OK, Let's open the "pole drop" can of worms

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PVstudent
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Re: OK, Let's open the "pole drop" can of worms

Unread postby PVstudent » Thu Jul 25, 2013 12:56 am

Two points to make.
First, practical coaching is always conducted with specific people in a specific context. The language used for it to be effective must have mutually understood meanings of the words used. The meaning of the words reflect agreed conceptual understanding in the context where the words are being applied. However, when communicating by means other that the direct speech of real life interaction the words whether spoken or written without that shared direct real life context and interaction must rely on assumptions regarding mutual understanding of meaning of the word being written or spoken. Written and spoken words without the possibility of immediate and direct interaction, filled as it is with non verbal cues as to whether what is being said is being understood and actions are able to speak louder than words, is limited to using words with their exactly intended meanings.

There is no problem using pole drop as an expression in the real life context because there are innumerable subtle clues as to what is intended and meant by the people involved who are using this argot.

Written communication has to use words correctly according to their universal precise definitions and clearly nothing like poles dropping anywhere in the total action sequence in pole vaulting occurs until the vaulter releases the pole!

Secondly, "steering" is quite a good word to use in the 21st century because most young (urban dwelling) people would have little or no understanding of the conceptual underpinning of the meaning of the word "plant".

Kirk clearly you agree that the plant action is controlled!

In my coaching experience I have found that once the concept of the controlled lowering of the pole is grasped the vaulters do not lean back to control the pole lowering in the plant.

This is because they will already have been taught how to use the pole torque to assist them to increase their step cadence during the initiation of the plant action. Drills, drills and more drills are required in establishing the approach run actions and confidence to maintain upright torso posture with pelvic posterior tilt (pelvis is "tucked slightly under" to reduce the lumbar spine curvature) running technique when carrying the pole immediately preceding plant initiation.

At no stage in any communication that I have contributed to PVP have I advocated a "backward lean" as a means of controlling the plant.

There is no can of worms to be opened. ( I'm not trying to slap you! Good thread I have learned from it!)

All that is needed is genuine attempts to communicate as clearly as possible and not be complacent about the words we use locally if they do already have a universally agreed meaning. We should try to use words with their intended meanings particularly when using written communication.

Just a thought.

Imagine you are coaching someone who has Autism Spectrum Disorder or someone who suffers from Asperger's Syndrome . How do you think they might respond to the instruction "Put the pole tip in the box by dropping the pole!" The result will be literal translation of the instruction and the pole most assuredly will be dropped. Been there and done that, believe me or not, the pole will be dropped but not in the way you intend it to be.
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Re: OK, Let's open the "pole drop" can of worms

Unread postby CowtownPV » Sun Aug 04, 2013 6:19 pm

To me the only thing that matters about terminology is what your vaulters understand. Call it what you want the key is are the vaulters doing what you want them to do. Dropping, lowering, steering are all terms that you can use. I don't really worry if I'm using the lastest jargon but more about what my vaulters understand and do. If your vaulters are having trouble with any phase of the vault it is always good to look for a new way to phrase what you are telling them to help them but I wouldn't worry about changing my terminology because someone on a message board told me I was not using proper terminology. Now if you are wanting to hit the lecture circuit or sell a book, rename it something completely new and convince everyone you have re-invented the wheel.
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Re: OK, Let's open the "pole drop" can of worms

Unread postby grandevaulter » Sun Aug 04, 2013 11:55 pm

If it's a "drop" call it a "drop". If you want want to be" clear", be clear. If you want to be "exact", be exact. Avoid any confusion or implications. "Klar" "Genau"

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Re: OK, Let's open the "pole drop" can of worms

Unread postby souleman » Wed Aug 07, 2013 9:32 pm

Fact is that my using the term "pole drop" is relatively new for me. What I see all too often up here is a young or older vaulter going from carry to plant in the last couple of steps. (The girls are especially prone to this). I tried "you have to lower the pole earlier" and "your plant is too late". As to the last statement their plant wasn't too late because they hit the box and took off (crummy result but they got off the ground just the same). All within the last two steps or so. Then I got to thinking, "let's break the last six steps down into three separate occurrences". The pole drop, the plant and then the take off. First time out I told my vaulter (and many since) "your pole drop is too late, it needs to start at 6". (Granted we all know it starts at the top of the runway from near vertical to about 45 degrees by 6 out. But the drop I talk about to them begins at 6 out)Once they put that picture in their melons, BINGO! The plant got better and the take off more effective. So my guys and gals know exactly what I'm talking about when I refer to a pole drop. It took me a while to get around to this realization but I'm there now and I don't plan to change. Not saying it will work for everybody but for my guys and gals it does.
Last edited by souleman on Wed Aug 07, 2013 11:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: OK, Let's open the "pole drop" can of worms

Unread postby grandevaulter » Wed Aug 07, 2013 11:16 pm

Performing dozens of three step plant drills inside in the winter and early spring typically produce an early plant. I haven't had any of my kids jamb plants since using this drill. This self corrects with three/six step vaults followed by longer multiple longer approaches. More drills and short vaults, the fewer words I have to say and the more I listen to the vaulter tell me how well it works.

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Re: OK, Let's open the "pole drop" can of worms

Unread postby souleman » Wed Aug 07, 2013 11:48 pm

Grandvaulter. We're working on the drop and plant phase at club. I've put what I think you are talking about in the mix. My question is, is that 3 lefts or 3 steps total? 3 lefts would have the tip at 45 degrees with top hand at hip and three steps would have the top hand at the shoulder (or thereabouts). If you could post a video of that drill I'd love to see it. I think I know what you are talking about but a video would confirm it. During our summer sessions we are spending more time with drill and technique work and less time (at this point) in the pit. So drills that work are always welcomed and appreciated.

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Re: OK, Let's open the "pole drop" can of worms

Unread postby grandevaulter » Mon Aug 12, 2013 11:32 pm

Three total. It starts with the left back, unlike the approach. I'll get a guinny pig to video this week. Sorry it took so long to respond. I didn't read you post carefully. Just had my girls plant synched at a 5 step, moved her back to a 6 and she started her plant two strides early. Aaagh! I could probably have her do a walk two, jog two and run two from a six and get this straightened out.

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Re: OK, Let's open the "pole drop" can of worms

Unread postby souleman » Tue Aug 13, 2013 9:52 pm

I'm a believer in Alan's 1-2-3-plant-2-3 but I have been so left foot oriented throughout my career that making the right foot be 1 in this is hard for me to coach. It's does work though.

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Re: OK, Let's open the "pole drop" can of worms

Unread postby tsorenson » Tue Aug 20, 2013 3:08 am

Three lefts, stiff pole and bending pole vaulting with the pole starting at about 45 degrees. Your vaulters will have to learn how to drop (and control) the tip of the pole while accelerating into the takeoff. No strange weirdness from starting off the left foot, just the essence of vaulting which will be translatable into any length approach.

I have always used "1-2-3-start-curl-press" because it's what I learned from Don Hood back in the day, and it works. I also like Alan's counting system. I tend to suggest a few different counting systems to kids I coach, and let them decide for themselves what works best for them. The best male vaulter I've coached yet couldn't count steps, but developed rhythmic breathing. The best female vaulter we have worked with only counts lefts.

One thing I will say about the pole drop, is that a fast drop of the tip, accompanied by the necessary acceleration, is a common factor that all the best vaulters share. Lavillenie is especially good, as was Bubka, and Isinbayeva.

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Re: OK, Let's open the "pole drop" can of worms

Unread postby ashcraftpv » Tue Aug 20, 2013 8:22 pm

I usually don't emphasize the "drop" aspect of the plant motion as I do "getting your hands up". Too often with beginners (and some of my intermediate vaulters) they attempt to "steer" (my term) the pole tip into the box. In most cases, this causes a late plant/bad takeoff due to not getting full arm extension at the plant (and often causes them to overstride and lower their hips during the run). If the pole carry is correct, gravity brings the pole top down for you. All you need to focus on is getting full extention of the arms and keeping the top hand close to the body to keep the pole in alignment. It takes some repetition to get comfortable, but lots of good reps on the slidebox works well for me.
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Re: OK, Let's open the "pole drop" can of worms

Unread postby souleman » Sat Aug 31, 2013 12:14 pm

Now we're talking! I'm learning a lot from this. Thanks to everybody for contributing to this thread. We are going till the end of October (if the weather holds out) and I'm adhering to the 1-2-3 plant-2-3 method described in the book. For me it's an experiment to see if we are effective with this approach. We consider ourselves lucky to be spending as much time as we are on this seeing that there are no competitions coming up for club members till next March. I have to keep reminding myself of this as well so I will allow the time needed to get this down as best as the club members can. So far they are getting it and using it for the most part but I realize that some modifications may be needed when we focus on the last part of the jump for which we haven't gotten to yet. It is kind of fun (and frustrating at times) when I bring them over to the pit after drill work. For the most part I just sit back and watch to see how much of the drill work transfers to the pit. Obviously I don't see immediate 100% perfection in the vaulters technique but with each week I do see an improvement and hopefully that's what we all strive for.

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Re: OK, Let's open the "pole drop" can of worms

Unread postby grandevaulter » Sun Sep 01, 2013 3:26 pm

souleman wrote: I'm adhering to the 1-2-3 plant-2-3 method described in the book.

The book / Vid shows the author starting beginners with the three step first (starting with the left)and then moving to the 123 (starting with the right) plant 23. But I wouldn't pick and choose, I'd also adhere to the book (and authors suggestion) and go with the "controlled lowering". :)


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