NCAA Mandates new ASTM Box Collar by Dec 2013

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Re: NCAA Mandates new ASTM Box Collar by Dec 2013

Unread postby PVJunkie » Tue Mar 26, 2013 4:37 pm

The new collar from Gill Athletics will not have the ASTM # screened on it anywhere although it has been tested in compliance with and meets the standard. It is not required to be on the product. The actual test results are not available to the public.

The new collar has logos and instructions screened on it. The old collar has no makings whatsoever. It would be glaringly obvious if it were an old collar. There are a handful of new collars out, prototypes, that meet the standard but have a plain casing. We have a list of those sites. There is no requirement for any type of logo or for the ASTM to be listed on the product but it will be obvious, if it says Gill on each wing its the correct one.

The ASTM for the box collar uses a test from another ASTM but has its own set of results that must be met. The required Gmax results for the collar are not tied to another ASTM, only the testing protocol is. Regardless, if the Gmax were reduced to 160, the SafteyMax+ would still meet the ASTM requirements.

Kirk check out the pictures and video here - http://www.gillathletics.com/store/product/safetymax-vault-box-collar?part=719 (upper left corner under "related media")
Real testing with real vaulters during practice and meet conditions has been ongoing for over 4 years at close to 100 sites. There has not been an issue and several of the sites claim one or more instances where they believe the safer design lessened the potential for injury or the injury itself.

Feel free to share your concerns and I am happy to address them. To date nothing new/unique has been called out its just so many people became interested in this topic so late that they were unaware of the monumental amount of work that had already been done.

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Re: NCAA Mandates new ASTM Box Collar by Dec 2013

Unread postby carryabigstick » Tue Mar 26, 2013 10:41 pm

Clearly we see the $$$ at play here. So the "regular" box collar cost 253 bucks. The new collar which looks to be only 10% more material at most is $600 bucks. So for me to cover 3 boxes....we are talking about 1800 bucks. Explain to me again why this collar is more than double the old one? Somebody will make a nice profit off of this. I guess if it protects just one person its worth it, but it seems like its more about the bottom line than anything. Follow the money trail. Hopefully a number of competitors emerge and the prices is driven down.
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Re: NCAA Mandates new ASTM Box Collar by Dec 2013

Unread postby KirkB » Tue Mar 26, 2013 11:32 pm

The new collar which looks to be only 10% more material at most ...

You're not just paying for a little more square footage of material. More importantly, you're paying for a DENSER foam that passes the ASTM missile impact tests. The higher quality the foam, the greater the cost.

I do agree with you re competitive products, but you can't blame Gill for that. They're making our sport safer, so kudos to them for their innovation and market leadership! :yes:

PVJunkie, I had seen those vids, but they're not at all representative of real competitions. In fact, it's almost "negative advertising" because it shows the pole hitting the collar (I know, I know, it's just a drill - but that's my point).

After all the GOOD that Gill has done re this product, it would be more beneficial to show REAL vaults in a REAL competition. Preferably vids not sponsored by Gill in any way (to prevent any accusations of bias from the pundits).

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Re: NCAA Mandates new ASTM Box Collar by Dec 2013

Unread postby KirkB » Tue Mar 26, 2013 11:35 pm

This post is a duplicate of my previous post but I can't delete it, so I'm just deleting its content.

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Last edited by KirkB on Thu Mar 28, 2013 10:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: NCAA Mandates new ASTM Box Collar by Dec 2013

Unread postby carryabigstick » Tue Mar 26, 2013 11:53 pm

So they were using unsafe foam all these years on the old box collars. Great! I was under the understanding that the new box design was more related to the shape and increased surface area coverage than the type of foam used. So the foam and shape are the proprietary components here? This must be some NASA foam to drive up the cost from 250 to 600.
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Re: NCAA Mandates new ASTM Box Collar by Dec 2013

Unread postby NEVaultFan » Wed Mar 27, 2013 12:35 am

I heard that Pat Licari (U of Washington) and Spencer Chang (U of Hawaii) held a meet with the new collar and warm ups went so bad that they had to stop the warm up and cut the "wing" off for the pole vaulters saftey.

Can anyone confirm this?

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Re: NCAA Mandates new ASTM Box Collar by Dec 2013

Unread postby rainbowgirl28 » Wed Mar 27, 2013 2:17 am

NEVaultFan wrote:I heard that Pat Licari (U of Washington) and Spencer Chang (U of Hawaii) held a meet with the new collar and warm ups went so bad that they had to stop the warm up and cut the "wing" off for the pole vaulters saftey.

Can anyone confirm this?


Pat told me that he used the safetymax collar for awhile with no problems, but Toby Stevenson was complaining about it (as a coach) at a meet, and Pat agreed that it was not fair to kids who had never seen one before, so he trimmed back the wings.

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Re: NCAA Mandates new ASTM Box Collar by Dec 2013

Unread postby PVJunkie » Wed Mar 27, 2013 9:09 am

Previous collars were not unsafe there was not a minimum level of performance or design. They were certainly, in most cases, better than no collar at all.

The new collar did go up in cost but it did not double. The previous version of that collar retailed for 533.00 dollars and the new one is 600.00, so it went up well less than 100.00. I assume you are comparing the flat design, and yes, if you are at a college/university that is using that version it is more of a difference.

Kirk can you tell me what it is about a competition that would be different than what is shown in the video. I don't understand what you mean by "they're not at all representative of real competitions". Isn't a vault a vault regardless of the situation (practice/meet/exhibition). I have discussed this at length with others and the video shows a pole being bent more than normal (for most) in a real practice. In a competition the pole would bend less making the collar less of a factor. Those videos were not sponsored by Gill Athletics, they were at a typical college practice one evening. What is it about a competition vault that make the pole move differently in that area that you are trying to call out, maybe I am just missing what you are trying to say?

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Re: NCAA Mandates new ASTM Box Collar by Dec 2013

Unread postby volunteer » Wed Mar 27, 2013 2:02 pm

Pat told me that he used the safetymax collar for awhile with no problems, but Toby Stevenson was complaining about it (as a coach) at a meet, and Pat agreed that it was not fair to kids who had never seen one before, so he trimmed back the wings



Would'nt this be true about all vaulters at one point in time. everyone will see it for the first time sometime. Until everyone jumps with the new colar, someone will have issue with it. I don'th think it would be much different than jumping indoors for the first time, or jumping on a UCS 1800 pit versus 2200 pit for the first time. Every change visually changes the vaulters depth perception and that is the only deal i can see. It will be interesting when the NFHS mandates this too.

We all want safety - More safety is always good. But more cost for NCAA schools is totally different than NFHS schools.

Hope only a few universities have purchased the collar and cut it up making is illegal again

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Re: NCAA Mandates new ASTM Box Collar by Dec 2013

Unread postby KirkB » Wed Mar 27, 2013 9:26 pm

PVJunkie wrote:... can you tell me what it is about a competition that would be different than what is shown in the video. I don't understand what you mean by "they're not at all representative of real competitions". Isn't a vault a vault ... What is it about a competition vault that make the pole move differently in that area that you are trying to call out ...?

Thanks for your question, PVJunkie.

Those aren't "competitive" vaults - those are only "swing-thrus". And the pole DOES touch the collar above the faceplate of the box. I can't tell from those vids whether the pole will touch the collar on a competition or not, so the vid is actually even less than helpful - it may give the wrong impression to viewers.

Those swing-thrus are probably only from 7 or 9 steps at most - not from a full run. The vaulter is in far better control of dropping the pole into the box on these swing-thrus than in a competitive long run vault. He's not running as fast, and his depth perception would be better. Also, the pole's going to bend differently when you land near the back of the coach's box (as you do in a swing-thru). In competition vaults, the grip will be higher, and the arc of the pole will be greater - and possibly more to the corner or side of the bend cavity of the box/collar.

The psychological impact on the vaulter of a different "view" of the box (with yellow padding INSIDE the box - making the box appear different, and smaller) is also a concern.

Hope that explains it better.

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Re: NCAA Mandates new ASTM Box Collar by Dec 2013

Unread postby AVC Coach » Wed Mar 27, 2013 9:57 pm

I still haven't gotten an answer on what happens when the pole tip hits the part of the collar that's draped into the box. Does it slide through to the back of the box or does it stick?

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Re: NCAA Mandates new ASTM Box Collar by Dec 2013

Unread postby KirkB » Wed Mar 27, 2013 10:26 pm

Yes, that's part of my question too - which I failed to mention in my last post.

Not only what happens if the pole tip hits it, but also what are the chances of hitting it? Even if the chances are low, if it introduces a NEW safety risk, then this could be an important issue.

I have no idea how many times a vaulter might be dropping the pole into the box in such a way that it collides with a wing of the collar. It would be a small number - just like the number of times a vaulter misses a regulation box altogether is a small number. But maybe it's going to bounce OUT of the box? Or maybe it's going to ricochet to the other side of the box, then (since the major direction of the force of the pole tip is down and towards the faceplate) settle safely in the middle of the faceplate? I have no idea.

I'm not saying that these are easy tests to do, but I think some high speed video logging of a high number of competition-level vaults is in order to determine the level of ADDITIONAL risk that the collar imposes.

We know the pros, but what are the cons? I'm just looking for a fair analysis by the NCAA before they rule on something that hasn't been thoroughly tested yet.

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