Analsis of Tye Harvey's 5.92 jump

[keihas]

Alan,

I would be very interested in your analysis of someone like Tye Harvey. His 5.92 jump in the World Championships in particular.

Thanks

[keihas]

5.92 jump sorry

[altius]

Will do as soon as I can get on my own computer.

[altius]

Tye does a number of things well as you would expect with somebody who has jumped that high. However he does not ensure a free take off - so wastes energy bending the pole before he leaves the ground - the energy he wastes there means that he is forced to tuck - under the pole -instead of on top of it , or even level with it. This means he is further away from the bar when he starts to extend up -and is also in a weaker position to exploit the recoil. Al

[Bruce Caldwell]

[color=blue][b]What video did you use for Tye Harvey analysis? Is it available for all to see online?
If in the video he was tucking I can see why you would exclaim this!

I do wonder from time to time if there is a need for the vaulter to be closer to the pole and farther from the bar to provide the necessary penetration on top of the bar to get completely over the bar. Yes you do have to travel a farther distance, but is it what is required to gain bar clearance?
I find that in some cases this to be a pole reaction blended to the technique not just technique alone.
In our studies of the vault we see some poles that allow the vaulter to be close to the pole and closer to the bar. And they do gain the best height from the recoil of energy. However in most all cases these vaulters have a tremendous difficulty clearing the bar without landing on it, snaking over it or having to place their hand on the bar.
A pole and a technique that can take the vaulter straight up in the air a foot over the bar is not as good as technique and a pole that can roll and deliver room on all sides of the bar. Yes one might say the technique that delivers you higher is the best one but we find the technique that delivers the clearance is the most efficient one. As you have coached many times the proof of the pudding all relates to the take off and I agree as long as you have a pole design that will deliver the results you are striving for. There are three pole brands of the five out there that can do this and one is mine ESSX. I have seen test where a pole takes a 100 lbs weight straight up in the air higher than any other brand regardless of any thought or input to the vaulters technique or take-off. And yes this test does take the weight farther in the air than the three pole brands. But do these brands blended with the proper technique provide the best return of efficient usable energy for clearance?

And based on the film you are studying of TYE it maybe just as you say a poor initiation of energy transfer at the take off as I have seen a few like that early in his jumps in the past or was it the pole he was on?.
Of course I have heard the sales pitch or as you say in OZ Sales BS “that a vaulter could utilize their technique on the right stiffness telephone pole.â€Â

[keihas]

Thank you for your input. Analysis of this jump had Tye @ 9.32 m/s from 5 to 10m out.. Maybe close to the best jump ever at this velocity. I would love to see this jump all else the same @ 9.8 m/s at takeoff.

[altius]

"9.32 m/s from 5 to 10m out." Apples and oranges. How fast was he 5m - take off??

Also the faster he is moving when he compresses the pole early like that -the less efficient his jump will be. This is an area which has not been addressed anywhere to date.

Essex - the issue I addressed in Reno - was how do you assure penetration deep onto the pad when you go for maximum height. As always Bubka was the model - naturally using Spirits - but I also used 7 of my own young athletes to show what was possible for relative novices -also using Spirit.

[keihas]

5-10 and 10-15 is where all biomechanical measurements are taken. His takeoff in this jump was just outside 4m. This speed was taken 1 m short of the takeoff point. My only reason for saying this is that if Tye ran through the 5-10 zone in 9.8m/s all things equal he would have been on a different planet. His technical model however diffecient because of his lack of an optimal takeoff was pretty good.I might add that his pole carry and pole drop were defficient and he knew that. That is why he started experementing with sliding the pole. He managed 5.70 with that technique. He was able to run .2 m/s faster but had timing issues with the pole tip bouncing into the box. I guess my point is that Tye was able to reach heights only obtained by a handful of athletes with only a margin of speed possesed by the greatest athletes in the World. He did more with less. It is only human nature to investigate what he was trying to do. He was unable to reach a World Record height not because of his technical model, but by his lack of runway velocity.

[altius]

"not because of his technical model, but by his lack of runway velocity."

Sorry - but remember you started this discussion by asking my opinion of Tye's technique. I am not starting a debate with you about this issue. However I believe that there is no way he can approach the world record as long as he is unable to ensure a free take off. As i suggested above - without a free take off, more speed will only exacerbate the problems already evident - problems which bedevil the vast majority of US vaulters. To understand that proposition you must understand the Petrov/Bubka model.

[keihas]

I wasn't looking for a debate. I have read your book cover to cover and don't disagree with anything in the book. I believe everything you said is what most elite coaches are looking for out of there athletes. My college coach spent time in Russia with Petrov in the early 80's. This concept of jumping as mentioned in the book is not new to most of us. A book written in the late 70's or early 80's called "Pole Vault Mechanics" talked about many you describe in BTB. You did a much better job of explaining the model and showing illustrations of the proper sequences. My only comment was to illustrate that Tye was able to jump 5.93 #11 All-Time Indoors with a technical model quite differently from that of Bubka's especially concerning positioning and focus at the takeoff. Granted he was not at an optimal takeoff, but nobody is 100% of the time. He found a way to jump high taking into consideration his speed and athletic ability. Many athletes try many different cues and positioning to make the jump work for them. I again thank you for the time and effort you put into the pole vault.

[Bruce Caldwell]

Common errors of vaulters today (in 1972 & in 2007)
Yes Alan is correct about his analysis of Tye in those videos.
Tye does lose velocity in those jumps 570 and 590

http://www.stabhochsprung.com/.

And Keihas is correct in observing a different model in other vaulters that accomplish great heights over coming inefficiencies within the vault.

I think that is what really differentiates different models in the vault.
Where a vaulter has a problem achieving the optimum style, and finds a way to improve on a different aspect, to make up for the losses. It is like you could build a family tree chart with the perfect jump style and these limbs of various jump styles tiered off it.

I once took radar gun readings of Billy Olson and Mike Tully at a meet.
Both holding the same, having the same amount of lefts, both on 20 lb over their weight poles, same brand Pacer III, both attempting the same height 17'8"
The radar readings were very interesting;
A front radar device and a rear gave very different readings.
While Mike Tully was strong but steady rolling down the run way Billy was very very fast.
Mike was at the time in 1979 working on a technique of bending the pole from the swing rather than from the plant. This was a technique I had outlined in my book in 1972 as the most efficient way to vault. MY book was endorsed by Steve Smith, read by Joe Dial, Earl Bell and many World Class Vaulters and we sold over 1000 copies and 32 copies to European Coaches in 1974.
[quote][b](“The Elusive Bar 2nd Edition Published in 1972 34 years ago grin now out of print chapter one page 15). Quote from my book in 1972 “To store or transfer energy of the run into the vault, the vaulter has two ways to do this one storing the energy into the pole and 2nd creating a pendulum action that stores the power of the run into the swing of the vault. Probably the most common error of vaulters today (in 1972 and still in 2007) is the overemphasis on “getting intoâ€Â

[Soar Like an Eagle]

[quote="ESSX"]Common errors of vaulters today (in 1972 & in 2007)
Yes Alan is correct about his analysis of Tye in those videos.
Tye does lose velocity in those jumps 570 and 590

http://www.stabhochsprung.com/.

And Keihas is correct in observing a different model in other vaulters that accomplish great heights over coming inefficiencies within the vault.

I think that is what really differentiates different models in the vault.
Where a vaulter has a problem achieving the optimum style, and finds a way to improve on a different aspect, to make up for the losses. It is like you could build a family tree chart with the perfect jump style and these limbs of various jump styles tiered off it.

I once took radar gun readings of Billy Olson and Mike Tully at a meet.
Both holding the same, having the same amount of lefts, both on 20 lb over their weight poles, same brand Pacer III, both attempting the same height 17'8"
The radar readings were very interesting;
A front radar device and a rear gave very different readings.
While Mike Tully was strong but steady rolling down the run way Billy was very very fast.
Mike was at the time in 1979 working on a technique of bending the pole from the swing rather than from the plant. This was a technique I had outlined in my book in 1972 as the most efficient way to vault. MY book was endorsed by Steve Smith, read by Joe Dial, Earl Bell and many World Class Vaulters and we sold over 1000 copies and 32 copies to European Coaches in 1974.
[quote][b](“The Elusive Bar 2nd Edition Published in 1972 34 years ago grin now out of print chapter one page 15). Quote from my book in 1972 “To store or transfer energy of the run into the vault, the vaulter has two ways to do this one storing the energy into the pole and 2nd creating a pendulum action that stores the power of the run into the swing of the vault. Probably the most common error of vaulters today (in 1972 and still in 2007) is the overemphasis on “getting intoâ€Â