Hinge/Swing/Whip" down to just "Swing".

Run. Plant. Jump. Split. Swing. Extend. Fly. Clear. THERE IS NO ROCKBACK OR TUCK!

The whip is what? The swing being whipped through?

The whip is described in Post #14.

Fly - i never experienced this phase as a vaulter.

You won't experience this unless you JUMP off the ground!

Kirk

[volteur]

My apologies Kirk.

It is amazing how unclear sentences lead to big misinterpretations. I said 'this was more of stretching your body out than jumping'. Not very clear but i didn't say i didn't jump. I've LJed 7.69 and run 10.64 and if i popped a vault takeoff like i did a long jump takeoff there would be trouble - too vertical. So instead the jump was less important than the continuous foot to hand support. When i say stretching out the body this is just extending - like in the second last phase of the vault. Extending and jumping meant i was in a fully loaded position as my hand took support and there was more chance for continuity. The continuous chain model was being satisfied in this way. It also meant removing the passive phase that can occur after ground support (takeoff) before pole support satisfying the Agapit Manifesto as well .

?I timed the plant in conjunction with the pole drop. It's all explained in Post #11-12.

Mmm, i've been reading and thinking about your thread. I will definitely begin soon as there is one aspect that is fascinating me, the self-experimentation. If what you say is true, and i only say this because we all change our perceptions of the past to some degree and it was so long ago when you jumped. So I have to ask if your present thinking is somewhat different form the past? Has it evolved since you were jumping? (Or do you still?)

Even if it had altered to a degree, the way you self-experimented was exceptional, and i value self-experimentation above almost all things. To come to many of the conclusions you did takes a fair degree of sensitivity and an analytical mind as well as common sense. All essential qualities for the self-experimenter. So my hat is off to you!

I'm looking forward to going through it and trying to add my own perspective to many of the things you have brought up.

For this reason, I've decided to consolidate "Hinge/Swing/Whip" down to just "Swing".

Hinge/swing/whip? I like this part of it the most though. What about swing/hinge/whip? Maybe you need to invent a new word as i don't think a single one exists. Like swingwhip but better. Swingewhip

cheers

Pete

[KirkB]

Thanks for the clarification. We need to constantly be clear on what we mean, or misunderstandings can occur. It's so hard to describe a vault with text. Pics and vids are much better.

I've LJed 7.69 and run 10.64 and if i popped a vault takeoff like i did a long jump takeoff there would be trouble - too vertical.

Given that you must have had a decent run and good LJ "spring" to go 7.69, I don't understand the problem. Why wouldn't you "jump like hell" off the ground - to get the best Jump that you can possibly get. It sounds like your Jump was too passive. I don't see how you can be "too vertical" if you jump like a long jumper. If you jumped like a high jumper, then I could understand, but not LJ.

I will say, though, that if I continued long jumping during college while pole vaulting, it would have been tough to get the right takeoff angle on each. They're different enough to get you mixed up. (Despite their simularities during the run and takeoff, there don't seem to be any college LJ/PV athletes - other than decathletes. Maybe that's why? I wonder how decathletes coped with this, other than with a sub-optimal PV?) My body posture during the vault was an extreme forwards lean, whereas a long jumper must stay upright if he's going to land on his feet. I described this phonomenom in quite a bit of detail in "Post #13 - Jump to the Split Position - and Lift the Trail Leg Back".

You've convinced me to change my tagline once again. I thought I was done, but I think I'll change it from "Swing." to "Whip.". The reason is that I want a single word to describe the entire AGGRESSIVE, VIGOROUS hinge/swing/whip/hinge/swing action. "Swing." is too generic; too ordinary. "Whip." is less common, and emphasizes the speed of the trail leg - all the way from the Split to the start of the Extend (not at all passive, whereas "Swing" could be taken as somewhat passive) - so I'm coining that word to mean not only the short period at the bottom of the swing where you actually feel your ankle "whipping", but also to include the entire Swing/Hinge parts directly before and after the whip.

So now, it's:

Run. Plant. Jump. Split. Whip. Extend. Fly. Clear. THERE IS NO ROCKBACK OR TUCK!

I hope I'm not confusing too many people on this. Like I said at the top of this post, it's hard to capture the true essence of a vault with mere words.

Yeh, I like it now. I'm done. The "Jump. Split. Whip." sequence is the key to my Bryde Bend. The Extend and Fly are just outcomes of it. The Run was like Isaakson, and the Plant was like Roberts.

Remember that you don't get the Extend or the Fly if you don't have a strong "Jump. Split. Whip." The Run and Plant are important too, but IMHO it's better to have a mediocre run/plant and then a good jump than to have a good run/plant and then a mediocre jump. Especially if you're not a good sprinter to begin with.
Kirk

[volteur]

Thanks for the clarification. We need to constantly be clear on what we mean, or misunderstandings can occur. It's so hard to describe a vault with text. Pics and vids are much better.

i wish i could add little stick figures sometimes.

Given that you must have had a decent run and good LJ "spring" to go 7.69, I don't understand the problem. Why wouldn't you "jump like hell" off the ground - to get the best Jump that you can possibly get. It sounds like your Jump was too passive. I don't see how you can be "too vertical" if you jump like a long jumper. If you jumped like a high jumper, then I could understand, but not LJ.

For me long jump was quite different as i attempted to pop myself vertical at takeoff - ie jump my whole body upwards as well as extend it (stretch it out). IN the vault if i did this i lacked penetration. If i add more running off during the takeoff i penetrated better. I pushed upward maximally for sure i just didn;t 'jump' as if i was long jumping. Still the jump itself would have been say 7.20 if i let go of the pole and landed it. It wasn't far short but it was definitely slightly different from a pure LJ.

I will say, though, that if I continued long jumping during college while pole vaulting, it would have been tough to get the right takeoff angle on each. They're different enough to get you mixed up. (Despite their simularities during the run and takeoff, there don't seem to be any college LJ/PV athletes - other than decathletes. Maybe that's why? I wonder how decathletes coped with this, other than with a sub-optimal PV?) My body posture during the vault was an extreme forwards lean, whereas a long jumper must stay upright if he's going to land on his feet. I described this phonomenom in quite a bit of detail in "Post #13 - Jump to the Split Position - and Lift the Trail Leg Back".

I guess this is one point of disagreement - the forward lean at takeoff. Do you have apic of you doing this at takeoff or a vid i could see? I can;t imagine that the lean was all that much even though it probably felt like a lot. Mechanically, upright is the strongest position. In a engineering sense and in a biomechanical sense. As a decathlete what one wants to do is find the commonalities between different events and train those commonalities. Once the common factor is trained it then simulatenously affects a number of events. Time effectiveness. Eg take the fundamental that is the central axis of your body. The one that runs from head to toe through the middle of you. This is present in the throws, high jump and pole vault quite specifically. So if you can train this axis independently of the events, say in the gym doing some gymnastics, then all the events are going to be advantaged. There are many of these cross linked throughout the events of track and field. I think this perspective may be quite peculiar to a combined eventer but probably not exclusively.

The upshot of this is this central axis as one fundamental and possibly one of the major ones, means that upright is the best position to do things in. All the events are advantaged by finding a more accurate upright. Once i came across the concept of this and developed it through a martial art called Aikido that emphasises it strongly, it helped every event i did and continues to do so. So my experience has shown that anything but upright for track and field (sport, life?) is not as efficient as upright . The only disclaimer i should make is that upright works when we are standing at full height. As we lower from this height and our joints bend out of the way, naturally our back starts to tilt. This is still on the vertical axis except now our weight becomes balanced because our weight is still balanced around the central axis eg a squat. So the small lean forward of the MD runner is simply because they are a little lower to the ground than the sprinter. Because pole vault requires maximal extension at the end of the takeoff then our body is completely upright for best efficiency along this line of argumentation.

So i figure if you are willing to forgo the postural and mechanical advantages from being upright then there must be some other advantage that outweighs this loss, unless you disagree with my premise of course ha ha

cheers

pete

[KirkB]

I will say, though, that if I continued long jumping during college while pole vaulting, it would have been tough to get the right takeoff angle on each. They're different enough to get you mixed up. (Despite their simularities during the run and takeoff, there don't seem to be any college LJ/PV athletes - other than decathletes. Maybe that's why? I wonder how decathletes coped with this, other than with a sub-optimal PV?) My body posture during the vault was an extreme forwards lean, whereas a long jumper must stay upright if he's going to land on his feet. I described this phonomenom in quite a bit of detail in "Post #13 - Jump to the Split Position - and Lift the Trail Leg Back".

I guess this is one point of disagreement - the forward lean at takeoff. Do you have apic of you doing this at takeoff or a vid i could see? I can;t imagine that the lean was all that much even though it probably felt like a lot. Mechanically, upright is the strongest position. In a engineering sense and in a biomechanical sense. ... So i figure if you are willing to forgo the postural and mechanical advantages from being upright then there must be some other advantage that outweighs this loss, unless you disagree with my premise of course ...

You're exactly right about this. I don't have any pics or vid (I wish I did), but if you saw it on vid, you'd say that the lean wasn't all that much. I'm sure I over-emphasized it when I described it. This was to emphasize the fact that I purposely leaned forwards, just as I purposely lifted the trail leg back and up during the Split. It wasn't incidental - it was on purpose.

A more precise way of describing exactly how much forward lean I had is to describe my warmup drill. I took off from my takeoff point, jumped at whatever my target jumping trajectory was (I don't actually know this angle), and landed in the pit. Just before landing, I tucked my head down, and fell into a "natural" forwards roll. So whatever takeoff angle it took to do that, that's what forward lean and angle I had. I hope that explains it.

You can imagine that if I jumped at an angle such that I simply "let the pole sweep me off the ground", then during this warmup drill, I wouldn't make the pit. Instead, I would hit the front edge of the pit. So I definitely had a good vertical component to my Jump.

And you're right, there was "some other advantage". That was the whole point!

The advantage was that it put me into an optimal body posture to lift the trail leg back and up ... which in turn set me up for a tremendously powerful trail leg swing ... which in turn allowed me to whip the trail leg (especially just before passing the chord) ... which in turn put more energy into the pole ... and got me inverted sooner ... which in turn allowed me to shoot to a very powerful extension ... which in turn added even more energy into the pole (or you might say, it built the recoil of the pole to a crescendo) ... which in turn gave me a better fly-away.

Does that explain it better?

Kirk

[volteur]

Hi

Just to go back a bit first

I will say, though, that if I continued long jumping during college while pole vaulting, it would have been tough to get the right takeoff angle on each. They're different enough to get you mixed up. I wonder how decathletes coped with this, other than with a sub-optimal PV?) My body posture during the vault was an extreme forwards lean, whereas a long jumper must stay upright if he's going to land on his feet.

i totally agree that the two takeoffs are very different, not as much as between HJ and LJ but still significantly different that i know them very well. I have been working on the free takeoff since 1997 and even before that my coach was into blending the energy at the takeoff and not creating resistance. The reason for sub optimal PV from the decathletes is mostly a lack of time spent on it. The other factor is specific talent for vaulting but i think that is less of a factor. I think 5.60 should be standard for a sub 11 vaulter that can be gymnastic - at least under the petrov version that agapit is translating for us. I certainly could have done about that had i specialised. The final bit is the long jumper has to land on their feet yes but more importantly they have to remain balanced. I think balance is the more important factor to focus on because it's also essential to vaulting. And to me an imbalanced position is one that is not upright. In fact i try and remain upright for as long as possible until i invert. It's a battle sometimes to keep upright and balanced enough to have a free inversion instead of being somewhat trapped by the pole. I wasn't doing this when i was a vaulter, i was trying to rockback der

You're exactly right about this. I don't have any pics or vid (I wish I did), but if you saw it on vid, you'd say that the lean wasn't all that much. I'm sure I over-emphasized it when I described it. This was to emphasize the fact that I purposely leaned forwards, just as I purposely lifted the trail leg back and up during the Split. It wasn't incidental - it was on purpose.

i wish you had as well although we do have that one black and white pic of you halfway up the vault. Would love to analyse that.

A more precise way of describing exactly how much forward lean I had is to describe my warmup drill. I took off from my takeoff point, jumped at whatever my target jumping trajectory was (I don't actually know this angle), and landed in the pit. Just before landing, I tucked my head down, and fell into a "natural" forwards roll. So whatever takeoff angle it took to do that, that's what forward lean and angle I had. I hope that explains it.

Good description. I've got a good image in my head. To achieve this would require quite a forward lean at takeoff. Are you saying this was the same as when you took off? A parabola leading head first that takes you back to the ground steeply enough to allow for a tuck and roll. Is that it?

I am resisting getting into the active swing back bit yet as this takeoff thing is still not really clear yet. But the main part of my last post you didn't cover. The mechanics/engineering bit which is quite necessary for stability in structures and we are one of them.

cheers Kirk

Pete

[KirkB]

Good description. I've got a good image in my head. To achieve this would require quite a forward lean at takeoff. Are you saying this was the same as when you took off? A parabola leading head first that takes you back to the ground steeply enough to allow for a tuck and roll. Is that it?

Yeh, that's roughly it, with one slight correction: Your CoM follows the parabolic curve, but your body extremities don't have to. You can rotate forwards a bit by tucking.

But to be perfectly honest, I do recall on occassion that I put my hands down to touch the pit and force the forwards roll. It was 36 years ago, so I can't remember how often I did a "natural" forwards roll, and how often I had to put my hands down to force it. My best recollection is that I usually didn't put my hands down. And I think my actual vault trajectory was almost always followed the "natural" path.

Keep in mind the physics involved during the "Jump. Split." ...

Any projectile needs to have a trajectory "fairly close" to its CoM or CoG, to follow the flight path of the parabolic curve that you refer to.

For a shot put, that's easy - no matter which way you rotate it in your hand before you throw it, the CoM is "perfect", and will not cause the object to "to off center" during its flight.

For a javelin, it's a little trickier. (I hope I'm describing this right - I wasn't a very good javelin thrower.) You're holding the object close to the CoM, but it's not symmetric. It's a cyclinder, and there's aerodynamics involved (you must consider the influence of air resistance on the object). So when you throw it, you must be careful to throw it THRU its tip (whilst spinning it). Otherwise, the object (your body) will not "have the right posture" to soar thru the air efficiently - tip first and tail last. Although you're actually holding the javelin very near the CoM, the fact that you must direct the tip PRECISELY in a certain direction means that it's as if the CoM is a bit forwards from your grip.

It's easy to see an extremely bad javelin throw. You've all seen a javelin stall, then land tail end first, well short of its intended flight. Sometimes you can blame that on the wind, but given that the athlete should understand the influence of the wind as he throws the javelin, the root cause is almost always because the trajectory (and spin?) upon release was incorrect. (Sorry, some of this javelin physics theory is unrelated to the PV. I just didn't want to gloss over the differences.)

For an athlete - in either the PV or LJ - you're pushing off the ground BEHIND the CoM. In a sense, this is like the javelin analogy. So when you Jump, you must be careful to jump at an optimum angle. Otherwise, the object will not "have the right posture" when the pole hits the back of the box; when you finish your "Split."; and when your swing must begin.

I hope you understand the similarities (and differences) between these 3 types of objects. Do you see what I'm saying?

So for PV, most vaulters and coaches would think that you must push off the ground EXACTLY BEHIND the CoM. I think that's what you're implying as optimal, Volteur.

In my case, I purposely leaned forwards just a tad, and pushed off the ground just a bit OFF my CoM. That's what gave me the body posture to stretch/lift my trail leg back/up, without misaligning my body posture. Hypothetically, if I had let go of the pole and followed the natural flight path (parabolic curve) into the pit, I would end up doing a forwards roll.

This is analogous to the javelin, but not to the shot put. I of course didn't defy the laws of physics - I LEVERAGED them!

[Added later]
Hmm ... I didn't really state my point very well. Forget the javelin analogy, here's what I meant to say:

I jumped off the ground at a fairly optimal takeoff angle - perhaps a tad on the low side, reaching a bit forwards with my arms. Then, when I stretched to the Split, I lifted my trail leg back and up, and my top hand did the equal and opposite reaction thing (Newton's Law of Motion). So my top hand WHILE IN THE SPLIT (not before) was at the optimal, high-as-I-could-reach posture. I guess what I should have said long ago is that if I jumped directly to the optimal top-hand-posture, then once I did the Split, the top hand would be too far back above/behind my head, and I wouldn't have the "forwards body tilt" that was the whole point of the action - to raise the trail leg back and UP as far as possible. Not just stretched - hyper-stretched! Does that explain it better now?
[end of edit]

And as has already been discussed, this forwards lean (which I earlier described as extreme - but was only extreme compared to other vaulters) was probably only a few degrees - not enough to take any significant height away from a tall Plant and strong Jump.

Does this make sense to you now?

Kirk