which is better??

[altius]

"Before this evolves into a peeing contest:" Sorry old son but I am tired of seeing someone continually justify their position on an issue of technique by telling us how many State champions they may or may not have 'coached'. Because as we know, in some States it is possible to be the 'champion' with 10' for a girl or 14' for a boy - and neither performance confirms a great or even an effective technique. As I pointed out on page 273 0f BTB2 "A common problem. especially with inexperienced coaches is the assumption that if an athlete wins a district, regional or state title or even if they pr they must be doing most things well from a technical point of view. Unfortunately this kind of thinking can influence a whole state or even a country so that not only can a successful young athlete become the technical model for other youngsters but the coach becomes a guru among their peers." THEN "If coaches believe that there is a correlation between the height a young athlete jumps and their technique, they should always compare the performance of their athletes with world standards."

So this is not just a one off rant - I have long believed that this attitude can have a negative impact on the development of good technique in a region. So I am attacking an attitude that needs to be questioned - if you had the time you would find that this has been going on for years!

Note that I have no problem with someone justifying their position by presenting evidence - especially visual evidence - of the performance of their athletes -and I have asked for that visual evidence in the past but have never seen any =nor even heights posted - just claims of state titles.

Now it may be that Charly is in fact doing every correctly - I would just like to see some evidence of that.

[golfdane]

"Before this evolves into a peeing contest:" Sorry old son but I am tired of seeing someone continually justify their position on an issue of technique by telling us how many State champions they may or may not have 'coached'. Because as we know, in some States it is possible to be the 'champion' with 10' for a girl or 14' for a boy - and neither performance confirms a great or even an effective technique. As I pointed out on page 273 0f BTB2 "A common problem. especially with inexperienced coaches is the assumption that if an athlete wins a district, regional or state title or even if they pr they must be doing most things well from a technical point of view. Unfortunately this kind of thinking can influence a whole state or even a country so that not only can a successful young athlete become the technical model for other youngsters but the coach becomes a guru among their peers." THEN "If coaches believe that there is a correlation between the height a young athlete jumps and their technique, they should always compare the performance of their athletes with world standards."

So this is not just a one off rant - I have long believed that this attitude can have a negative impact on the development of good technique in a region. So I am attacking an attitude that needs to be questioned - if you had the time you would find that this has been going on for years!

Note that I have no problem with someone justifying their position by presenting evidence - especially visual evidence - of the performance of their athletes -and I have asked for that visual evidence in the past but have never seen any =nor even heights posted - just claims of state titles.

Now it may be that Charly is in fact doing every correctly - I would just like to see some evidence of that.

Fair enough. I know your point of view, and I agree. Just didn't want the point of the original post to get lost on the way (and IMHO, did the poster get it almost right).

[charlie]

Sorry to make ANYBODY feel insecure. I DO NOT take credit for ANYBODY i don't TOTALLY coach!! I do not Claim anything i don't do!! Will not post again!!

[golfdane]

Sorry to make ANYBODY feel insecure. I DO NOT take credit for ANYBODY i don't TOTALLY coach!! I do not Claim anything i don't do!! Will not post again!!

Don't say that. instead, explain what you mean by "or the ELITE way which takes STRENGTH( EARLY-TALL- PRESS SUPPORT)".

Pushing, pulling, rowing, whatever. Almost everything is "legal", if the timing is right, meaning, that it CAN all happen at very specific phases of the jump (consciously or unconsciously).

[altius]

"Sorry to make ANYBODY feel insecure. I DO NOT take credit for ANYBODY i don't TOTALLY coach!! I do not Claim anything i don't do!! Will not post again!!"

Evading the question again! Give us information = PRs/video - about the athletes you do coach. Surely that is not unreasonable if you are going to support your opinion on technique by quoting the results of your athletes.

[altius]

"Now it may be that Charly is in fact doing every correctly - I would just like to see some evidence of that"

Dont think that is an unreasonable statement either.

[VaultPurple]

"Sorry to make ANYBODY feel insecure. I DO NOT take credit for ANYBODY i don't TOTALLY coach!! I do not Claim anything i don't do!! Will not post again!!"

Evading the question again! Give us information = PRs/video - about the athletes you do coach. Surely that is not unreasonable if you are going to support your opinion on technique by quoting the results of your athletes.

Just stop challenging coaches on the forum, I know you are just trying to prove a point, but you know it is going to start a fight. Do that in private messages if you insist, but Becca already had to shut down one thread because of coaches fighting, and usually it is just well respected coaches making themselves like idiots.

Honestly I do not think it matters if he has had 30 world record holders or one girl jump 6 foot. Some coaches have good ideas and athlete performance does not always show it, while I have seen some pretty crappy coaches have athletes jump really high.

A video of a coaches athlete does not always mean the coach is bad if the athletes technique is bad, maybe that athlete is just a very slow learner. Just the same way that some coaches have kids catch on really fast and jump really high because they are massive athletes.

But I never really got the question the reason for the question about the coaches credibility in the first place? I give my high school club coach full credit for any of my performances and I practiced with him once a week, every week for two years. No he was not my schools coach but he was the only pole vault coach I had and he was that way for about 20 vaulters from all around the state that would travel every weekend to work with him. So when a coach says they have 30 state champions from 15 schools that is very believable. And having state champions weather they are 14' or 17', that means you are doing better than everyone else in the area with the talent pool they are given.

I have also seen really good coaches with athletes with crappy technique. The vaulter may not have the best technique in the world, and it may not be what the coach believes in coaching, but they try to get their point across to the athlete and do the best they have with that athlete. The same way that some people say they do not agree with a certain coaches technique they coach from just watching the video of one athlete because they assume the vaulter vaults just like the coach tells them to.

[Tom Wilson]

Charlie might have decided to stop posting and that is a shame because he is truly a coach that excels in teaching the vault, seeing phenomenal success for his vaulters in vaulting and character. As vaulters we need excellent coaches that are willing to give advice. From all I have seen he is right on with what he does. Putting him down from afar really belittles the one attempting to belittle him. Learned that from an excellent family upbringing. I can vouch that at meets his vaulters are at, you hear vaulters, parents and spectators pause and say "wow!" and it is usually one of Charlie's athletes. I admire what he has done and does. Can't sit back and see one try and put him down!

[altius]

To Vault purple and Tom Wilson. I am quite prepared to accept that Charly is an effective coach - and as I indicated above he may indeed be doing everything correctly. My point is that his arguments re technique should stand up on their logic and their connection to biomechanics - but he continually - and I mean continually - refers to the multitudes of state champions he coaches to back up his argument. All I am asking for is some information about those athletes. If he used biomechanics to back up his views I would expect him to be accurate there too!

Sorry I have upset you guys but if you read my quotes above from BTB, this is an issue I have met all too often in the past. As is what I call 'coaching by association'!!

Another issue related to this is the way folk organising clinics advertise them by detailing all of the State champions that have attended their clinics. There may or may not be a correlation between that number and the quality of the clinic.

Vault purple - I take your point but in my view if an athlete works with a coach for a period that athlete should begin to reflect that coaches philosophy of the event in action. AND over a period of time I believe it becomes possible to simply watch a competition in that area and identify a good coach/athlete nexus. Now that probably will stir things up.

[powerplant42]

Coming from someone who knows a thing or two about overconfidence and such... Name dropping, "coaching by association", etc., are things people tend to do when what they're actually doing isn't enough to stand on its own as "the best," or at least better than others nearby. Seen it a lot and have done it a lot myself. Put up or shut up, I learned. So I shut up a while ago, because what I had myself wasn't worth very much. Borrowed wisdom, and a couple of good connections, but zilch of my own. I especially didn't have video or public numbers I wanted everyone to see.

Not accusing anybody of anything, just saying what I've learned through BITTER experience... on both ends. I would absolutely love to see some sort of confirmation that Charlie's stuff is the real deal, because we need solid high school coaches in the U.S. obviously. But until then, I remain very skeptical.

"Another issue related to this is the way folk organising clinics advertise them by detailing all of the State champions that have attended their clinics. There may or may not be a correlation between that number and the quality of the clinic."

Altius, you know how it is in the West, especially in America... We just want everything and we want it NOW. We have to WIN, not develop. We don't have time for that. So this sort of advertising makes sense. "If this coach is getting results, our team will get points if we send this athlete to them."

But there's hope for us still I like to think.

[dheldr01]

I feel so bad that what I thought was a fairly simple question would turn into such a heated discussion. Seriously, I just expected to hear never block out with the bottom arm...

On a side note, I heard a coach refer to pushing the pole UP at takeoff as blocking out?? Would that be an acceptable term to use if it was defining the appropriate technique??

[powerplant42]

Sorry for all the flak dheldr01.

This issue (blocking, pushing "up", etc.) is always a contentious one on here, largely because of how subtle the real action is... Meaning if we were all standing around a box with a pole to demonstrate with, we'd all be pretty much agreeing. The variance in terminology used in the vault is a nearly insurmountable obstacle in a discussion like this unfortunately.

Maybe these videos could be a starting point for discussion...

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 052593028#
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMUQaWfAx48

It really helps to SEE it done right.