Alternate Models to the Vault (Petrov, Huffman Roll, etc.)

This is a forum to discuss pole vault technique as it relates to intermediate level pole vaulting.
Chaebo
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Alternate Models to the Vault (Petrov, Huffman Roll, etc.)

Unread postby Chaebo » Mon May 27, 2013 11:30 am

I see a lot of discussion in the forums about the Petrov/Bubka Model of pole vaulting (Which I very much enjoy to follow) but anyone who follows some of the major contributors to this model such as Altius, KirkB, and agapit. You will notice there are many aspect to even that one model which vary between coaches and athletes a like.

That brings many questions into my head for example Who is right ? Who is wrong? Is there one set model that works the best or do these models vary by coach or maybe by athlete? If the Petrov model is the Holy Grail of PV should all coaches and athletes be dropping their routine they use now to take up this model.

As I said before there are many people in these forums that discuss, teach, and support the Petrov Model here (For Good Reasons.) But, what are some of the other models that coaches here are being quiet about. There are many variations of vaulting whether they be minor such as a slight variation in the swing, whether to use a little bottom hand pressure or none at all, and an on step vs an out step etc. Some examples of other alterations INSIDE of different models which I would consider more extreme differences would be Tucking & Shooting, Top Hand Pressure, both common components in American Tuck & Shoot Vaulting. How about the Huffman roll, the double leg swing up.

There have been many different styles or models and most ESTABLISHED models have produced successful vaulters. So, I would like to hear about other models why we should or should not use them. How they compare to Petrov Model. Are they easier or more difficult for begginers to learn? What are their components and maybe even the physics behind them.
Last edited by Chaebo on Mon May 27, 2013 12:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Alternate Models to the Vault (Petrov, Huffman Roll, etc.)

Unread postby botakatobi » Mon May 27, 2013 12:18 pm

We could study the western roll, sissors and straddle technique of the high jump, but the flop will still produce a better result by the elite athlete.

The vault is similar in that other models can be used, but the model as demonstratrated by Bubka will produce the best result in the hands of the best athletes.

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Re: Alternate Models to the Vault (Petrov, Huffman Roll, etc.)

Unread postby Chaebo » Mon May 27, 2013 12:35 pm

Is this a fact or a opinion? The results are undoubtedly hard to argue with having Yelena and Bubka being world record holders as well as many other highly successful vaulters using similar techniques. But, keep in mind that for the men and woman many vaulters have been successful using different models as well. Huffman with a vault of 19'7 using his very own technique despite having a possible height disadvantage(Opinion) . Brad Walker 19'9.75 and Jeff Hartwig 19'9.5 placing both of them using the tuck and shoot putting them into the 6 meter club along with Okert Brits who used an understep and lots of bottom hand pressure.

I am not trying to promote one model over another I am simply trying to explore. Trying learn about these other models and hear other opinions of on these models. SO, no answer is right or wrong.

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Re: Alternate Models to the Vault (Petrov, Huffman Roll, etc.)

Unread postby KirkB » Mon May 27, 2013 4:24 pm

botakatobi wrote:We could study the western roll, scissors and straddle technique of the high jump, but the flop will still produce a better result by the elite athlete.

The vault is similar in that other models can be used, but the model as demonstrated by Bubka will produce the best result in the hands of the best athletes.
:yes:
This is a great analogy! I love it! :heart:

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Re: Alternate Models to the Vault (Petrov, Huffman Roll, etc.)

Unread postby KirkB » Mon May 27, 2013 4:41 pm

Chaebo, you ask some very good questions here, and I'm hoping that we can discuss them without too much dogma.

I think there's good value in being able to identify the different models by name, and being able to explore the pros and cons of each. If we cannot look at history as a lesson learned, then it's bound to repeat itself.

There's also the American Model - what is that, exactly?

And then there's the Oklahoma Model (Tim McMichael, Joe Dial) and the Texas Model (each had its own PV Manifesto on PVP about 6 years ago).

The Huffman Roll is certainly an extremely unique way of clearing the bar, but I would call that a "style" rather than an entirely new Model. I think we need to look at the technique he used in the bottom half of his vault to classify his technique by model. To me, I find it interesting that there's been so few vaulters that could actually do this (I only heard of one other guy), and I wonder how high Huffman would have vaulted WITHOUT his Roll?

I know some of the history of how Brad Walker got to the technique that he uses today, and I think you could classify his technique as a hybrid of Petrov and Tuck-Shoot - but there might be other factors that I'm overlooking (tuck-shoot may be too generic of a classification). There's also Pike-Shoot, which I've seen Walker (and many others) do in the past. Many other vaulters also use a hybrid model.

Okkert Brits definitely has an understep and used lots of bottom hand pressure ON TAKEOFF as well as AFTER TAKEOFF. He was not alone in using this technique - I think there were many others like him in the 1990s and early 2000s - well after the Petrov Model became well-known by Bubka's WRs.

If I'm not mistaken, I think Lawrence Johnson used the same technique as Brits (or a variant of it) before he was coached by Roman Botcharnikov. Hopefully, Agapit will explain this to us for free. :)

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Re: Alternate Models to the Vault (Petrov, Huffman Roll, etc.)

Unread postby PV2020 » Mon May 27, 2013 10:22 pm

KirkB wrote:
botakatobi wrote:We could study the western roll, scissors and straddle technique of the high jump, but the flop will still produce a better result by the elite athlete.

The vault is similar in that other models can be used, but the model as demonstrated by Bubka will produce the best result in the hands of the best athletes.
:yes:
This is a great analogy! I love it! :heart:

Kirk


I think this is a horrible example...

You compared techniques that are significantly worse and are not used any more. Comparing the flop to the western roll is like comparing inverting vs. standing over the cross bar.

I think a good comparison would be having a high arch in the high jump when you flop vs. going over relatively flat, or using both arms by your side vs. leading with one arm.

Pole vault techniques that all require bending the pole are a lot like shot put glide vs. spine. The world record is with the spin, and most people will throw farther with a spin if they can do it right (lets call this Petrov). There are also different variations of the spin as there are in Petrov with guys like Bubka vs. Markov. However, although it is pretty evident with all athletic ability equal the spin is better, but at the last Olympics gold and silver were gliders!!

To answer your question though. I think the biggest difference in modern techniques are the belief in what is important.

Petrov athletes and coaches seem to obsess over the technique and the gymnastic side of the event, while other athletes and coaches that are not completely Petrov, generally focus on the athletic side of they vault. They focus on having faster and stronger pole vaulters, and some what believe what happens after you leave the ground is no where near as important as what happens before you leave it.

The person to describe "American" pole vaulting the best was Brad Walker. He stated that the biggest difference in a 5.50 pole vaulter and a 6.00 pole vaulter is not their technique, it is how athletic they are. He strongly recommended emerging elite athletes to focus less on vaulting and more on getting stronger and faster.

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Re: Alternate Models to the Vault (Petrov, Huffman Roll, etc.)

Unread postby Chaebo » Mon May 27, 2013 11:01 pm

Chaebo, you ask some very good questions here, and I'm hoping that we can discuss them without too much dogma


You're right this has potential to escalate into a rather hostile thread. Though, that wasn't my intentions and I hope it can refrain from doing so.

I think there's good value in being able to identify the different models by name, and being able to explore the pros and cons of each. If we cannot look at history as a lesson learned, then it's bound to repeat itself.


I hear this a lot about history repeating itself but If I am not mistaken isn't that the entire idea of the Petrov model? Return the vaulters to the original way of vaulting on straight pole and assert it to fiberglass? My is history is one of the most powerful tools a person can posses. The knowledge of our faults and success if used wisely this abundence of knowledge could revolutionize the sport as we know it. (I believe this sport has more to come and those who don't believe that are limiting themselves the value and power of knowledge.)

There's also the American Model - what is that, exactly?


Sorry, I often quote the Tuck and Shoot as the American model.

KirkB wrote:The Huffman Roll is certainly an extremely unique way of clearing the bar, but I would call that a "style" rather than an entirely new Model. I think we need to look at the technique he used in the bottom half of his vault to classify his technique by model. To me, I find it interesting that there's been so few vaulters that could actually do this (I only heard of one other guy), and I wonder how high Huffman would have vaulted WITHOUT his Roll?


I also agree his technique was more of a style rather than a model, and Huffman did not always jump with the roll. here is an example here. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bmgSZCM8AE Time Stamp at 2:18
I had talked to a vaulter who had a short lived career as a professional vaulter and vaulted with Scott Huffman had told me he typically only used the roll when his step was under. I am simply stating his word but haven't really tried to find evidence to support or condone that idea. But, if this is true that would mean he would probably classify along closely with the Petrov Model and alter this only by the "feel" of the vault.

If agapit did in fact change Lawrence Johnson, from this model to the Petrov Model I would be very happy to happy to hear more about it. That would be fantastic to hear about the experiences he had, the difficulties in making alterations, and knowing him as a reliable source the science behind the improvements and why they were superior methods.

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Re: Alternate Models to the Vault (Petrov, Huffman Roll, etc.)

Unread postby Chaebo » Mon May 27, 2013 11:12 pm

PV2020 wrote:Pole vault techniques that all require bending the pole are a lot like shot put glide vs. spine. The world record is with the spin, and most people will throw farther with a spin if they can do it right (lets call this Petrov). There are also different variations of the spin as there are in Petrov with guys like Bubka vs. Markov. However, although it is pretty evident with all athletic ability equal the spin is better, but at the last Olympics gold and silver were gliders!!


I do agree this is a better analogy to describe the comparison and I agree because of the exact reasons you stated of comparing 2 techniques that are still used today instead of using techniques which have been proven less effective and are no longer in use.

PV2020 wrote:The person to describe "American" pole vaulting the best was Brad Walker. He stated that the biggest difference in a 5.50 pole vaulter and a 6.00 pole vaulter is not their technique, it is how athletic they are. He strongly recommended emerging elite athletes to focus less on vaulting and more on getting stronger and faster.


I have to slightly agree and disagree with this statement. Although, I do believe that it takes an exceptional athlete to jump 6 meters I feel like it says that the one reason Bubka jumped higher than any other vaulter in the world was simply because of his athletic ability. Do not let me put words in your mouth if this is not what you mean.

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Re: Alternate Models to the Vault (Petrov, Huffman Roll, etc.)

Unread postby CoachEric » Tue May 28, 2013 10:55 am

I think the word "model" confuses this discussion a little bit. Perhaps a more fitting description is about "methods" used. Many of the vaulters cited have been influenced by Petrov for example, but most would not say that they are perfect examples of the Petrov model.

The most influential methods on modern pole vaulting in my opinion belong to Petrov and Dan Pfaff (for his influence on Walker and Hooker). As mentioned previously (about Walker), Pfaff's method places more emphasis on athletic development, while we know Petrov for his technical model which is based on rotating a straight pole.

There are only two explicit technical differences between Pfaff's and Petrov's "model" that I know of - those being the initiation of the run and the plant motion - and I assume that Pfaff's model has been influenced by his understanding of Petrov.

Between those two coaches, the methods for developing pole vaulters is pretty comprehensive. I tend to believe that any technical or training element that is not consistent with either of those two methods is probably a less effective approach, and I would characterize them as incorrect.

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Re: Alternate Models to the Vault (Petrov, Huffman Roll, etc.)

Unread postby Chaebo » Tue May 28, 2013 11:11 am

Coacheric, What are those differences in the beginning of the approach and the plant motion? Aren't these 2 aspects of the vault that are typically common between vaulters at the professional level. I mean on paper based off their "methods" not based on their own personal habits or errors during the vault.

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Re: Alternate Models to the Vault (Petrov, Huffman Roll, etc.)

Unread postby CoachEric » Tue May 28, 2013 12:50 pm

The difference in the plant is the most critical.

Pfaff believes in pushing the arms forward as the pole flips to horizontal at eye level. You will see this motion clearly in Walker's plant with the left arm extended forward as the vaulter is on the right foot. Pfaff believes that this motion is biomechanically superior, and that this accelerates the movement of the pole, and that it provides maximum space between the vaulter and the pole prior to takeoff.

The Petrov model uses a straight line path with the hands toward vertical. In his model, the hands remain closer to the vaulter's center of mass, thus improving balance and body position, and the hands are more easily able to move in time with the feet because there is less distance fo the hands to travel. The positions are detailed in the 2005 Reno speech. In my opinion, Petrov's model is superior because it tends to result in a higher pole angle, better run tempo into takeoff, and a better body position, but these positives are contingent on a pole tip that is accelerating into the plant.

Their differences in the initiation of the run are less critical I think.

Petrov teaches vaulters to focus on good posture and to be tall out of the back, and to develop speed with a relaxed, smooth acceleration pattern. Staying tall helps maintain good pole carry and sets the vaulter up to be optimally positioned in the latter half of the run.

Pfaff trains his athletes to accelerate like sprinters. The emphasis in on power out of the back, with a forward lean, close to 45 degrees for maximal displacement of bodyweight, and a natural transition from acceleration phase to top speed. I prefer this method. Coaches trying to imitate Petrov often cue "slow to fast" which often results in all kinds of run inconsistencies in non-elite vaulters. And if the goal is to run fast, then running slow at the beginning of the approach isn't going to help you run fast at the end. Much better is the cue, "power to tempo."

The only way to truly develop this by is getting the athlete on the track and doing lots of acceleration development work without a pole to develop speed and correct acceleration/sprint mechanics - hence Pfaff's approach of athletic development. When a vaulter learns how to execute "power to tempo" at maximal effort, it removes inconsitencies from the run, so you don't need 5 different checkmarks on the runway like you see with some vaulters, just a mid. I believe the result is that vaulters using this method will tend to be faster and more consistent.

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Re: Alternate Models to the Vault (Petrov, Huffman Roll, etc.)

Unread postby Chaebo » Tue May 28, 2013 6:37 pm

Thank you ! This was exactly what I was looking to hear by creating this thread. Helpful, educated, responses with zero contraversy amongst posts.

I have heard of the idea of pushing the hands forward infront of the head at the plant and I was suprised to hear it when i did. It isn't a technique which i see very often.... On purpose atlaest.

I recently came across this http://www.mtccca.org/PDF%20files/Jeff%20Hartwig-Pole%20Vault%20Clinic%20Notes.pdf

I was suprised to see he never really said anything about applying top hand pressure nor much about bottom hand. Rather he discusses BALANCE!

As for the bottom hand he simply says it should not be pushed directly in but later states the importance of having straight arms and pressure directly upwards.


This is Jeff Hartwig's concepts btw.


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