Approach run misconception.

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fishman4god
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Re: Approach run misconception.

Unread postby fishman4god » Thu Aug 16, 2012 2:17 pm

The six step mid is not a system that guarantees a vaulters success or their a ability to beat another vaulter that may be just a better athlete. The purpose of the six step mid is to build consistency with a built in check mark. The check mark can then be referenced to determine if the grip height is relative speaking safe. You really cannot use it in reverse. Many vaulters miss that part. The mid determines the grip the grip does not dictate the mid. Variance is a product of inexperience , weather, conditioning,confidence, strength and the list goes on. Beginners need a good consistent run to build technique and of course safety. The six step mid is not everything that you need to jump well but we all know that the run must be good or the rest of the jump is a salvage job at best

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Re: Approach run misconception.

Unread postby dj » Thu Aug 16, 2012 5:37 pm

I actually wrote Confuse-us.. trying to be clever.. what I was alluding to in the 5 meter 10 meter diving comparison was in reference to all the short run vaulting going on, BUTT we continue to think we can "short run" vault in practice and use a "real" run in competition.

There again my "opinion" has come from the continued "complaints" that the vaulterand coaches are making; these are direct quotes not only form this thread but from some pretty good coaches; "he/she doesn't have enough speed on the runway, he/she ran out of gas before the pant, he/she is not consistent from a longer run, he/she stretched the last step, he/she had a late plant, he/she had the pole tip too high in the last 4/6 steps.

All of these thing are directly correlated to the run. And we run the way we practice.

The definition of "crazy" is; doing the same things day after day, year after year but expecting a different result.

I have/will make myself available to coach our elite/emerging elite jumpers on the run (between now and Rio) and show them how to train to get to the plant/TO with speed, posture and "Bam"… anyone what to take advantage of this offer is very welcome to get in touch with me.

I promise you, it will not be what you have been doing, but it will be what you need to get better.

dj

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Re: Approach run misconception.

Unread postby Andy_C » Fri Aug 17, 2012 12:06 am

dj wrote:I actually wrote Confuse-us.. trying to be clever.. what I was alluding to in the 5 meter 10 meter diving comparison was in reference to all the short run vaulting going on, BUTT we continue to think we can "short run" vault in practice and use a "real" run in competition.

There again my "opinion" has come from the continued "complaints" that the vaulterand coaches are making; these are direct quotes not only form this thread but from some pretty good coaches; "he/she doesn't have enough speed on the runway, he/she ran out of gas before the pant, he/she is not consistent from a longer run, he/she stretched the last step, he/she had a late plant, he/she had the pole tip too high in the last 4/6 steps.

All of these thing are directly correlated to the run. And we run the way we practice.

The definition of "crazy" is; doing the same things day after day, year after year but expecting a different result.

I have/will make myself available to coach our elite/emerging elite jumpers on the run (between now and Rio) and show them how to train to get to the plant/TO with speed, posture and "Bam"… anyone what to take advantage of this offer is very welcome to get in touch with me.

I promise you, it will not be what you have been doing, but it will be what you need to get better.

dj


I actually do agree with you that not practicing the long run enough is detrimental to competition performance, but there has to be a compromise. The short run has too many benefits to just give up: technical focus, technical breakdown, repetitions, preservation, injury preventive conditioning. I know that coaches who share the same beliefs I do often come to a debate at where that compromise is. What I also know is that nobody will eliminate either one from their training at any point of the season entirely, with the exception of probably the very short run during competition phase. I should point out that the short step runs should not last the entire training season. The length of the run practiced in actual vault practice is adjusted during the course of the season.

With the short run, I'll actually refer to gymnastics to follow up on my point. Probably the biggest misconception (or lack of understanding) with the involvement of gymnastics in pole vault is in the "breakdown and build up" process of learning - which is one of the fundamental ideas for why we use the short run in the first place. When people think gymnastics for pole vault they usually comment on what's absolutely obvious; you need the core strength and specific movement patterns. Yes, that's fine. What people miss out on is how the human brain actually learns physical tasks; Motor Learning Theory. When a gymnast learns how to use a pommel horse for example, they don't go right up to the horse and learn how to use it. Same with pole vault, you should not just pick up a pole and run somebody back from full distance. The gymnast will first learn about body tension and control, then they will learn to coordinate on a mushroom. On the mushroom they will first master the start and initial rotation. Then they will learn how to do more rotations. Then finally they will move onto the horse itself. When they do go on the horse, they learn the different skills in the same methodical pattern of building up from small steps to larger steps.

With the pole vault:
Getting 2 steps into take off right is very simple, when you do it then 4 steps into take off are much easier to accomplish.
When you get 4 steps right then 6 steps are much easier to accomplish.
When you get 6 steps right then 8 steps are much easier to accomplish.
vs
Go to 16-18 steps and try to get everything right
You can try to use various methods at 16-18 steps, there are various ways of breaking down the full run up itself. But the other build up method has it's own inherent benefits.

Don't get me wrong, the full run up should be practiced every week on the track. The best approach I have observed is the "bookend" approach where you build from the shorts steps at the pole vault pit while practicing the long run up at the track at the same time. I'm not incredibly versed at Olympic diving, but I would be led to believe 5m and 10m are two different events performed with different parameters. Perhaps the skill-set share a lot of similarities but ultimately you're comparing different things. Pommel horse is one event/apparatus. Pole vault is one event. The 5m and 10m comment is probably making a point about training specificity - which is a very good point. If you train at nothing but 6 step pole vault then that's all you're ever going to be good at. But if you only ever train at 16-18 steps for pole vault then you run a very big risk of not being able to perform technically at your best because you are not playing in tune (at least not to the best degree) with the "pathways" of how the human brain learns physical tasks. Gymnastics, martial arts and dancing - probably the most technically demanding sports/performance events, I can tell you from personal experience, all taught the same "build up" way. As I understand, it was the Soviets (led by Yuri Volkov) who first made it a system wide practice to link gymnastics and pole vault. When the correlation between gymnastics and pole vault was first made, it's a shame that this important tie between motor learning theory and the two events was not put at the forefront of this entire concept. I know for a fact Volkov was a huge supporter of the idea but it must have lost steam somewhere else, possibly with the transition to the west. There would be vastly improved technique all over the world if coaches understand how to teach the pole vault the way a good gymnastics coach can teach gymnastics.

Now, if you have found another (better) way of applying motor learning theory into the run up involving largely predominant or exclusive use of the full run, this is a completely different story! Until that happens however, I personally will never doubt the utility of the short run and would not eliminate it from training. At the same time however, I would never doubt the usefulness of the full run as it is event specific training. Both are required to succeed in my opinion. The argument in my mind is in how much of each should we use.

-Andrew
Hard work is wasted energy if you don't work wisely!

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Re: Approach run misconception.

Unread postby dj » Sat Aug 18, 2012 2:48 pm

hey

I actually do agree with you that not practicing the long run enough is detrimental to competition performance


this is/was the only point i was trying to make..

i agree with continuing what you are doing and every short run process you have that has gotten you to where you are now... that (short run as a "part") is what makes the "system" Whole-Part-Whole work.

i just know we are not "transitioning" (short to long) correctly and need to spend time doing just that.

there are ways to "practice' the full/long run on the track (safely), getting it correct and then knowing how to transfer that practice onto the runway with less time spent "adjusting in paractice or in meets. that is the training we seem to be missing.. and that i use the six stride "tool" to help me "transition" with less effort, less chance for injury, more efficient and less frustrating. That was one of the major issue that Tim Mack illuminated in 2004 that he did not do in 2000, the run and where he was six steps from the takeoff was more correct.

dj

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Re: Approach run misconception.

Unread postby rainbowgirl28 » Sat Aug 18, 2012 3:17 pm

grandevaulter wrote:High school kids that jump 4 months a year are not "typically"going to benefit from this mid chart. I really appreciate the time and thought put into this.


I disagree with that. Kids can jump high without using a mid, but I think the average kid benefits from a coach using mid marks consistently, especially if the coach was previously watching the takeoff step themselves.

I find it much much easier as a coach to catch mids because I can then watch the entire vault. If I catch a takeoff I miss the jump. I can tell from watching the whole jump if a kid is under/out/on, I don't need to see their takeoff step. But I could still have someone else catch it if I thought it was important.

I have consistently found that high school kids should be within a foot or so of dj's chart. If they are not, they generally need to work on improving their running mechanics (something most HS kids need anyway).

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Re: Approach run misconception.

Unread postby dj » Sat Aug 18, 2012 4:54 pm

hey


thanks rainbow... this is exactly how the MID, as a tool, is used to give the coach credible feedback that then can be used to make adjustments if necessary...

well said.

dj

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Re: Approach run misconception.

Unread postby grandevaulter » Thu Aug 23, 2012 9:45 pm

Correct me if I am wrong please. If a vaulter is at top speed six steps out from the take off and decelerates drastically into the plant. The out come is typically a poor vault. The greatest amount of poor vaults that I saw this year were a result of kids starting fast and slowing down or not getting moving at all.

Thanks for the suggestion Rainbow. I happen to be able to catch the take off step and see the vault by using marks on the runway. Video, watching the vault and catching the step is impossible for me. The kids in our division at the State meet used short 70' approaches and put the smack down on my kid with the long approach and a six step mid.

I did have two in the top ten.

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Re: Approach run misconception.

Unread postby AVC Coach » Fri Aug 24, 2012 6:28 am

Correct me if I am wrong please. If a vaulter is at top speed six steps out from the take off and decelerates drastically into the plant. The out come is typically a poor vault. The greatest amount of poor vaults that I saw this year were a result of kids starting fast and slowing down or not getting moving at all.



Most of the time, that deceleration is due to a poor pole drop. Especially if the steps are on at the mid.

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Re: Approach run misconception.

Unread postby dj » Fri Aug 24, 2012 10:12 am

good morning,

thanks AVC..

this is the point i have been trying to make. the only reason a jumper will "run out of speed" (because you cannot physically be "out of speed" in a 30/40 meter acceleration) is from "forced" stretched steps.

this is one of the major issue that effected Tim Mack in 2000 that he corrected in 2004. He had better posture, similar speed, better pole drop and a "tighter" "MID" (six steps) that allowed him to increase the "turn over", drop, plant and attack at the takeoff.

Again the reason I monitor a SIX step "MID" are these.

First six is far enough out that I will have a "hint" to what may happen as the vaulter continues into the takeoff. If I "think" out I can intuitively look for "stretch" over the next few steps. If I "think" under I can look for "chop" or event "backing off" over the next few steps. I still have time from six to follow the vault flow into the takeoff. The athlete "posture/actions" and the athlete themselves will "feel" OUT or UNDER.

Two; Long jump athletes used a six step check many years ago. I "luckily" got that information (from a Russia publication) in the 60's and confirmed "why" from one of America's top long jumpers in the 60's. The "why' was this; a long jumper needed a consistent, fast run. A run that had less "steering" (when an athlete's "feels" they are off and chops or stretches to be on the board/correct takeoff point) was faster resulting in longer jumps (physics). What was found was "steering" generally took place four to six steps from the board ( I am sure Alan (and I'm saying this from respect not derogatory) was/is aware of this info because much of our learning backgrounds may have been from the same time period and similar. So the Russians, from whom I got my first information, in the 60's used a mark six steps from the takeoff in the long jump.

(Long Jump article.. I started using it in 1971 for myself and two high school boy pole vaulters)

So if the athlete was "ON", there would be less "steering", more speed and better and more accurate jumps. Somewhere along the way here in the states especially the long jumpers switched to 4 steps and started teaching this in clinics, coaching education and camps! Big mistake.. if you check a mark "after" the "steering" is done you have accomplished nothing more than allow the athlete to slow, change posture and attack out of position and with less speed.

So I chose to stay with 6 because it has given me the right reasons to use a check mark in the first place.

I chose to use a six in pole vaulting for the same reasons and because speed is stride length and stride frequency related I was able to mathematically draw some comparison to the average amount of speed (stride lengths) needed to "move" a specific grip to vertical. That comparison was correlated from 6 steps to takeoff. That's the chart.

In my college days every Physical Education major or Master's degree student had to take courses in statistics, very intense math courses taught by the Physical Education instructors that demanded that you learn how the mean, media and mode played a roll in how you taught and coached and structured your program based on those numbers.

Most PE teachers from my time had those classes.

Fortunately I have used that info for 40 plus years and have been "lucky' to have at least the best runs of all the athletes on the runway. Maybe not the world record holder but at least the maximum speed and accuracy that athlete is capable of. Giving them a fighting chance to win.

Thanks guys for the discussions… don't know if we need more of the "MID" discussions on here.

Thanks Becca..

I have taken a job at a D1 University, no more going overseas to work, unless I'm taking elite athletes to compete. Start Monday when it will be announced. I'm excited about using my experience and developing to really good athletes, Decathlon-Heptathlon and Jumps is my assignment.

dj

ps here is how i approach the approach run

"come out of the back (natural acceleration) get your feet down (from six step mid in) plant big"...

http://www.oneapproachrun.com
Last edited by dj on Sat Aug 25, 2012 9:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Approach run misconception.

Unread postby rainbowgirl28 » Fri Aug 24, 2012 10:29 am

grandevaulter wrote:Thanks for the suggestion Rainbow. I happen to be able to catch the take off step and see the vault by using marks on the runway. Video, watching the vault and catching the step is impossible for me. The kids in our division at the State meet used short 70' approaches and put the smack down on my kid with the long approach and a six step mid.


Using a mid mark did not hold your kids back. My kids get beat by kids who don't use mids as well, but I think using a mid mark helps me coach my kids to the best of their ability.

As far as long run, I disagree with DJ on the use of long run with novice high school vaulters. 70' is an adequate run for the technical proficiency of most high school vaulters, and I find that longer often leads to a less consistent run and technique. I find that while DJ's rants against short run probably carry some weight with our elite vaulters, that they are not sound advice for most HS vaulters.

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Re: Approach run misconception.

Unread postby dj » Fri Aug 24, 2012 12:14 pm

As far as long run, I disagree with DJ on the use of long run with novice high school vaulters. 70' is an adequate run for the technical proficiency of most high school vaulters, and I find that longer often leads to a less consistent run and technique.


Good morning,

Actually it may look like we "disagree" but we really don't rainbow... i think we are actually on the same page.. length of run goes with the "development" of the athlete. 8 to 10-6 foot vaulters will normally have runs of 10 to 12 strides.. but i do feel that getting them to 12 strides (6 left) is the first goal and gives the best natural rhythm, with a lot of 4-5 left/8-10 strides before that and a 12 stride (3 left acceleration into a six step "MID" appropriate to the grip) is 60 to 65 feet.. a 14 stride is next @ 70-74 feet.

Where i/we are seeing the most problems is in trying to move back to 12-14 strides, having a problem and being very quick to move back, forward and to shorter runs, before we consider the six step "MID" numbers and why they have the potential to give the feed back to succeeed more often than not.

And example is this.. a high school girl with a good coach that had vaulted himself, is jumping great from 5 lefts. They choose to move back to 7 lefts, they had done this many times and had good results occasionally in some meets but not consistently. They used a 4 mid but i checked a 6. From the 5 left she was at 38 and gripping 10-8ish. When they moved back they only moved the grip up 4" to 11 feet. She moved back from numbers they had used before. She started stretching and running through.. why? Her 4 step was only about 6 inches out.. BUTT her 6 step "MID" that i was chacking was now 41 feet! A 3 foot difference between a 5 left and a 7 left is way to much. She had no choice but to stretch, loose speed and not go up. They didn't want to move her in on her run because the purpose of 7 was to have a longer run... plus they had used the same run in a meet and set her PR.. but they didn't know what the 6 step was in that jump.. only the 4..

Over and out..

dj

ps... after all the "MID" discussions the ONE major element, if you pay attention to the six step "MID" as you are moving your steps back and your grip up, logic will tell you if the proportions are off.. if you were not stretching at a 38 "MID" but are now stretching and not going up with a 41 "MID" obviously where you are six step from takeoff (six step :MID") is an issue to be considered.

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Re: Approach run misconception.

Unread postby grandevaulter » Tue Oct 23, 2012 4:07 pm

I'm starting with a new group of vaulters. We graduated the three seniors and I have six middle school kids and one Sophomore. Last year with 5 kids at the pit, at different levels I did not get as much done with him as I wanted.

I'm slowly getting reeled in and will use the mid chart or the 3 lefts to start with and progress as the chart indicates. The more I read in this forum the more I understand the progressions and dj's chart.


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