late season pole problem

[mcobb1013]

so i have been needing a new pole since the begining of the season and it finally came in last thursday. the thing is i can't jump on it. it is a 14'6" 155 carbon mystic flex number 20.4 and i am moving from a 13 160 pacerfx flex number 17.8. me and my coach decided that it would be better to get a longer pole since i go up through poles so fast so i can use it longer. (i was using a 11'6" 150 skypole at the end of last outdoor track season and in indoor this year, with temperatures in the 40's all season, through a 150 pacer and eventually the 160 13' pacerfx that i am currently using) also at the time i still had over half the season to get used to it, but some stocking and shipping things happened and now i have two weeks till regionals. i have went back to using my long run with the new pole(couldn't use it on my 13" pacer because i would crush it so much i couldn't jump bars set all the way back with it) but i still don't have enough energy being transferred to get into the pit. i know for a fact that if it was a 14' pole fiberglass pole i could hold up at the top and, as much as i crush my 160 pacer, i could get into the pit but this pole i can't. i have not tried holding over 13' on it for fear that i will fall back onto the runway.

i think part of my problem comes from not jumping up enough at takeoff since it is a harder pole then my pacer (it feels like im hitting a wall and i have always been told if it feels that way you need to jump up more) and also i haven't got it broke in since i have only tried jumping on it twice
another thing i think is that it might have something with the pole being carbon fiber instead of fiberglass like i have always jumped on
my coaches say i just need to give it some time and get used to it since its so different from my current pole, and that no one ever gets a brand new pole and loves it
i just want to hear what yall think since neither of my coaches is actually a true pole vault coach.

please help
-matt

[KirkB]

McCobb, it's unfortunate that you need to jump all the way from a 13-0 160 to a 14-6 155. That's quite a gap!

RelativeResistanceChart.JPG (30.24 KiB) Viewed 7016 times

Looking at the SkyJumpers' Relative Stiffness Chart above (where I've circled your poles in red), you can see that your 13-0 pole has a relative stiffness of 33, whereas your 14-6 pole has a stiffness of 38. So you're basically moving up THREE pole lengths and FIVE pole stiffnesses!

It's unfortunate that your new pole is so much heavier than your old one. I can only conclude that your coach made a mistake in his determination of what pole to buy. From the chart, you can see all the other choices in between your old pole and you new one.

How much do you weigh? A 14-0 150 would have been a better choice. That would have been only TWO pole lengths and TWO pole stiffnesses.

I know you read everything on PVP (or at least you say you do), so I assume that you know all the stuff we've talked about on how to move up a pole ... keeping everything the same including the grip.

But you have such a huge gap in poles, that (even tho you're blowing thru your 13-0 160), you're going to have to move your run back on the 14-6 155 and try to match up your grip, run length, and flex. As tough as this sounds, I think you still need to keep your grip the same as on the 13 footer, but just get more speed from your longer run. You say you're already trying this, so all I can add is to stick with it, and remember that YOU own the POLE ... the POLE doesn't OWN you.

What I mean by this is that whatever happens in your vault happens because YOU make it happen. Be very careful not to blame any flaws on the pole (you haven't yet ... just don't). Once you get the frame of mind that you're going to solve this problem, and you're going to "master" your new pole ... then you will. But you've got to do a lot of things right ... very right.

Here's some initial suggestions (other than borrowing a pole with a relative stiffness in the range of 34-36) ... you'll have to work hard and quickly to fix this before regionals in 2 weeks ...

Re-read the last advice that myself, dj, and others gave you here ...
http://polevaultpower.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=16930&st=0&sk=t&sd=a
It seems to cover everything from your runup thru to your pushoff.

Remember that the way to fix a problem is to look at the previous vault part ... all the way back to the run. So in your case, heed DJ's advice on the run, then my advice on the takeoff.

If you THINK you're not jumping on takeoff, then you're probably not. In my experience, vaulters that do think they're jumping vigorously really aren't. So at least you recognize this flaw. That's the first step to fixing it!

Good luck to you working your way thru this problem!

I've only just scratched the surface on how to fix this, so please continue to provide feedback on how you're progressing over the next couple weeks.

Another thought ... to discuss with your coach ... is if you can't get onto the new pole with your current grip, then DON'T raise your grip (that's a sure stallout, IMHO). Instead, LOWER your grip, and change your technique to become more of a stiff polevault style. This is rather radical (thus, I suggest discuss in depth with your coach before you do it), but it JUST MIGHT WORK. You might even surprise yourself by learning "proper technique" ... without relying so much on a soft bending pole.

Vids would help immensely.

Kirk

[mcobb1013]

ok i will definately try that stuff
also do you think i should move my run back even farther? i am running from 81' and that is moved back from 72'6"

man i read my old posts and i reliaze how far i have come this season. i defeinately have figured out what you meant we you said u will feel the pole throw you when you jump 13'-14' i did that 2 weekends ago and set the school record(previously 12'6" now 13' )for my highschool. that day i was unstoppable, everything just clicked and i PR by a foot. i think that is kinda feeding in to my semi discouragement about this pole since i went from jumping my PR and a school record to not being able to jump on this pole.

also do you think that i should maybe try moving up my handhold a little since my speed is there it just it feels like the sailpiece is to high to really let the pole bend, i mean i am holding down 1'6", or is this just stupid and dangerous?

[rainbowgirl28]

also do you think that i should maybe try moving up my handhold a little since my speed is there it just it feels like the sailpiece is to high to really let the pole bend, i mean i am holding down 1'6", or is this just stupid and dangerous?

If your standards are all the way back and you are landing in the middle of the pit, then yes, you could raise it 1"-3", but if you are already landing shallow, raising your grip will have you landing in the box.

[KirkB]

McCobb, forget about lowering your grip. I forgot that you've increased your run length. Sorry to confuse you with that ... RG is right. So with your increased run length, SLIGHTLY increased grip, and KEEPING YOUR TECHNIQUE THE SAME AS WITH YOUR 13-FOOTER, you MIGHT be OK (since you're already said that you're blowing thru on your old pole).

Once you get over the transition from the old pole to the new one, you'll probably find that you'll start increasing your grip quite a bit (which is the obvious reason why you bought a longer pole!), but I'm just worried about the initial switch-over.

To stress again, the most important thing is to get a good run, make sure your steps are "on", and to JUMP on takeoff.

If you're going to bail, just remember to hang onto the pole!

But psyche yourself up with the mindset that you just need to run faster and jump harder. A tailwind would also give you a little boost of both confidence and speed.

Kirk

[mcobb1013]

yeah a tailwind is definately something we have here. our field is right off a lake so we get it so bad sometimes i can't vault because it messes up my steps so much. and the funny thing is that all this year when i wanted it to be calm so i could getr a good practice in it was like gale force winds and now when i need them its like a 2 mph breeze every ten minutes.

but i don't thinnk you ever gave me a obvious answer on moving my run back even farther from 81'. this would put me in the 90's. do you think this is an advantage i need to exploit or is my current 81' run good enough?

[rainbowgirl28]

How many steps are you taking with your 81' run?

[mcobb1013]

i am taking 7 steps
sorry it took so long for me to reply

ok so here is an update of my situation since last monday. continued tryin to vault on the new pole, not very well but better then i had been.

then on tuesday my coach gets a mysterious call during class that there is another pole that was just delivered up at the school office. so both of us walk up their and realize that our retired coach that still helps has bought a 14'6" 160 pacerfx fiberglass pole in case i could not get up on the 14'6" 155 carbon mystic. well i jumped with it at practice that day and felt like i had more confidence on the 160 pacerfx since it was fiberglass but i could not get into the mat as well as the 155 carbon mystic for obvious reasons.

so that wednesday was our conference meet so i went back to my old 13' 160 pacerfx and jumped 12'6" (which is a personal best for me at my school).

Then thursday i went to practice and warmed up on my old pole then grabbed the 155 carbon mystic. the first jump with it i decide to hold about 13'6" and widen my grip about 4". i finally bent the pole for the first time but did not totally get into the mat since i never really got my feet up since all jumps previously with it i had fell on the inside of the arms or on the ground infront of the mat. well then i got excited and ran back on the runway and knew all i had to do is to commit to it and i would definately be on the mat. well i started my run and everything felt ok and i planted the pole and jumped and bent it while still looking down at the pole (normally i don't look down but this time i did for some reason) then once my body got a little bit past the parallel position with the ground i heard a sound like a gun shot and watched my pole to commence to break into 5 pieces!!!

well i wasn't hurt (other than the 6" long 4" wide 1.5" high swollen place on my back where the pole had hit me, which didn't hurt at the time b/c of the adreniline) and got up and threw the piece of pole that i was still holding and said several words i shouldn't have and went to find my coach to tell him what happened. i found him and told him what happened and he was speechless and then went down to the mat to get the pieces of the pole so the other athletes would not be messing with them and whatever and eventually i calmed down and me and him talked about it and i decided to try and keep vaulting since i was in no pain and had only about a week to get on a new pole. so i jumped with the 14'6" 160 pacerfx once and did better then i ever had with it but i was kinda hesitant when planting and swinging. so then i decided to use an old 11'6" 150 skypole (that i learn how to pole vault on) and do a 3 left run and just get my confidence back up in vaulting and that i could trust the pole. well it broke to on my first jump. it didn't hit me and i walked away perfectly fine especailly considering what the carbonhad did to me.

well needless to say i decdied to quit for the day after that and waited till monday (yesterday) to jmp again because my coach and also my father told me to. i started to use the 14'6" 160 pacerfx that my coach had bought just in case (thank god) and still was kinda spooked to jump on it.

today, i decided it was best for my to jump on my old 13' 160 pacerfx to get back comfortable with the pole bending, which i did. and also i used the 14'6" 160 pacerfx a few times and just barely got into the pit which is actually better then i have done before and i know you shouldn't jump on a pole if you can't land in the pit with it but i made considerable progress with it and am going to stick with it.

so i guess what i am trying to get answered with this post is why do yall think those poles broke? and also any help getting on the new 14'6" 160 pacerfx

me and my coach both think that i broke the carbon since i did not break it in properly before i bent it that much and it simply had never been pushed to that extend and just simply broke because of it, the second one was just that it was old and it was way past time for it to break. the flex number was 17.1 but it it bent easier then some 19's that we had and it was probably the upwards of a decade old

so is there any truth to these assumptions? if not please give me your theories.


-Matt

[rainbowgirl28]

OK let me give you a few facts to explain why things happened...

then on tuesday my coach gets a mysterious call during class that there is another pole that was just delivered up at the school office. so both of us walk up their and realize that our retired coach that still helps has bought a 14'6" 160 pacerfx fiberglass pole in case i could not get up on the 14'6" 155 carbon mystic.

So your coach is an idiot and just wasted a lot of money.

so that wednesday was our conference meet so i went back to my old 13' 160 pacerfx and jumped 12'6" (which is a personal best for me at my school).

You jumped better because you were on a pole that was not too big...

Then thursday i went to practice and warmed up on my old pole then grabbed the 155 carbon mystic.

You're trying to kill yourself...

the first jump with it i decide to hold about 13'6" and widen my grip about 4".

You raised your grip over 6", now you are really trying to kill yourself.

i finally bent the pole for the first time but did not totally get into the mat since i never really got my feet up since all jumps previously with it i had fell on the inside of the arms or on the ground infront of the mat.

You didn't get into the mat because the pole was not moving toward the pit fast enough because you are neither fast enough nor do you have good enough technique to be using a pole that big.

well then i got excited and ran back on the runway and knew all i had to do is to commit to it and i would definately be on the mat.

So in addition to being suicidal, you are also delusional.

well i started my run and everything felt ok and i planted the pole and jumped and bent it while still looking down at the pole (normally i don't look down but this time i did for some reason) then once my body got a little bit past the parallel position with the ground i heard a sound like a gun shot and watched my pole to commence to break into 5 pieces!!!

When you are holding too high on a pole that is bending, your momentum doesn't transfer forward like it should be. If you were looking down at takeoff, you probably were not tall and jumping up at takeoff either, creating more of a sinking feeling. The fact that your pole broke into 5 pieces definitely indicates it broke because you overbent it, not because of any damage to the pole.

well i wasn't hurt

Most pole breaks do not cause serious injury, but you did just cost your school hundreds of dollars.

and went to find my coach to tell him what happened. i found him and told him what happened and he was speechless and then went down to the mat to get the pieces of the pole so the other athletes would not be messing with them and whatever

So not only does your coach know nothing about pole selection, he is also irresponsible enough to let you practice without supervision?!

eventually i calmed down and me and him talked about it and i decided to try and keep vaulting since i was in no pain and had only about a week to get on a new pole.

And then he lets you keep vaulting, despite your valiant efforts at killing yourself? I guess since he wasn't watching your vaults he wouldn't know how dangerous you are!

so i jumped with the 14'6" 160 pacerfx once and did better then i ever had with it but i was kinda hesitant when planting and swinging.

So you went back to the suicide attempts...

so then i decided to use an old 11'6" 150 skypole (that i learn how to pole vault on) and do a 3 left run and just get my confidence back up in vaulting and that i could trust the pole. well it broke to on my first jump. it didn't hit me and i walked away perfectly fine especailly considering what the carbonhad did to me.

And when you weren't able to kill yourself on too big of a pole, you decided to try and kill yourself by using way too small of a pole and costing your school more money.

well needless to say i decdied to quit for the day after that and waited till monday (yesterday) to jmp again because my coach and also my father told me to. i started to use the 14'6" 160 pacerfx that my coach had bought just in case (thank god) and still was kinda spooked to jump on it.

So somewhere deep in your soul lurks a little bit of common sense. That is the part of you that is spooked.

today, i decided it was best for my to jump on my old 13' 160 pacerfx to get back comfortable with the pole bending, which i did. and also i used the 14'6" 160 pacerfx a few times and just barely got into the pit which is actually better then i have done before and i know you shouldn't jump on a pole if you can't land in the pit with it but i made considerable progress with it and am going to stick with it.

But you're going to ignore that little bit of common sense hiding in there and continue to try and kill yourself.

so i guess what i am trying to get answered with this post is why do yall think those poles broke? and also any help getting on the new 14'6" 160 pacerfx

Those poles broke because you don't understand a darn thing about the pole vault and you have an irresponsible coach that lets you vault unsupervised.

me and my coach both think that i broke the carbon since i did not break it in properly before i bent it that much and it simply had never been pushed to that extend and just simply broke because of it, the second one was just that it was old and it was way past time for it to break. the flex number was 17.1 but it it bent easier then some 19's that we had and it was probably the upwards of a decade old

Oh good, I wasn't completely convinced you guys didn't know what you were talking about until I read this comment. Now I know, beyond that shadow of a doubt, that you and your coach both are both so misinformed about the pole vault that you are literally putting your life in danger every single time you pole vault.

so is there any truth to these assumptions? if not please give me your theories.

[/quote][/quote]

You didn't listen to anything anyone posted before, why are you going to listen to anything we post now.




I think the first thing you should do is have your dad read everything I just wrote.
The next thing you should do, is have your dad buy the book Beginner to Bubka and Isinbayeva too. You can buy it in the store on this website. But I don't care about making money, buy it from NeoVault.com or OnTrack, I don't care. If you order from me, I will ship it to you Priority Mail that day or the next day.
When that book comes in the mail, you, your dad, and your coach need to sit down and read it. Cover to cover. Watch the DVD too.
The book costs a little money, but it is a lot cheaper than the hundreds of dollars you just cost your school in broken poles.

Now, in the meantime, but that 14'6 pole away and do not think about it for the rest of the season.
Now listen, you are not blowing through your 13'160 that bad if you just PR'd on it. Go back to using that pole. Put your standards at 31.5". If you are bending hte pole a lot, but knocking the bar off on the way down, drop your grip a fist. If you are knocking the bar off on the way up, move your run from 7 lefts to 6 lefts. If you still knock it off on the way up, move it in to 5.

If you are sure you are actually blowing through the pole, and you have other kids there with other poles, you could try borrowing the following poles:
13'165
13'170
13'6 155
13'6 160

NOTHING BIGGER until you blow through one of the poles listed above.


Now, while you are pondering all of that, please do two more things.

Print this out: http://www.skyjumpers.com/articles/pvpr ... table.html
Study it. One cell to the right means a pole is about the same stiffness if you hold at the same height. One cell down means it is ~5lbs bigger.
SHOW THIS TO YOUR COACH

Next, watch this video: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 0052593028
Think about the things he said and how they compare to what you have been doing.
Watch it again.
Try to start doing some of those drills in practice.



I am serious that you should print out this post I just wrote and show it to your parents. They need to know that you are being so poorly coached that it is putting your life in danger and making them liable for hundreds of dollars in broken poles.


Edit: Cost of replacing the two poles you just broke:
14'6 Carbon Mystic: $496
11'6 Pacer: $314
Shipping: $50-$100 (let's say $75)

Total: $885

If your parents actually have that kind of money laying around, use it to buy you a 13'6 160 and 14'160. Or 13'170 and 13'6 170. Or any other combination of shorter heavier poles that will help bridge the gap between a 13'160 and 14'6 160.

[achtungpv]

(What Becca Said) X Infinity Squared

Unless you are willing to completely stop what you are doing and seek out some proper instruction, please quit the sport before you become a statistic. Regardless of what you do, tell your coach to quit coaching before he creates a statistic.

[KirkB]

McCobb, RG was quite hard on you ... and perhaps your coach deserved it more than you did ... because I wonder what HE was doing while you were vaulting?

So I won't be too hard on you, but here's some more facts (in addition to all the facts that RG just gave you) ...

Then thursday i ... grabbed the 155 carbon mystic. the first jump with it i decide to hold about 13'6" and widen my grip about 4". i finally bent the pole for the first time but did not totally get into the mat since i never really got my feet up since all jumps previously with it i had fell on the inside of the arms or on the ground infront of the mat.

... i started my run and everything felt ok and i planted the pole and jumped and bent it while still looking down at the pole (normally i don't look down but this time i did for some reason) then once my body got a little bit past the parallel position with the ground i heard a sound like a gun shot and watched my pole to commence to break into 5 pieces!!!

This is actually quite surprising. We were all worried that you'd have a tough time bending this pole, yet you bent it so much that you broke it! I haven't seen your technique, but this is quite surprising! What's partularly surprising is that you went from not being able to bend it to bending it too much all in one or two jumps.

... so i guess what i am trying to get answered with this post is why do yall think those poles broke? and also any help getting on the new 14'6" 160 pacerfx

You breaking your warmup pole isn't surprising at all ... your speed/strength/technique improved so much that you outgrew it!

I think your 14-6 155 bent because you must have changed your technique. I'm sure you somehow improved your run and takeoff, but it has to be more than that. You say you widened your grip by 4". It was probably already too wide, so you probably thought you could get more "leverage" to bend the pole by widening it even more. Bad idea! You should NOT be trying to bend the pole by widening your grip and pushing with your bottom arm! That's obviously why you broke it!

me and my coach both think that i broke the carbon since i did not break it in properly before i bent it that much and it simply had never been pushed to that extend and just simply broke because of it, the second one was just that it was old and it was way past time for it to break.

That's a fairy tale. Fiberglass poles are inert objects, with a certain elasticity. When they exceed their elastic limit, they break. There is no such thing as "warming up a pole" or "breaking it in". It has the same physical characteristics (including its elastic limit) from the day it's manufactured to the day it's broken. The only thing that might cause it to break without exceeding its elastic limit is if it has a flaw. From personal experience (I've broken over a dozen poles in my day - I was an uneducated vaulter like you in HS) - when a pole breaks into 3 or more pieces, it means that it didn't have any flaws - it's elastic limit was simply exceeded. If it broke into 2 pieces, then there would likely have been a flaw (a scratch from a spike, or something like that) in the place where it broke.

... please give me your theories.

I don't mean to sound crass, but what I just told you is more than a "theory". It's a FACT!

Kirk

[SlickVT]

mccobb,

I am not going to chew you out for your experience for a few reasons:

1. You coach is at fault for not supervising, and/or knowing anything resembling safety and common sense regarding the pole vault, and he is the teacher, you are the student.
2. You are coming to us here, on polevaultpower.com, the premier pole vaulting web site... FOR HELP.
3. I started out in the same boat as you... My HS coach (not my eventual REAL vaulting coach) once told me to run down our asphalt runway, pull down as hard as I can and look back at the runway.
4. Not every high school vaulter everywhere knows about Beginner to Bubka, Neovault, or has the opportunities that some of us take for granted as common knowledge. You are now here and that is a good start. Last thing I want to do is discourage you from coming back.
5. I don't want to discourage you from participating in our sport, which is already struggling to survive. Just he fact that your coach is doing what he is doing shows the poor organization, communication, and educational prowess of track and field in this country.

That being said, you have to take what rainbowgirl said VERY SERIOUSLY.

I repeat... VERY SERIOUSLY.

You are not only costing your school money, but MUCH MUCH MUCH more importantly, you are putting your life in danger, and I am completely serious when I say this.

Look at the resources recommended to you. Do drills. Take it slow. Sometimes psyching yourself up to run faster and jump harder is not the answer for someone in your shoes.

Pole vaulting is a safe sport when done correctly, and can be very rewarding. However, if it cannot or will not be done in this way, you will hurt yourself as well as the sport.

I wish you the best of luck. If I did not make it clear, do not be discouraged. I (I hope we) are glad you found us before you hurt yourself, and I hope you are not gunshy in asking more questions on here.