We are doomed. Repent and ask for forgiveness.

This is a forum to discuss advanced pole vaulting techniques. If you are in high school you should probably not be posting or replying to topics here, but do read and learn.

Do you repent?

I do
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68%
I don't
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Total votes: 71

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KirkB
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Unread postby KirkB » Sat Jun 14, 2008 4:40 am

Long thread - here's the Reader's Digest summary version, tossing in my own comments and interpretations here and there ...

Apr 20, 2007 - Agapit started the discussion by declaring Bubka a 20'+ prophet that we're ignoring. We're not following the Petrov/Bubka model - thus we're all "sinners".

He predicts M WR 21'+ and F WR 18'+ is within reach with this model, but pessimistically doesn't think this will happen anytime soon, as we "don't get it" yet - we're doomed to mediocre heights (If you can call 19' mediocre!).

He declares himself as an apostle of the Petrov/Bubka model (I think). Later (Apr 24, 2007), he exposes Altius as the other apostle.

Really, the premise of Roman's post is that today's tuck/shoot and drive vaulters are doing it all wrong. They should swing in the "continuous motion" (chain theory) path.

OUVaulterUSAF asks 3 questions:
1. When does the swing begin, and why?
2. How could one increase the speed of the swing and generate more energy at the same time?
3. Does swing need to be shortened at the hips and why? My note: This question never does get answered.

Apparently, Agapit planted these questions in the Pole Vault Manifesto for someone to ask, and OUVaulterUSAF obliged him.

Agapit says that the swing begins immediately after the pressure of the pole hitting the back of the box is felt by the top hand, and your takeoff foot has left the ground.

My note: The latter point is undeniable, since the trail leg cannot swing if it's not yet airborne. I will, however, dispute that the swing MUST begin as early as he states. If you kick your trail leg back (as Tim McMichael advocates in his "drive vault", as as I did in 1971-72), the swing is delayed. Predictably, Agapit may counter that you're still swinging, you're just swinging slower. If pressed, I would concede this point.

Agapit then asks/answers the next question: What does the vaulter do when the swing begins? If you swing too early, you stall. His answer: Free takeoff!

He then poses his own followup question: How do you stay behind the chord of the pole so that you don't stall?

For brevity, I'll skip his discussion of the L-position. I don't claim to understand his logic about this.

A discussing of pushing/pulling/rowing with the bottom arm ensues.

In riddle-like fashion, Agapit and OUVaulterUSAF discuss when/how to pull with the bottom arm. Agapit says that ideally, you begin pulling when you start swinging.

My note: Hmm ... I always worked on PUSHING with the top hand after takeoff, and RELAXING the bottom hand - not PULLING. Just using the bottom arm for balance - no push, no pull. By initiating this top hand pushing action as a natural extension of the plant/jump, I got maximal height to fulcrum from when the swing began. And then by CONTINUING to PUSH (and at the same time driving the chest forward and letting the top hand be stretched back (over my head), I maintained as long of a swing as I humanly could. This accentuated my drive into the pole, and delayed my forwards trail leg swing quite nicely. From top hand to trail leg foot, I was like an elastic band under pressure, ready to snap/whip. But the PULLING with the bottom hand doesn't start immediately (in my "continuous motion" style). It starts after your swing is delayed by the kick-back. Then, as the pole is "sinking", you begin to pull with your bottom hand. But it's still not a true "pull". In whip-like fashion, you're snapping the trail leg thru and THEN pulling with the lats. OK, that's not quite right either. You're pulling SIMULTANEOUS to whipping the trail leg. It's not as easy to explain this as to demonstrate the gymnastic motions involved on a highbar. Very simply, just do a one-legged swing on a highbar, and you'll FEEL what I mean. Notice that you don't pull until you're thru the chord of the swing under the highbar and your hips are rising. Bear in mind that the pole is angled differently than a highbar. On a highbar, you do a two-handed motion, keeping both elbows straight until you're inverted. Whereas on the pole, the top hand does this, whilst the bottom hand is pulling. I hope I didn't lose you on this dissertation. I do agree with Agapit, however, that you pull with the bottom arm very early in the swing. Just not quite as early as he implies.

As proof of pulling with the bottom hand, Agapit suggests studying Bubka videos.

Carolina21 obliges him, posting a nice series of 6.11 still photos.

My note: Be careful with the "chicken or the egg" analysis problem. His bottom arm LOOKS like it's pulling, so it must be pulling. Not! You could just as easily argue that his bottom arm looks like it's pushing, so it must be pushing. i.e. The natural bend of the pole moves away from the vaulter. But the vaulter is still gripping the pole with his bottom hand, so of course it's going to move with the pole. But is he pushing the pole, or is the pole pulling his hand? You see the chicken/egg problem? Same goes for pulling. I say that it LOOKS like he's pulling because his trail leg is whipping thru, causing an inversion which in turn brings the bottom hand closer to the body. Is that pulling? Well, yes and no!

Yes, he is pulling. No, he's not INITIATING the inversion with his bottom arm. Instead, it starts with the trail leg whip, which ripples up the body. As I conceded above, it's actually a bit of both - trail leg whipping whilst bottom arm pulling. But I claim that this action is INITIATED by the trail leg - not the bottom arm. Therefore, there's a delay between the trail leg swinging forward and the bottom arm pulling - if ever so slight and subtle. Don't try to analyze this to death. Just get onto a highbar and FEEL it!

Continuing on ...

The discussion drifts to PUSHING with the bottom arm. Vaul3rb0y quotes Tim McMichael as advocating a "slight" push with the bottom arm to initiate the pole-bend. Agapit counters by calling Tim's "drive vault" a derogative term intended for sinners - blasphemy!

With that accusation against his "drive vault" (that he describes so eloquently in his Oklahoma Manifesto post), Tim can't resist joining the discussion. As another armchair vaulter (aren't we all?!), he critiques Bubka's early years as "collapsing" his bottom arm, but Agapit quite rightly counters that the arm isn't collapsing. Rather, there was no free takeoff, so the pole didn't bend as much.

My note: You see the chicken/egg problem here again?

At the most technical, detailed level, Tim is right. A very, very slight pressure with the bottom hand starts the bend - maybe. A fiberglass pole is an imperfect column, so doesn't really need a catalyst to initiate the bend. It will bend on its own, simply by the force applied from the top hand.

The pressure needed is either nil (in which case no coaching is needed to the vaulter), or so very slight that coaching is unecessary. In fact, it would be a disservice to tell a vaulter that he must push slightly with the bottom hand, as that will undoubtedly cause the vaulter to exaggerate this action - to the point of slowing down the swing, and possibliy - in the extreme case - to the point of stalling.

IMHO, THIS IS ONE OF THE MOST MISUNDERSTOOD PARTS OF THE VAULT BY COACHES AND ATHLETES ALIKE. The singlemost cause of this misunderstanding is misinterpretation of vids.

No one said this, but I will add that the direction of the bend is not guided by the bottom hand either. It will find its own "path of least resistance".

Vaultman18: "Pushing is a trap I know it."

My note: I know it too. I read Dr. Richard Ganslen's Pole Vault Mechnanics in high school, and took it too literally. I pushed with the bottom arm, and stalled. To get better penetration, I pushed harder, and stalled more. This wasted my last 3 years of high school vaulting, without getting past 14-3. Not too bad in the 1960s era, but no one needs to fall into that trap today, with all the information now available to modern vaulters.

DON'T PUSH WITH THE BOTTOM HAND AT ALL!!! It might bend the pole, but will stop your swing, and you'll stall out.

LET THE TOP HAND TAKE ALL YOUR WEIGHT, AND JUST USE YOUR BOTTOM ARM TO BALANCE THE POLE!!!

When my UW coach (Ken Shannon) taught me to relax the bottom arm (after takeoff, and thru the start of the swing), at first I refused. I told him the pole wouldn't bend - just as many other naysayers have said on this thread. Unconvinced, I tried a short run, soft pole ... and to my surprise, it bent! We then worked this back to a longer run and stiffer pole, until I got out of the habit of pushing. It took over a year until I completely licked this severe technical flaw.

Incidentally, the poles in my day had a slight prebend, which we always marked and aimed towards the corner of the box. Maybe that prebend helped to solve the "pole is a column that needs a catalytical action to bend" problem?

Moving on ...

CaptainFalcon43 correctly states that the bottom arm is used just to stabilize the pole, and asks for confirmation of this.

My note: He's right.

fx asks: What's going on with the top arm at this time? (He means whilst the bottom arm is pulling, at the start of the swing - immediately after takeoff.)

The apostle answers: "It is simply gripping the pole until the center of gravity of the body passes the chord and then it adds to the acceleration of the rotation, but it does not pull until after complete inversion."

My note: As usual, he's right. I fixed his typos, but I cannot improve anything else about his explanation of this. It's dead on.

A silly argument ensues about vaulting one-handed. Tim even spikes up a films himself vaulting one-handed in his backyard, and posts his vid on Apr 24, 2007! Nice! But unfortunately, he doesn't release his bottom arm until AFTER the pole-bend begins.

Fast forward ...

That same day, Agapit answers more good observations from OUVaulterUSAF, trackpole, master, and Tim. I think his answers make sense (as usual), but there's not much dissention, so I won't elaborate. But read the posts of that day - they're worth it!

Agapit ends the day by thanking Tim for his bravery in the one-handed video clip, but at the same time taunts him for lack of a free takeoff. (paraphrasing)

Tim and Agapit are getting along beautifully at this point of the thread. Quite something, considering the "drive vault" (Dial model) vs. the Petrov model. Tim's very analytical, and open to new levels of understanding. Agapit's got the "perfect vault" envisioned, and is releasing it slowly - post by post, one clarification at a time.

Spencer Chang, MD asks about negative bend. This is the bounce on the apron as a consequence of dropping the pole.

My note: Maybe that bounce turns into the initiation of the positive bend? Just a thought. But personally, I didn't aim for the apron. I aimed for the back of the box. And I'm guessing that from time to time, others would hit the back of the box first - without bouncing on the apron. So this bounce doesn't really explain why the pole ALWAYS bends away and to the side off the vaulter, without any guidance from the bottom arm.

The next day, the discussion drifts to free takeoff ... then free pole-drop ...

Tim surprises us with another self-vid - this time with a free takeoff! A one-hander, and then a two-hander! A true scientist, getting engrossed right into his own expirements! Kudos!

Agapit mentions that bamboo poles bent 12-20".

My note: I used one in Jr. High, and it's true. I actually ended up breaking it - not unlike a typical fiberglass pole-break. That was before I tried to push - I never tried that 'til I got my first fiberglass pole in Grade 10. Also, tapered "Swedish steel" poles bent too. Just so fast you couldn't see it very well with the untrained eye. I was never strong enough or fast enough to bend steel, but I've seen others do it. OK, I'm aging myself. :)

May 16, 2007 to May 27, 2008 - not a single post! Did someone reset the system clock, or did we all wake up after hibernating for 12.5 months? :)

The discussion has digressed to Texas Hold'Em, and it's as if the players time-warped for one full year. And with 5 outs in his straight, Agapit claims to have won $175. Bird-feed for sitting at the poker table for over a year! :)

Tim gets back on his relentless insistence that the bottom arm is "passively resisting" at the start of the swing.

June 9, 2008 - Swtvault asks about Brad Walker "exploiting the left arm".

My note: I think Brad's sped up his trail leg swing to the point where it LOOKS LIKE he's pulling with the left. It's that snap/whipping action that I mentioned earlier, except that Brad doesn't kick his trail leg back. His pole is much stiffer than mine, so he has no time to do that. BTW, his 6.04 wasn't a "continuous motion" - it was a swing-to-tuck-then-shoot. Much different than today's bent-leg tuck/shooters.

June 9-12 - Tim and Agapit are bantering again, over the initiating of the pole bend at the start of the swing by a subtle bottom-hand push. Picky, picky.

June 13 - After talking to Bruce Caldwell about it, Tim concedes to Agapit that bottom arm passive resistance is unecessary. "You need it for balance, but with a great takeoff, the pole will bend without it."

Whew! And this was the Reader's Digest version! :)
Last edited by KirkB on Sat Jun 14, 2008 2:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread postby vault3rb0y » Sat Jun 14, 2008 11:27 am

That post was not toward anyone, i am just still not convinced abou the no bottom arm pressure. I dont want anyone getting injured, and to me, doing nothing with your bottom arm seems like a good way to do just that holding at 16'10", even with a great take. If we have found a way to not use the bottom arm, great. Thats half of the issue to me. Heres the second part- what makes a push for a small time detrimental during chest extension and drive off the ground, before you swing?

It seems that the whole action of the bottom arm we are relating to helping with the velocity of the swing. So what about before we swing, during the (should be) short drive phase just as we leave the ground? What are the downsides of pushing during this phase?

If we can prove that not using the bottom arm is possible: Check
And
Pushing the bottom arm just after take off is detrimental:

Logic has us (or me) beat and we can change our (or my) perception of the perfect vault. I worry i can answer my own question though, are we saying that in a perfect plant, there is no pole bend during which we are not already swinging?
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Unread postby vaultman18 » Sat Jun 14, 2008 2:27 pm

So what about before we swing, during the (should be) short drive phase just as we leave the ground? What are the downsides of pushing during this phase?


There is no should be drive phase in this model. To push or drive is passive and undesired.

The down side is loss of time and potential height.

You must look at the vault as if there is no bend or just as you would if you are stiff pole vaulting. The fact that the pole bends is a product of a correct take-off.

I dont want anyone getting injured, and to me, doing nothing with your bottom arm seems like a good way to do just that holding at 16'10", even with a great take.



What do you mean "nothing"? I think Agapit has made it clear what the bottom arm should do. With a great take-off holding at 16'10" it will be as if the vaulter is stiff pole vaulting with a 12'6" grip (guess) surly a vaulter gripping 16'10 can stiff pole with a 12'6" grip. So where is this danger you speak of? And how will pushing help the vaulter avoid it?

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Unread postby vaultman18 » Sat Jun 14, 2008 2:31 pm

Tim McMichael wrote:Okay, I give up. I'm having to work too hard to hold my position. I just spent some time talking to Bruce Caldwell who has been making poles forever, and he assured me that with a great takeoff the bottom hand did not need to be on the pole at all. So, I give. Congrats Roman. :)


Tim you are a true gentleman. :yes:

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Unread postby Rhino » Sat Jun 14, 2008 4:02 pm

KirkB, that is one great summation! Thanks!

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Unread postby volteur » Sat Jun 14, 2008 11:45 pm

Rhino wrote:KirkB, that is one great summation! Thanks!


thanks Kirk.

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Unread postby vault3rb0y » Sun Jun 15, 2008 12:12 pm

vaultman18 wrote:
What do you mean "nothing"? I think Agapit has made it clear what the bottom arm should do. With a great take-off holding at 16'10" it will be as if the vaulter is stiff pole vaulting with a 12'6" grip (guess) surly a vaulter gripping 16'10 can stiff pole with a 12'6" grip. So where is this danger you speak of? And how will pushing help the vaulter avoid it?


I was speaking of the 'one handed' vault. It seems this one was put to rest, and the column physics does not apply for some reason to the pole.... but i kept thinking.


I have been letting it sit in my mind for a while, honestly trying to figure it out the past weeks. I had said something earlier in this thread and when i thought on it again a lightbulb went off, so here goes-
I referred to tims attempt at a 1 handed plant, and said that the pole did not bend when he left the ground, only once he swung. If in this model there is no drive phase, as long as you swing as soon as, and i mean literally, the pole hits the back of the box, the pole should bend even when you are pulling with the bottom arm. But if there is any point during which the pole is in contact with the box and the vaulter is NOT swinging, the pole would not bend if he/she was pulling. Is this on the right track?
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Unread postby vaultman18 » Sun Jun 15, 2008 2:41 pm

But if there is any point during which the pole is in contact with the box and the vaulter is NOT swinging, the pole would not bend if he/she was pulling. Is this on the right track?


If you have a good take-off and you are in the right position you will swing weather you want to or not as long as you are not pushing. The key to this is the take-off as you might have figured.

This does not mean this can be accomplished on every vault but the intention is there. If you intend to push even for very little time it is a mistake. Remember Agapit is interested in a world record not a 19' jump. (I do not speak for agapit)

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Unread postby vault3rb0y » Sun Jun 15, 2008 6:22 pm

But it does require a swing, automatic or not, to begin the pole bend?

My point is that is seems like it would be an extremely hard way to train, with no push. If you have any drive phase even though you intend not to, the pole will not bend during that time. I can see why it is such a daunting thing for a vaulter to imagine!
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Unread postby golfdane » Mon Jun 16, 2008 2:42 am

Tim McMichael wrote:It seems that until I say that a pole can be bent with the top hand alone BEFORE it touches the back of the box, he is not going to tell us where this is leading. Frustrating


I doubt anyone has claimed that to be possible :)

The bottom hand makes it easier for the pole to start bending, but the goal is not to create as big a bend as possible. The bend should fit the energy coming from the run-up speed, take-off and eventually the swing. IOW, don't exaggerate an action that will cause a bigger bend than the run-up speed, take-off and swing dictates. It's not a matter of getting a bigger bend. It all has to fit together.

Athletes are better served with the notion of pushing the pole towards vertical at take-off (both arms). This push delivers the force that triggers the bend, but this is all it does to the bend, and it should end as soon as the tophand feels the pressure.

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Unread postby Tim McMichael » Mon Jun 16, 2008 11:05 am

vault3rb0y wrote:
vaultman18 wrote:
It seems this one was put to rest, and the column physics does not apply for some reason to the pole.... but i kept thinking.




Column physics don't apply because the pole has a pre-bend, but more importantly, a soft side. It wants to bend in a specific direction when pressure is applied to both ends.

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Unread postby RPVA03 » Mon Jun 16, 2008 2:45 pm

From what I understand the swing does not bend the pole. It can cause it to bend more. Initially it is only the mass and velocity of the vaulter system that causes bend, whether you swing or not. As Agapit explained, the swing is only a redistribution of the energy built in the run up. Accelerating the swing will cause the pole to bend more, where a natural swing will not. If you were to somehow resist swinging completely, the pole would still bend as a result of the mass and velocity of the vaulter, even with just the right hand on the pole.


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