Sand Vaulting

[baggettpv]

duh, turn it around. Holding too high for the jump angle they can create and never catch up with the pole because their bodies are pulled in front of the pole. DUH

Rick Baggett
WSTC LLC

[kcvault]

"And my personal view on the swing is you should try to swing the hips, and should never focus on swinging the trail leg."


I would defiantly have to disagree. You ever watch a beginner who tries to go to there back off the ground by swinging there hips, the pole's momentum almost completely stops and there feet drop out instantly. Why do we teach people not to throw there head? because it makes them swing there hips instead of there trail leg, if your on a high bar and you try throwing your head will swinging you will notice your hips swing forward but your feet instantly fall stopping your swing. The trail leg does not swing when this happens like your saying it should, and definitely not in front of the hips. Also when you are spinning giants on a high bar you don't try to swing your hips you kick a little tap swing at the bottom with your legs and the hips follow, you don't try to swing your hips and expect the legs to follow, Because as I said before this would make your feet drop.

In the vault If you swing the trail leg using your hips as a pivot point for you trail leg to swing your hips will move forward and up like there supposed to exactly when they are supposed to as a result of the force you created by swinging your trail leg.

[KYLE ELLIS]

"And my personal view on the swing is you should try to swing the hips, and should never focus on swinging the trail leg."


I would defiantly have to disagree. You ever watch a beginner who tries to go to there back off the ground by swinging there hips, the pole's momentum almost completely stops and there feet drop out instantly.

That would happen if they tensed at the shoulders or pulled down, not from swinging any certain way. Why would anyone ever use a beginner that clearly has no idea what they are doing as an example?? Ever watch Bubka? He keeps his body long and straight as possible during the swing phase, rotating at the shoulders rather than swinging his trail leg and breaking at the hips.

Why do we teach people not to throw there head? because it makes them swing there hips instead of there trail leg, if your on a high bar and you try throwing your head will swinging you will notice your hips swing forward but your feet instantly fall stopping your swing. The trail leg does not swing when this happens like your saying it should, and definitely not in front of the hips. Also when you are spinning giants on a high bar you don't try to swing your hips you kick a little tap swing at the bottom with your legs and the hips follow, you don't try to swing your hips and expect the legs to follow, Because as I said before this would make your feet drop. In the vault If you swing the trail leg using your hips as a pivot point for you trail leg to swing your hips will move forward and up like there supposed to exactly when they are supposed to as a result of the force you created by swinging your trail leg.

Are you trying to swing your foot to the vertical plane or your hips? Swinging the trail leg will move your foot but your hips will not, unless you have already started to lose your hips due to a bad takeoff. I would think the goal would be to swing your hips onto a loaded pole, because swinging a long straight body (like a long shaft on a golf club) will allow for a more powerful swing; keeping the limbs long and extended will also allow the pole to stay bent so that you can get your body on top of loaded pole and catch the ride up.
The only thing that will result when swinging your trail leg is increased passive phases.

[kcvault]

http://www.lehmantrack.com/Images/sergei_bubka.jpg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PXsr8OQ ... re=related

Looks to me like he is keeping his hips low using them as a pivot point as he continuous to swing up with his trail leg his hips will begin to rise after this point as a result of the continued swing of the trail leg. I use a beginner as an example because the goal is how to teach someone how to pole vault. Not tell someone how who already knows how. i think a beginner would be the perfect example of someone in the learning process that these drills would benefit. If you are not supposed to swing a trail leg then what is the point of the term trail leg. People would just say swing your hips. Personally I say take off with your trail leg behind you kick down at the box and continue to swing all the way up to ensure that the trail leg is long generating as much energy as possible. If the focus was on swinging the hips then say good bye to the trail leg and to the inversion.

In the second link notice how Paul keeps his hips low as long as possible hes almost completed his swing and his hips are still low. Which results in a very nice jump. Pause several times between 5 and 7 seconds and you will see what I mean.

[KirkB]

Kyle, I think KC is right about this. Your example of swinging long ... I think ... is more like Hooker's style than Bubka's. There is a definite break at the hips in Bubka's swing (in ALL his competition vaults).

I also agree with KC about beginners v. elites. The biggest problem for a beginner ... I think ... is getting upside down. When you're only clearing 8 or 10 feet (males), it's damn near impossible to have a long swing, keeping the body straight, without flagging out. Instead, you must break at the hips ... shortening your body radius from the top hand ... and get upside down however you can. For many (most?) beginners, this often even includes a bit of a TUCK ... almost by NECESSITY.

Once a beginner evolves (in a year or 2) into an intermediate ... running faster, gripping higher, planting smoother, jumping harder ... then he can start to swing longer ... for all the reasons you explained. But it won't be until you get to Hooker's elite level that you can truly swing as long as he swings without breaking (much) at the hips. Therefore, you may be right in the elite sense, but this is the Beginner's Forum.

And Hooker is an exceptional elite in this regard. Bubka is the one that most vaulters will be the most successful in emulating. What other elite swings as long and as straight as Hooker? Bubka's technique applies to most any level ... Hooker's doesn't.

This discussion is starting to get out of the realm of sand vaulting. Personally, I like the idea of sand vaulting to teach the plant and the takeoff. When you begin to start using sand vaulting as a way to teach beginners how to keep the hips behind the pole, I think you begin stretching sand vaulting beyond its true purpose ... a bit ... unless you consider the takeoff as all the way thru to the inverted-C. This is often considered "finishing the takeoff", so that's fair too ... technically it's still the takeoff. But when you try to use sand vaulting as a way to TEACH HOW TO SWING, then I think you're clearly going beyond the usefulness of sand vaulting.

I'd rather think of sand vaulting as a drill that teaches you how to GET INTO POSITION to stretch to the inverted-C and begin your downswing. As long as you're keeping your top arm straight and your trail leg straight on takeoff ... and you're rotating the pole to vertical, into the pit ... and NOT putting any pressure on the pole with your bottom arm ... then I think that's all you should expect from sand vaulting drills.

Kirk

[KYLE ELLIS]

Kyle, I think KC is right about this. Your example of swinging long ... I think ... is more like Hooker's style than Bubka's. There is a definite break at the hips in Bubka's swing (in ALL his competition vaults).

I also agree with KC about beginners v. elites. The biggest problem for a beginner ... I think ... is getting upside down. When you're only clearing 8 or 10 feet (males), it's damn near impossible to have a long swing, keeping the body straight, without flagging out. Instead, you must break at the hips ... shortening your body radius from the top hand ... and get upside down however you can. For many (most?) beginners, this often even includes a bit of a TUCK ... almost by NECESSITY.

Once a beginner evolves (in a year or 2) into an intermediate ... running faster, gripping higher, planting smoother, jumping harder ... then he can start to swing longer ... for all the reasons you explained. But it won't be until you get to Hooker's elite level that you can truly swing as long as he swings without breaking (much) at the hips. Therefore, you may be right in the elite sense, but this is the Beginner's Forum.

And Hooker is an exceptional elite in this regard. Bubka is the one that most vaulters will be the most successful in emulating. What other elite swings as long and as straight as Hooker? Bubka's technique applies to most any level ... Hooker's doesn't.

This discussion is starting to get out of the realm of sand vaulting. Personally, I like the idea of sand vaulting to teach the plant and the takeoff. When you begin to start using sand vaulting as a way to teach beginners how to keep the hips behind the pole, I think you begin stretching sand vaulting beyond its true purpose ... a bit ... unless you consider the takeoff as all the way thru to the inverted-C. This is often considered "finishing the takeoff", so that's fair too ... technically it's still the takeoff. But when you try to use sand vaulting as a way to TEACH HOW TO SWING, then I think you're clearly going beyond the usefulness of sand vaulting.

I'd rather think of sand vaulting as a drill that teaches you how to GET INTO POSITION to stretch to the inverted-C and begin your downswing. As long as you're keeping your top arm straight and your trail leg straight on takeoff ... and you're rotating the pole to vertical, into the pit ... and NOT putting any pressure on the pole with your bottom arm ... then I think that's all you should expect from sand vaulting drills.

Kirk

Sometimes what it looks like isn't always whats really happening. Kirk are you serious? I think Bubka stays much longer than Hooker, even though I think they both have the same philosophy on the swing. Everyone will eventually break at the hips because It is impossible to swing a completely straight body, but I do believe that is what should be attempted, and I believe that is what Hooker and Bubka try to do. I won't argue anymore, but I uploaded a video to stew in your mind. Its Vitaly Petrov working with Gibilisco.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I49VgJG7q_Y

[kcvault]

http://www.youtube.com/watcgh?v=GzGT_95ZVhY

Strangly Gibilisco swings his trail leg keeping his hips low. He even tucks somtimes, Im not sure if him and every other elite vaulter are trying to do somthing else I just know what they are doing not what they are trying to do. I do those drills Gibilisco is doing also they are called levers and I do them simlpy to build strength since after so many reps of bubkas I needed somthing that was higher intensity. I would rather pay attention to there vault not to drills taken out of context with no exsplanation. Gibilisco demonstrates amazing strength, I belive he does a very apropriate drill to gain strength. However think of it in terms of the vault exstremly slow and inefficent. Gibilisco already cant swing fast enough to get inverted in his vault somtimes and has to tuck, hes definatly not trying to swing his whole body.

http://neovault.com/mem_vv_fun_shank.asp This is the only full body swing I have ever seen. pretty sure it wasnt intentinal though just the bodies reaction to stop the pole from rolling after other things were done wrong.

[KirkB]

Strangly Gibilisco swings his trail leg keeping his hips low. He even tucks somtimes, Im not sure if him and every other elite vaulter are trying to do somthing else I just know what they are doing not what they are trying to do. I do those drills Gibilisco is doing also they are called levers and I do them simlpy to build strength since after so many reps of bubkas I needed somthing that was higher intensity. I would rather pay attention to there vault not to drills taken out of context with no exsplanation. Gibilisco demonstrates amazing strength, I belive he does a very apropriate drill to gain strength. However think of it in terms of the vault exstremly slow and inefficent. Gibilisco already cant swing fast enough to get inverted in his vault somtimes and has to tuck, hes definatly not trying to swing his whole body. ...

Kirk

[altius]

The critical value of sand pit vaulting is that it enables the athlete to develop a free take off much easier than if they use the box. You do not need the precise run required - even from six steps/sorry yanks three lefts - get it approximately right - barrel in, use and upspringing take off and drive the pole up and forward. The emphasis is definitely on jumping UP and "finishing the take off - because it is that emphasis that maximises the energy into the pole (always think of it as a stiff pole) AND also ensures that the take off leg in correctly positioned to initiate the whip swing in the second phase. (Yes I know that it is a continuous chain of energy input but it is easier for athletes and inexperienced coaches if they think of four phases of energy input) The important thing is to ensure that the grip is continually pushed up with an emphasis on driving the pole up and forward - the original examples all show athletes gripping too low to get real value from the drill! The athlete should keep pushing the grip up until they almost stall - then they are about right - until the next session when they again try to push it up!

Because the shock of the take off is reduced and and because the athlete knows that they cannot miss the sand pit - there is less tension in the system and the shoulders stay relaxed.
The athlete must stay behind the pole until it reaches the vertical, if is important because it keeps the body long and the leg positioned correctly for the second phase. One cue is to ask the vaulter to catch the pole on the trailing thigh as they move to maximum height - it may also be useful to encourage them to use the bottom arm - almost completely flexed - to keep pressure on the pole and help them stay behind it.

IF you take a look at the "Teaching the vault" chapter of the BTB dvd you will see 17 year old Lauren Eley executing the drill close to perfection - and in another chapter you will see her converting what she learned from that drill into a full vault - yes I know she cant run yadda yadda but after two years at less than two sessions a week average training she is jumping 12'8 in a major competition. If you go further into the teaching chapter you will see Mitch Fox learning the pre jump drill and after 40 minutes executing a fine pre jump take off in a sad pit.

I am only taking the time to restate this information because far too many coaches do have the slightest idea of the benefits of this drill - and yes it is a drill! If you want to extend the drill and you have a big enough sand pit you can have athletes ( who have got the take off phases correct) after artificially delaying the forward whip of the trail leg - whip it forward to swing up and turn into an almost complete vault. Harder to describe than demonstrate - but shown in BTB with Jamie Scroop just beginning the exercise.

When you have it right you can move to the box and pad.

Finally I must tell the story of what happened in reno this year. I was showing the BTB dvd outside the bar there - it had just got to the chapter with isinbyeva training in the sand pit when a very senior, much honored US coach who happened to be walking by, paused and said in a sneering tone "What is she doing jumping in a sand pit - waste of time". I suspect he did not realise he was watching Petrov and IZZY train or he might not have been quite so critical. However I suggest that until these simple issues are clarified there is little point in looking for 'new models' of vaulting of the kind proposed elsewhere on this site.

I am not entering into any further debate on this - have all the fun you like but as far as I am concerned this information is non negotiable.

[KirkB]

Thanks for taking the time to post this, altius ... it was very informative.

I liked everything you said but this ...

The athlete must stay behind the pole until it reaches the vertical, if is important because it keeps the body long and the leg positioned correctly for the second phase. One cue is to ask the vaulter to catch the pole on the trailing thigh as they move to maximum height - it may also be useful to encourage them to use the bottom arm - almost completely flexed - to keep pressure on the pole and help them stay behind it. ...

I underlined the only part that I disagree with. My belief is that this will lead to bad habits on full-run vaults.

I'm not looking for a debate ... I'm willing to accept our differences in the role of the bottom arm in the Petrov Model. More to the point, I agree with EVERYTHING ELSE!

Kirk

[altius]

I suggest you look any of my vaulters on the dvd - but especially Lauren - to see if they use the bottom arm incorrectly!!!!!! Seriously old son - if you have not seen her you should take a look - this may cause you to eliminate the underlining!!

[VTechVaulter]

So those of you that know some of the international guys... this is Steve Rippon's athlete Steve Lewis, PB 5.75m (18'10). This is their version of and vaulting from a full approach (18steps/9Lefts). The box i a normal box in the sand excepttttt they have cut the back off, so as altius mentioned its nearly impossible to not take off free. Emphasis is on chest drive and staying behind the pole. Now I'm guessing their will be some debate about the amount of left arm used in this drill, however i still think its an excellent example of the drill.

i have posted this video b4, but seems relevant here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i63tjlvr74c