Trail Leg- Tuck or Petrov?

[exvaulter]

OK Kirk, I accept your answer about how the change of the Center of Gravity affects the pressure (and consequeltly bend) on the pole. The laws of prysics rule.
I was just testing a thought I had, and as you say, it's just the opposite of what I suggested.

My real object in this issue on the problems that Tuck-and-shoot creates for vaulters is to clarify what explains the big difference in the vertikal lift that Bubka had, compared to the lift that other vaulters can get. All of you guys have seen the video with Bubka clearing 601 in Athens 2001 (see also the "icon picture" of sign "Altius"), and from this you can clearly see that he reaches a maximum height of maybe 6.25. How is this possible? This is the crucial question.

In my opinion "Tuck-and-shoot vaulters" can never be even close to the vertical lift Bubka had. Is the best way to break Bubka:s records to carbon copy his technique, or was Bubka unique in speed and strength so every vaulter has to find his own way ?

In my opinion Bubka was not so superior physically that it explains why he did what he did. It was his technique that was "almost perfect". His coach Petrov can certainly explain why the results of all other vaulters still are miles behind. And no trend for improvement is at sight. Why has no coach managed to help a single vaulter vault even close to Bubka? The questions I rise certainly are fundamental, if we want the vaulters to improve.

One interesting thing about Bubka's vaulting was tis: He always made maximum vaults, also at lower heights, often with Incredibly impressive vaults at 5.60-5.70.
Other vaulters tend to adapt their vaulting to the crossbar, gradually going more vertical when the bar goes up. Why? I think the reason is that he got so much energy that he had smal problems getting past the bar; he normally didn't drop down on the bar. I think he would have failed if he had tried to limit his vaults.

Another interesting thing that you can see from still pictures of vaulters (see Stabhoch.com and choose "Reihe") is this: Bubka managed to get into a 100% vertical body position, while all other vaulters manage only "close to vertical". When the pole whips back this means a great difference; your body will never get the tremendous lift if you are in an almost vertical position.

Hopefully you don't find that I raise too many questions relating to the "Tuck or Petrov method discussion"

I have not read the book "Beginner to Bubka", maybe the answers are to be found there?

Exvaulter

[altius]

"I have not read the book "Beginner to Bubka", maybe the answers are to be found there?" Yes I believe that some of them are - but dont worry if you have not read BTB2 -you are in good company I believe. Incidentally in Jamaica Bubka said re the 6.01m jump in Athens he would have cleared a bar at 6.40m and on two other jumps in that competition he would have cleared 6.34 and 6.32 - which suggests that your notion that he went hard on every jump is confirmed. However be prepared for a rush of naysayers to his claim following this post

[volteur]

no nay sayer here Altius

from that 1997 Worlds i did hear his CofG went 6.50 and Tarasov's went 6.21 in his silver medal jump

what also amazed me is he only did two leadup comps and both were 5.60.

does my memory serve me correctly here?

PS Altius - it's time for me to buy your book now i have a job and can afford it, but i"m in New Zealand so can you tell me how to go about this please.

Part of the reason is that one of the roles i have at this Institute where i now work is Head Event Coach of Jumps. The employed Pole Vault coach is a brilliant up and coming coach, an ex-elite gymnast (NZ rep) who came out and did some aths a few years ago and ran 10.90 and jumped over 7m pretty much straight away. He then won back to back NZ vault titles. Anyway now he is coaching at the Institute and within 18 months has trained a 14 year old girl to 3.95 last season. Pretty awesome stuff. So i wish to help him as much as possible with whatever knowledge i have that he is yet to possess (as he is quite new to athletics but has an awesome grounding in gymnsatics and is already a wonderful coach with a huge future). I hope i haven't embarrassed you JM.

So how do i get a copy?

[powerplant42]

Neovault.com, pvp store, beginnertobubka.com...

[KirkB]

OK Kirk, I accept your answer about how the change of the Center of Gravity affects the pressure (and consequeltly bend) on the pole. The laws of physics rule.
I was just testing a thought I had, and as you say, it's just the opposite of what I suggested.

Exvaulter, now that we’re in synch on the physics, let’s focus on the crux of your post: “Why was Bubka so superior?”

I like your observations. I’m in the Petrov model camp (and in the keep-the-lead-knee up camp – but more willing to listen to SOME style differences this year than back in 1971-72), and I think Bubka was the best instance of the Petrov model ever. There will be more – it’s just a matter of time. But he’s the best example of it so far.

To your point on him getting so much clearance on all his jumps, I think that’s a side-effect of the Petrov model …

You figure out your “competition energy level” during warm-ups, then get on the pole that’s the best match to how you feel and which way the wind is blowing. The heavier pole the better. No sense in underperforming with a soft pole, else you’ll have to adjust to a bigger pole later in the comp. So just use the best pole you can throughout the comp. Now when you run, plant, takeoff, swing, you do that to the best of your ability (for that day) too. If you don’t, bad things will happen, and you won’t finish the vault. You’ll stall and bail. The point of your early vaults is to increase your self-confidence for the day, and to iron out any minor technical issues. You won’t accomplish these points on a pole that’s too soft or a grip that’s too low. You need to go “all out” (or as they say in Texas Hold’Em nowadays: “all in”).

So once the bottom half of the vault is done properly, the top half is a piece of cake. You just do what comes naturally – hang on, and pull like hell!

I hope this clarifies why he blasts off the top of the pole - even on low heights.

Some may argue that the same goes for tuck/shooters, but I think they have a better view of the bar, and so they shoot for it – and no higher (just a guess – no first-hand experience). I wonder if the pole selection of Petrovers varies less within a meet than tuck/shooters? That might validate or disprove my suspicions here. I’m betting that Petrovers use less poles per meet.

I have noticed, though, that quite often Bubka doesn’t “finish” his vaults. He seems to let go far too early, and then the pole flings off to the left, whilst he flies over the bar with room to spare. i.e. He doesn’t seem to do much of a pull/push off the pole. Does the pole “fling off” that way because it’s not fully straightened when he lets go?

I may be wrong, but I look at that as his way of showing off. He knows he nailed the bottom half of his vault, so he knows that he already has sufficient momentum to clear the bar. Kinda like Bolt jogging across the finish line.

At higher attempts, it seems to me that he has a much better pull/push off the pole. Am I right about this? I haven’t analyzed it to death, I didn't take note of the bar height on each vid I see.

I have not read the book "Beginner to Bubka", maybe the answers are to be found there?

Just to give you a heads-up, Altius (whose post you see on this page) is Alan Launder, a co-author of the book. You will get the Petrov model viewpoint from BTB2, with some minor mentioning of the "tuck and shoot" method. For example, on page 33 there's a page (or less) called 'The 'tuck and shoot' myth'. I agree with everything that Altius says in that section. They only problem is that I haven't heard the opposing view, from someone that's lived the tuck-and-shoot experience!

I'll be interested to read Tim Mack's new book. I don't know what Tim talks about, but I'm hoping he'll talk about more than just the Petrov model. He might not have much about technique in his book at all. I'll ask him that on his book thread.

Altius has written a very good book, well worth the read, but if you’re looking for an impartial view of both sides of the coin, I’m afraid that this PVP forum is as good as it gets. Browse around for other threads with similar titles (you hit on a good one here). Also use the Search feature to find stuff, once you figure out the key words, like “tuck” “power vault” and “rockback”. The “what models are out there” thread is good too. But I guess you already know that - that’s probably how you found this thread.

You will find many, many posters (the vast majority) saying that the Petrov model is best. I think so too. But you owe it to yourself to decide on the evidence, rather than on just blind faith, or going with the majority.

In his Pole Vault Manifesto thread, Agapit (Roman Botcharnikov) describes the “5.40 model”. This is an enhancement on the Petrov model – apparently so much so that it deserves it’s own model name - although Altius hints at that model on page 34 of BTB2.

Tim McMichael has done a good job of describing his instance (and Joe Dial's) of the “power vault” in his Oklahoma Manifesto thread. I think of Tim's style as the Oklahoma model. It's not pure tuck-and-shoot, and it's not pure "power vault". Tim's thread is the best "opposing view" thread that I've discovered on PVP. Tim has a very nice, long trail leg swing, and even a backswing (a la my personal technique of 1971-72). After that nice long hinge, THEN he cowboys to keep the pole rotating to vertical. Tim can explain the difference between a pure tuck-and-shooter or power vaulter and the Oklahoma model much better than I can. He's lived it!

And if you want some comedy relief, read the Texas Pole Vault Manifesto (but DON’T fall prey to its advice – just do the opposite of whatever they advise)!

I'm a little disappointed in not finding much defense of tuck/shooters on this forum. I hope it's not becuz the Petrovers have intimidated them so much that they're afraid to speak out. (You WILL find instances of this!) I hope it's becuz they themselves find it hard to defend their technique on its merits. You will make your own mind up on these matters, as you browse. We should all feel free to speak our mind on this forum, without fear of public ridicule.

Hopefully you don't find that I raise too many questions relating to the "Tuck or Petrov method discussion".

Don't apologize for asking questions. That's what this forum is for. Some posters say that such-and-such a topic has been "beat to death", inferring that they're not going to talk about it anymore. That's fine for them, but I find that there's dozens of ways to pose a question, and each one requires a slightly different way of answering.

IMHO, there's no such thing as a stupid question. If someone thinks a thread is covering old ground, then it's their choice to read it or not to read it. It would be more helpful if these pundits simply quoted where the info can be found.

This forum is about vaulters and coaches helping vaulters and coaches. I hope you agree that it's doing a good job of that! Welcome aboard!

Kirk

[KirkB]

... in Jamaica Bubka said re the 6.01m jump in Athens he would have cleared a bar at 6.40m and on two other jumps in that competition he would have cleared 6.34 and 6.32 - which suggests that your notion that he went hard on every jump is confirmed.

I don’t usually buy stories about what might have / would have / should have / could have happened if only the bar was set to a certain phenomenal height. If that was the case, then ALL of our PRs just went up – perhaps to phenomenal, unbelievable heights in some cases!

The rules of the game – the same for everyone – are that records can only be broken based on the height of the bar when the jump is made.

But Altius, in the interests of "balanced reporting", I must make your point even more emphatic …

There is no doubt in my mind that Bubka never reached his full potential, and I base this opinion mostly on seeing pics of some of his phenomenal clearances. Your avatar shows one of them.

To agree with you even more than the way you put it, Bubka wasn’t just making boastful statements about himself. Rather, there were apparently a couple Japanese biomechanics that revealed their calculations of the 6.40m "clearance", etc., and Bubka just [excitedly] agreed with them. I think that puts more credibility into these phenomenal estimates than if it was just Bubka talking about himself. I remember reading about that in BTB2 - I forget the page #, and I can't seem to find it now.

However be prepared for a rush of naysayers to his claim following this post

No naysayer here either. But you get my point on the "balanced reporting", eh? Especially in my reply to exvaulter.

Kirk

[KirkB]

Volteur, just a quick question about this:

… an ex-elite gymnast (NZ rep) who came out and did some aths a few years ago and ran 10.90 and jumped over 7m pretty much straight away.

Was that 7m in LJ or PV?

Powerplant, NZ is New Zealand. He's better off buying it in Australia, where shipping charges won't drain his piggy-bank!

Altius, why don't you strike a deal with Volteur, and ship him an autographed copy? After you get his cheque, of course!

Wouldn't it be worth it to you, if only to have Volteur [FINALLY] go to all those pages you've quoted him over the years (and for him to actually READ the text)?

Kirk

[volteur]

Volteur, just a quick question about this: Was that 7m in LJ or PV?

oops did i write that - it's meant to be kept a secret until later in the Southern Summer. Seriously he is very good and training again after a bad foot injury but it's his young protege that is the business at the moment - keep your eyes peeled.

Powerplant, NZ is New Zealand. He's better off buying it in Australia, where shipping charges won't drain his piggy-bank!

Altius, why don't you strike a deal with Volteur, and ship him an autographed copy? After you get his cheque, of course!

Wouldn't it be worth it to you, if only to have Volteur [FINALLY] go to all those pages you've quoted him over the years (and for him to actually READ the text)?

Kirk

ah i'm buying it anyway and maybe when Altius does his seminar in Melbourne (when is it scheduled?) i will be around to get it autographed first hand - but he has put me onto someone in NZ to chase up for a copy and i'm pretty sure our vault coach might want his own copy as well - maybe the Institute can buy it for him. I have to be fair to myself over this and actually have a copy of this 'bible' of polevaulting on my bookshelf. (but i don't know what it is going to set me back)

Kirk, just going to your post above:

similarly, if not the same as you, i'm of the progressively accelerating runup, free-takeoff, lead knee held up, pike to inversion and double arm pull to clearance version - pretty much what Agapit lays out in his Manifesto and some of it, especially the inversion is a result of his manifesto so thanks again. (Kirk i don't think there is a 't' in Roman's surname)

I reckon that Bubka doesn't let go early to show off, i reckon he has to let go because he is accelerating past the pole too quickly to hold on any longer than he already does. What ya reckon Kirk? There is one vault where Bubka is wearing the blue and yellow of Ukraine in which this is so clear (it may be 97 Worlds but i think it was earlier) The view is from side-on (coronal plane )

i would look it up myself but youtube aint working so good from this airport internet thing

[NZ Vaulter]

Volteur,

Will bring copy of BTB2 in on Monday for you!!
Have both BTB and BTB2

cya Monday

JM

[volteur]

JM

you've been keeping it from me! haha

I'll be back on Wed so i'll swing down to the indoor track and find you late arvo. Also what is this thing with the back uprise? Can you give us the proper name or description?


Altius, i'll still get onto Les Mills and grab a copy for myself. I think the time and effort you have put into your own book deserves it to be bought. I would hope for the same if i ever write something of my own one day in my distant future.

cheers guys

Volteur

[rainbowgirl28]

JM

you've been keeping it from me! haha

I'll be back on Wed so i'll swing down to the indoor track and find you late arvo. Also what is this thing with the back uprise? Can you give us the proper name or description?


Altius, i'll still get onto Les Mills and grab a copy for myself. I think the time and effort you have put into your own book deserves it to be bought. I would hope for the same if i ever write something of my own one day in my distant future.

cheers guys

Volteur

http://www.polevaultpower.com/media/vid ... anddrills/

[KirkB]

Thanks, Rainbow Girl - a picture is worth a thousand words!

The drill that Volteur is apparently referring to is the "Back Uprise to Freehip" drill - as nicely demo'd by Dub Jones.

I've never tried that particular drill. In fact, I'd be a little chicken to try it, because swinging backwards after stalling out of a giant scares me. It seems to me that your fingers wouldn't stay firm on the bar. But like I say, I've never tried it, and I see that Dub had no problems executing it. I guess you just have to train your fingers to keep a firm grip, so they don't unravel.

The drill that I always did instead of this one was the "Kip Cast Freehip", exactly as per how Dub demonstrates it. No fear of slipping off the bar on that one!

Now that we have our drill names squared away, I'll get back to trying to answer Volteur's original questions and comments re the Back Uprise. I'm hoping that he's not thinking that there's a Back Uprise step in pole vaulting, but we'll see.

Kirk