Worst indoor season ever ?

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VaultLove
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Re: Worst indoor season ever ?

Unread postby VaultLove » Tue Apr 26, 2011 2:27 pm

No harm was ever intended. A simple question as transitions are often made globally to what you call Elite. For example there was a young German boy who is probably not much older than his son named Raphael Holzdeppe and he jumped 5.68 very young but could only be considered such elite label as time went on and within the same year he became an Olympian and made 5.80 along the way.

Best of luck, anyway

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Re: Worst indoor season ever ?

Unread postby VaultPurple » Tue Apr 26, 2011 2:29 pm

VaultNinja wrote:
kev44000 wrote:He will go pro. Everything is in place for him. High's and low's,slump's, etc are part of it. Without a money issue everything else comes easier. Ask me about it in two years.


Careful Dad. That's sounds a lot like a direct NCAA violation, that your posting online for all too see. You could be jeopardizing Jacks collegiate career
by posting this stuff. Probably think twice before you speak, swallow your pride a bit for your sons sake and keep that information under your hat.


There is no violation here. He just said everything was in place and money was not a problem. As Jacks dad he can say that, and the parent is pretty much the only person who can. Athletes can not accept money or any of that good stuff from any outside sources for their athletic achievements, but mom and dad can give them anything they want.

I just meant mainly, not just in regards to Jack, that pole vaulting is hard. Even if you are a 19' pole vaulter in college it is tough to keep going with or without money. As long as you are enjoying it, it is the greatest thing on earth. But just like Toby said, it takes over your life, but as long as it is what you want it is worth it. But especially for a college vaulter, no matter how disciplined and driven, it is hard going to bed early on a weekend while all your friends go out and party, spending hours working out a day instead of spending all day laying out by the pool in the summer, dealing with constant nagging injuries, sometimes sacrificing a little extra study time so you can go to bed in college, or things like having a girlfriend complain that you like the pole vaulting more than you like her. It seems that the ones who succeed the most are the ones that put pole vaulting above everything else, and not everyone is willing to do that for 20 or so years.

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Re: Worst indoor season ever ?

Unread postby PVJunkie » Tue Apr 26, 2011 6:02 pm

"Everything is in place" suggests plans have already been made. Each school is allowed to interpret the rules and defend their interp, so it is possible to have 2 very different implementations of the same rule. The comment made implies something and the idea that no violation has been commited is bad advice unless you ran it by his schools compliance office.

If what was implied is that "I am so good that when I graduate or choose to leave school I am sure I will not have a problem getting a sponsor and and agent" (neither of which have already bee arranged because that would be a violation) then its fine.....Vague statements neither get you in trouble nor keep you out of it so you have to be carful.

[quote="VaultPurple]There is no violation here. He just said everything was in place and money was not a problem. As Jacks dad he can say that, and the parent is pretty much the only person who can. Athletes can not accept money or any of that good stuff from any outside sources for their athletic achievements, but mom and dad can give them anything they want.

I just meant mainly, not just in regards to Jack, that pole vaulting is hard. Even if you are a 19' pole vaulter in college it is tough to keep going with or without money. As long as you are enjoying it, it is the greatest thing on earth. But just like Toby said, it takes over your life, but as long as it is what you want it is worth it. But especially for a college vaulter, no matter how disciplined and driven, it is hard going to bed early on a weekend while all your friends go out and party, spending hours working out a day instead of spending all day laying out by the pool in the summer, dealing with constant nagging injuries, sometimes sacrificing a little extra study time so you can go to bed in college, or things like having a girlfriend complain that you like the pole vaulting more than you like her. It seems that the ones who succeed the most are the ones that put pole vaulting above everything else, and not everyone is willing to do that for 20 or so years.[/quote]

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Re: Worst indoor season ever ?

Unread postby atlegu » Thu Apr 28, 2011 1:10 am

As the “foreigner” starting this thread I feel somewhat honored that the discussion have "taken off" however I am sad if someone is offended by what has been written here etc. My original point was just to get a discussion about “if there is something “wrong”” in US pole vault, and eventually what can we do about it. Actually I think US pole vault is quit healthy. However it is certainly things that can be improved. (Looking at the results from "Pole vault in the mall" today, US female pole vault has "the best indoor season ever")

What I know something about is track in Europe (however it varies a lot from country to county). It seems like a common misbelieve that in Europe money come easy. It is far away from the truth. OK, usually the club byes you poles, sometimes they pay some shoes. If you live in a neighborhood with a nice rich man you might get 1000 dollar or so. For sure in most European countries vaulting 5.65 meter does not give you any income to survive on. And one other thing, pole vault is not so special. To be best, most individual sports demand tones of hard work, sacrifice and delaying things like family, vacation and the "normal life".

When it comes to pole vaulting there is no doubt that US has most resources, they have most vaulters, most experienced coaches, most poles, most of basically everything you need to be a good vaulter. Maybe one part of a solution would be more cooperation between high school, colleges, private clubs, and post collegiate vaulters. From outside it seems like the track community in the US is to "divided". From a "whats best for the vaulter perspective" it is silly that a good HS-vaulter can´t practice with the local college team, or that a HS-coach don’t cooperate with the local private club. An event like the Pole Vault Summit and forums such as PVP is great. But it does not help if you can’t collaborate the rest of the year. You have so many rules in US track (or in sport in general) and some of them actually hamper collaboration.

The biggest difference between Europe and US is that in most European countries: top athletes does not study full time. When Becky write
Jack is only a true sophomore. Let's let him enjoy college for a few more years
that is part of the reason why US pole vault might struggle. When Jack “enjoys” college, (means a lot of reading and hard work), his European colleagues train and either study on very slow speed, or have a part time job. By the age of 23 (the time when you finish college) top vaulters from the rest of the world is already living like professional (does not mean that they have money as professional).

US have plenty of good high school vaulters, however when they are around 18-19, they move away from home, get a new coach and have to spend a lot of time on schoolwork. So the college system, which I like in many ways, give US the best educated pole vaulters, but slows them down with three to four year.

Looking at the 12 non-US and the 4 US men that have jumped 6 meter. By the age of 23 the average PR is 5.91 meter for the 12 non-US and 5.64 for the 4 US.
So let the kid start earlier (10-12 years old at least), let them train year round with the best coaches around, and let the best athlete train harder during college (more pole vault less school work).

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Re: Worst indoor season ever ?

Unread postby vtcoach » Thu Apr 28, 2011 1:42 am

US have plenty of good high school vaulters, however when they are around 18-19, they move away from home, get a new coach and have to spend a lot of time on schoolwork. So the college system, which I like in many ways, give US the best educated pole vaulters, but slows them down with three to four year.

Looking at the 12 non-US and the 4 US men that have jumped 6 meter. By the age of 23 the average PR is 5.91 meter for the 12 non-US and 5.64 for the 4 US.
So let the kid start earlier (10-12 years old at least), let them train year round with the best coaches around, and let the best athlete train harder during college (more pole vault less school work).atlegu


But Tim, Brad, Jeff, Toby, and Lojo (close to 6m) all improved greatly in college. Take the same 12 vaulters you looked at age 23 and see what their average vault was at age 18. Also, in the U.S., it is the college system that is keeping not just pole vaulting, but the whole sport of track and field alive.

I would like to see continued growth of the club system. It leads to vaulters starting earlier and it leverages the expertise of some really good coaches. There are some very good high school coaches out there but the average club coach is at a much higher level than the average high school coach. In fact, it is the really good high school coaches that thankfully start clubs and thus impact more young vaulters.

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Re: Worst indoor season ever ?

Unread postby KLocke » Thu Apr 28, 2011 2:05 am

Our college development is and has been crucial. It helps shape young lives. The college educational and social experience allows growth that cannot be experienced from "just pole vaulting". You may not be aware that, Lawrence Johnson set the American record during his college years? At the end of the day, It's just SPORT and if one can no longer participate in pole vaulting, the college experience has enhanced their preparation for dealing with life other than pole vaulting. That college is the vaulters sponsor.


atlegu wrote:
The biggest difference between Europe and US is that in most European countries: top athletes does not study full time. When Becky write
Jack is only a true sophomore. Let's let him enjoy college for a few more years
that is part of the reason why US pole vault might struggle. When Jack “enjoys” college, (means a lot of reading and hard work), his European colleagues train and either study on very slow speed, or have a part time job. By the age of 23 (the time when you finish college) top vaulters from the rest of the world is already living like professional (does not mean that they have money as professional).

US have plenty of good high school vaulters, however when they are around 18-19, they move away from home, get a new coach and have to spend a lot of time on schoolwork. So the college system, which I like in many ways, give US the best educated pole vaulters, but slows them down with three to four year.

Looking at the 12 non-US and the 4 US men that have jumped 6 meter. By the age of 23 the average PR is 5.91 meter for the 12 non-US and 5.64 for the 4 US.
So let the kid start earlier (10-12 years old at least), let them train year round with the best coaches around, and let the best athlete train harder during college (more pole vault less school work).

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Re: Worst indoor season ever ?

Unread postby atlegu » Thu Apr 28, 2011 3:31 am

Our college development is and has been crucial. It helps shape young lives. The college educational and social experience allows growth that cannot be experienced from "just pole vaulting". You may not be aware that, Lawrence Johnson set the American record during his college years? At the end of the day, It's just SPORT and if one can no longer participate in pole vaulting, the college experience has enhanced their preparation for dealing with life other than pole vaulting. That college is the vaulters sponsor


Thats why I wrote
..which I like in many ways
. Because I totally agree that there is more to life than pole vault. And I like the way you combine sport and education in the US. (I am a University professor myself so of course I appreciate that). However studying at full speed at a top college/university is extremely hard to combine with being a professional athlete (again not professional in money term).

So even though I like the idea and think it is extremely important that athlete do something more than just sport. Good college demands to much work that you cant combine it, being what we in Norway call a 24/7 athlete. Thats my point.

And yes I know most of the numbers for the above mentioned vaulters development of PRs etc.

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Re: Worst indoor season ever ?

Unread postby KLocke » Thu Apr 28, 2011 1:38 pm

You are extremely fortunate people in Norway. From 2001-2007 and then again last year, you've managed to measure the highest standard of living. We however, have a major catastrophic budget deficit. And you can only imagine our educational system is not as generous as other countries. I found a Stanford University article that reflects their participation as a College in Olympic Games. Have a look below

http://www.gostanford.com/genrel/071608aaa.html


atlegu wrote:

So even though I like the idea and think it is extremely important that athlete do something more than just sport. Good college demands to much work that you cant combine it, being what we in Norway call a 24/7 athlete. Thats my point.

And yes I know most of the numbers for the above mentioned vaulters development of PRs etc.

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Re: Worst indoor season ever ?

Unread postby dj » Sun May 01, 2011 9:29 am

hello

i could write volumes on this subject and have...

i have been involved with USA pole vault development since 1974.. through the USA Olympic committee and USATF, top coaches and many of the top athletes,,, that is 37 years from a first party, involved point of view or second party... 100's of discussions, phone calls and discussions..

does that make me an "authority" no... does that give me some "perspective"... i think so..

as short as I can write it..

first it's not the money>>>>>>>>>>

second the clubs, summit, mall vaults, beach vaults, etc are one of the best things to happen to vaulting. Produced my first "mall" vault in Montreal in 1979 and my first Beach Vault at Mahattan Beach in 1989.. a second one in '90 and was planning on creating a circuit.. but ego's got in the way and it had to be scraped and I moved on.

What is missing from the Summit, and clubs is …is.. all points of view concerning technique training and how to get to the top are NOT at these "get togethers" ,… or you are attending with your mind set and are not willing to listen to all points and are not knowledgble enough to form your own coaching "language" based on the physics of the event.

the point is... search for information , all.. and "steal' the good for your program.

Here is what you as an athlete and coach should be willing to do. Go to the coaches and athletes that have "been there"… see what they have to say… find what is sound... and then develop, test and form your own "method."

I don't see this happening.. this is where we are making our first mistake.. which is continuing year after year..

Third. The University System produces 99.5% of our Olympians… AND they don't owe you a scholarship. AND they don't want (90%) or need pole vault, consequently they don't need you.

What you have to do is go to the University to get an education, take advantage of the opportunity they will give you with a pit to jump in and meets to go to…. Period..

Only a very few Universities are ever going to do anything with the vault.. Hate to burst your "bubble" but I was national champion in the Indoor NAIA Long Jump, and ranked in the top five in 7 events in the State of Arkansas and went to school on loans and grants.. NO scholarship.. and when I was chosen as Arkansas's Top Amateur Athlete the media asked why I went to x University without a scholarship. I responded that they offered me the best chance to be an Olympian, even without a scholarship, than the other schools.

So bottom line.. Coaches and Athletes that think you have the talent but are no reaching your potential… find the answers from those that have been there... as an athlete or as a coach. Fix it.

dj

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Re: Worst indoor season ever ?

Unread postby SlickVT » Tue May 10, 2011 9:33 am

I always thought that the ideal situation for a budding high school vaulter would be a combination college/club environment.

What I mean by that is finding a good club near a 4-year school with a degree of choice available, and studying part time while training and competing for a club part time.

Holdups and/or benefits with this situation:
1. Funding. Most vaulters (I know there are some exceptions) do not get offered any significant scholarship money, so cost of living (sans overinflated university room and board) would be likely cheaper in the right situation. Working at the club as an instructor (coaching development at a young age) to alleviate cost and create income, would also prove a huge benefit. This would take serious commitment on the parent's part to pay pseudo-tuition costs for a non-fulltime student athlete.
2. Travel. It is expensive, but again, with the right situation, including number of vaulters in the club traveling together, networking, and proximity to college and open meets, could be very doable.
3. Finding meets. There are a lot available, but on some weekends, there are no open sections (AKA conference weekend).
4. Time to degree. Take all of this and multiply by at least 6 years for a part-time student to get their degree at this pace.
5. "Ego". This is likely the biggest holdup. Whether anyone will admit it or not, getting a "jock" (most vaulters enjoy this stereotype) stud athlete to commit to the club/part time student role over a 4-year degree at a major D1 school is tough, especially coming from high school. Most athletes enjoy the recruit-sign-commit process and the attention that comes with it.
6. Life preparation. Time management, learning, and ultimately earning a degree do not hinder the vaulter from starting a career in their field after hanging up the spikes.
7. Huge benefit... don't have to deal with the NCAA. I'm sold:-)


Thoughts?
Vertical Technique Pole Vault Club
Blacksburg, Virginia
verticaltechnique.com

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Re: Worst indoor season ever ?

Unread postby dj » Fri Jan 20, 2012 8:51 am

good morning,

well the PV Summit is on....

in Reno last evening they were supposed to discuss the "answers" to the questions we (Atlegu) have posed here..

there is an answer… and I think this post is and can get us closer to an answer….

So Becca I know you have Eddie with you but post what you can

Thank you

dj

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Re: Worst indoor season ever ?

Unread postby dj » Sat Jan 21, 2012 10:28 am

good morning

Brads jumps

best jumps ever....

tremendous.. congrats...

dj


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