Unprofessional coaching behaviour

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grubbs.randall
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Re: Unprofessional coaching behaviour

Unread postby grubbs.randall » Tue May 11, 2010 11:11 am

I don’t mind other coaches coming to me to discuss my athlete’s technique. But; don’t make suggestions to my vaulter.
They don’t know where my athlete is in there development and may only confuse them. I hear bad advice given at every track meet. Instead of correcting the problem, they try to correct the effect. It starts from the ground up!
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Re: Unprofessional coaching behaviour

Unread postby Barefoot » Thu May 13, 2010 3:48 am

Altius...

I've continued to think about whether I'm making a mistake encouraging my kids to engage with other vaulters and coaches. So I've been watching and listening over the last couple of meets. And I realized I didn't fully answer your questions...

Communication differences...

Yes they do hear the kind of stuff that I don't teach or preach. The benefit is that it gets my kids thinking and talking. The downside is that they could take the bad advice... something which has not happened yet. Anyway, I don't tell them to "take" the advice... but I do think hearing other ideas does frame our technical model by comparison and sometimes I do hear better ways of stating what I've been preaching for months. Honestly, the worst things my kids do, they come up with on their own. I suppose I liken "hearing bad advice" at a meet to locker room talk about sex and drugs... we can tell kids to "just say no" and silently hope they don't smoke that joint, or we can discuss what they hear and see. I know there's no way to stop them hearing or seeing "bad" things that they may want to try. But for the moment, I prefer to have it out in the open, and sometimes... sometimes the locker room talk has wisdom that this coach doesn't see. Some of the best athletic advice I ever got did not come from my coach.

"Technical changes during meets..."

Depends on the meet and the vaulter. Early meets, given our short season, may indeed be the time to introduce an idea. By late season, we're locked in to what we have and focus on jumping the jump and the kids know this. Moving steps we do a lot in small increments based on wind, runway speed and meet adrenaline, though you are right about steering. My kids are taught that steps being under or out can be for various reasons... if someone they don't know suggests moving them, they know to ask me or a designated team mate if I am absent. My general position is that technical advice during a meet is for practice consumption if at all.

"Coaches with big reps..."

I don't know any high school coach with a big rep. In fact, I think most kids would likely follow the advice of a fellow kid who vaults a foot or two higher, before listening to another coach. Private coaches have some rep, but I doubt most of my kids know or care who they are. I don't think one of my kids could pick Jan Johnson out of a line-up. Though they might recognise you by your voice from the DVD.

"Victory has a thousand fathers..."

Haven't noticed this... The kid whose going to win the meet usually has their coach in tow anyway, has far less need for advice, and is usually left to their own devices. Most unsolicited advice seems to be directed at the coach-less kid who's take-off is three feet under and who's landing near the standards.

Two other things...

1) As stated before, I only coach from Feb/March to May/June. If a kid is working with a private coach (I've had a few), I have to integrate/understand what they are getting elsewhere. So perhaps I'm used to the notion of dealing with other coaches' ideas. Or perhaps my lack of experience/time means I don't have a sufficiently entrenched view how to achieve my preferred technical model. The best vaulters in the State mostly come from year round vault programs... I can't commit that time, and doubt the vast majority of "coaches" could either. Any athlete I have that wants to go "full time" must find a private coach. I then have many discussions with that coach and the vaulter to make sure we are at least using the same playbook.

2) When good high school vaulters go to college, many will be moving into a situation where their new coach is using possibly a whole new language/system, or they will not have a vault coach at all... At this point many vaulters seem to falter. I want my kids to be able to succeed at the next level. If they are conversant in the variable language of the vault and other technical models, I hope they will have better odds of success when they leave my nest. Since there is no unified technical model in American pole vaulting, and virtually no vaulter will be presented the same model from beginner to elite (aka Bubka), a vaulter needs to be a student of the sport. I may teach "Petrov", but what happens if their next coach is a tuck and shooter?

For now, I'm keeping lips locked (that would be the usual business anyway) with other team's vaulters... coach or no coach... cause this thread is making me a little paranoid that I'll piss off some really fine coaches. I'll still encourage the dialogue for my kids, cause someday soon they WILL be with some other coach, at a camp, on their own, or off to college. And I will stay watchful for the disaster scenario or negative effects.

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Re: Unprofessional coaching behaviour

Unread postby kmonty51 » Tue Aug 24, 2010 1:27 am

"One of the things I have always loved about the vault is the communal aspect. Seriously, when was the last time an opposing football coach gave a player advice? Precisely because of this communal nature I encourage my kids to seek out other vaulters and coaches... sometimes they have the answer I myself was looking for, sometimes they don't. But it keeps the athlete coach dialogue going and we sometimes build a better mousetrap."


When I came into pole vault coaching 4 1/2 years ago, I knew absolutely nothing. I agreed to do it because I had a strong background in track and field, and our high school was probably not going to have the event if I did not step in. My first step, other than learn about fundamental safety, was to seek out other coaches. I got tremendous help from coaches on this forum and two coaches in our conference that I identified as very knowledgeable who cared about all kids, not just their own. I made sure my kids knew where I was getting my knowledge from, and told them they could listen to them any time those coaches chose to speak to them. Otherwise, the head nod and "thank you" applied. I don't feel the others were ill-intended. I think they meant to help my athletes and me. The communal aspect of vaulting that Barefoot speaks of is a great thing about pole vaulting. It is a big reason I kept working and learning. In my very many years of coaching, I had never experienced such a cooperative atmosphere of good will and good sportsmanship. We all wanted to win, but we wanted our jumpers to win when the others were at their best. Above all, we wanted everyone to be safe! I never got angry with the others because I think they wanted to help; some just knew far more than others. It was my job to sort out who the bonafide pole vault coaches were, then make sure I and my kids were listening to them only. To their credit, the good ones would never speak up unless I asked. I'm proud to say that now, 4 1/2 years later, some coaches ask me for advice. It's knowing how to sort the wheat from the chaff that's important. It's also important to know what you know and what you don't before offering advice.

p.s. How do you do the quote thing on this forum? I'm from the mimeograph age!
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Re: Unprofessional coaching behaviour

Unread postby indestructo » Fri Aug 27, 2010 8:24 am

I don't see a lot of tampering by coaches at the meets I go to here in Michigan. When I see a reputable coach, I'll let my athletes know that that guy over there is such-and-such, he's a great coach. That way if I am not around they know who the good coaches are and who to ask for advice. I am also a firm believer in the athlete being a student of the sport. They need to observe and break down vaults as well. By year 3 or 4 they start to get the hang of it and start picking up which coaches teach good mechanics.

Personally, I generally only offer advice when asked by the athlete or coach. If its a safety concern, I will offer advice. But its only of the "lower your grip" variety; just basic adjustments to keep the event safe. If I see an athlete and his coach struggling with something in particular, I may walk up to the coach and ask if he's having trouble with that and has he tried this? (this is also said out of ear-shot of the athlete) Now I premise this with the fact that I've developed relationships with these coaches over the years, so they also know my reputation. I generally stay away from a coach if this is my first time meeting them.
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Re: Unprofessional coaching behaviour

Unread postby master » Sat Aug 28, 2010 12:48 am

kmonty51 wrote:p.s. How do you do the quote thing on this forum? I'm from the mimeograph age!

Here is info given to another poster who had questions about quoting a post.
viewtopic.php?f=37&t=19865&p=142441&hilit=quote#p142441
- master . . . http://www.plvlt.com

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Re: Unprofessional coaching behaviour

Unread postby kmonty51 » Sat Aug 28, 2010 9:53 am

Here is info given to another poster who had questions about quoting a post.


Yay - thank you! :yes: I'm moving into the 21st century here!
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Re: Unprofessional coaching behaviour

Unread postby master » Sat Aug 28, 2010 1:41 pm

kmonty51 wrote:
Here is info given to another poster who had questions about quoting a post.

Yay - thank you! :yes: I'm moving into the 21st century here!


OK. Part way there. I notice the quote you created doesn't note who you are quoting. Let me see if I can show how this might happen.

Code: Select all

Below is what was displayed when I quoted your last post.  Because it included a quote from your post, there are two pairs of [quote][/quote] html codes.  You must consider them from 'outside' in.  In this case the first [quote] includes your identification [quote=kmonty51].  The corresponding 'close quote' [/quote] is the final one in that post.  Inside that pair is the other pair.  Note the opening [quote] of the second pair doesn't have an identifier.  So when you want to get rid of an internal quote, look for the opening and closing pair for what you want to get rid of and delete it.  Then the identifier will so everyone knows who you are quoting.

[quote="kmonty51"][quote]Here is info given to another poster who had questions about quoting a post.[/quote]

Yay - thank you! :yes:  I'm moving into the 21st century here![/quote]

So if I wanted to NOT include the internal quote, I would edit it to look like this:
[quote="kmonty51"]Yay - thank you! :yes:  I'm moving into the 21st century here![/quote]
- master . . . http://www.plvlt.com

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Re: Unprofessional coaching behaviour

Unread postby kmonty51 » Sat Aug 28, 2010 2:21 pm

master wrote:
OK. Part way there. I notice the quote you created doesn't note who you are quoting. Let me see if I can show how this might happen.




Like this?
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Re: Unprofessional coaching behaviour

Unread postby master » Sat Aug 28, 2010 8:15 pm

kmonty51 wrote:Like this?

Yup :yes: :D
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Re: Unprofessional coaching behaviour

Unread postby Barefoot » Sat Aug 28, 2010 11:27 pm

Coaches coaching coaches on how to quote on the coaches forum discussing unprofessional coaching behavior.

That there is professional.

kmonty51
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Re: Unprofessional coaching behaviour

Unread postby kmonty51 » Sun Aug 29, 2010 10:45 am

Barefoot wrote:Coaches coaching coaches on how to quote on the coaches forum discussing unprofessional coaching behavior.

That there is professional.



Ha! Well, I guess I have more to learn on computer etiquette than on pole vault coaching. Getting back to the thread,, how many coaches out there volunteer unsolicited to help a someone like I was - brand spanking new, but unlike me, unwilling or afraid to ask for help?
"How old would ya be if ya didn't know how old ya was?" - Satchel Paige

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Re: Unprofessional coaching behaviour

Unread postby Barefoot » Sun Aug 29, 2010 3:10 pm

kmonty51 wrote: Getting back to the thread,, how many coaches out there volunteer unsolicited to help a someone like I was - brand spanking new, but unlike me, unwilling or afraid to ask for help?


Kmonty... If the question is have I ever offered unsolicited advice to a coach? Never offline. This Board is full of unsolicited advice, but there seems to be an implicit agreement that these boards function as a clearing house for ideas and such. Not that everything you get here is sound, or well elucidated, or properly punctuated.

In the real world I have wanted to give some other "coaches" advice... but have never done so. If a coach asks, or engages me in a conversation about their athletes or my athletes and seems to want my thoughts on the matter... then sure, we talk. But with coaches I try never to "coach" them. Its more a friendly conversation and sharing of ideas. Usually I'm asking them for advice to begin with. Even with coaches I know VERY well, I do not proffer unrequested advice. That said... I will offer help in the form of loaning poles, catching steps, sunscreen, sticky, sharing tent space, etc... to any team that is not choc fulla butt-heads. There are some groups I don't want my kids around. As a high school coach, it is important to remember that you and your athletes are ambassadors for your school and community. Generosity and sportsmanship are important to our team.

The consensus thus far in regard to unsolicited coaching of vaulters seems to be that, if the vaulter is below a certain threshold of competency and/or if they are endangering themselves and/or if they have no coach it might be alright to offer help. It is shocking at the high school level how often all three of those criteria are met.

Allan began this thread by noting the unprofessional nature of coaches advising other coaches athletes. He has also stated elsewhere that a central problem with USA pole vaulting in not bad coaching, but a lack in numbers of good coaches. When we see so many un-coached athletes, so many ill equipped vaulters, so many schools phasing out the vault program; its hard to stand silently by. Perhaps the proactive stance we as coaches take to helping our event bleeds into an unprofessional mode where we over-step our boundaries.


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