Tie Breaker - 1st Place - You Interpret

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Bigfandave
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Tie Breaker - 1st Place - You Interpret

Unread postby Bigfandave » Sat May 05, 2018 7:28 pm

Who wins or is a jump off actually required for first place?

V1
XO XXO XO O XO XXX
14 146 15 156 16 166

V2
XXO XO XO P XO XXX
14 146 15 156 16 166

West coast High School.

If jump off actually required for 1st place, would bar be placed at what height (and then moved down in 1” increments based on misses, or up 3” increments for dueling makes)?

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Re: Tie Breaker - 1st Place - You Interpret

Unread postby dlgirley » Thu Jun 07, 2018 5:10 am

Hi Bigfandave.
Vaulter 2 is the winner and no jump off is needed. Think of it like this: throw all the marks except 16' and 16'6". Both vaulters cleared 16' on their 2nd attempt and they both missed all three attempts at 16'6". In this situation a jump off is required.

Now throw out all the heights except 14'6". Vaulter 1 cleared on his 3rd attempt and vaulter 2 cleared on his 2nd attempt. In this situation, V2 is the winner because V2 cleared 14'6" before V1 did.

The rule book is not very clear on this. It says to count the number of misses. It should say count the number of misses at the highest height cleared by both vaulters before the tie occurred. The highest height cleared by both vaulters before the tie occurred is 14'6". Vaulter 1 cleared 14'6" with 2 misses and vaulter 2 cleared 14'6" with 1 miss. Vaulter 2 is the winner.

But what about the 14' marks???? The 14' marks are irrelevant because 14'6" is the highest height cleared by both vaulters before the tie occurred. And who cleared it 1st? Vaulter 2.

Now the jump off: (throw out all heights except 16 & 16'6")
Both vaulters exited the competition at 16'6". The official would call both vaulters in and tell them this, "You are both tied for 1st place. This is a jump off situation. The bar will remain at 16'6". You both will have 1 attempt to clear 16'6". If you both miss, the bar will be moved down 3" to 16'3". If you both clear 16'6" the competition will continue with the bar being raised 3" to 16'9". If one of you clears a bar that the other one does not clear, the vaulter who clears the bar will be declared the winner. Vaulter 1 your are up. Vaulter 2 you are on deck. Good luck."

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Re: Tie Breaker - 1st Place - You Interpret

Unread postby pv161 » Sun Jun 10, 2018 2:03 pm

If the tie can't be broken on the last height both competitors cleared the tie is broken based on total misses. In this case it is a tie and the tie would be broken just as dlgirley described.

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Re: Tie Breaker - 1st Place - You Interpret

Unread postby Vaultref » Wed Jun 13, 2018 5:33 pm

lets make this clear, we do not move backwards in height progressions to determine who cleared a height before the other vaulter(s) cleared a height.

The tie break rule is very clear, at the tied height, who cleared with fewest trails at that height determines the higher place.
When that is the same, then whomever had fewest trails thoughout the entire competion gets the higher place.

In this example by bigfandave, both cleared the tied height with one miss..
tie breaker now says who has the fewest number of unsuccessful trials throughout competition up to and including the last height cleared.
Both V1 and V2 have FIVE unsuccessful trials.

That means there *is* a tie for first place and therefore the toe breaker jump-off is to be conducted.

ALL rule codes agree.

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Re: Tie Breaker - 1st Place - You Interpret

Unread postby dlgirley » Sun Jun 17, 2018 3:33 am

Hi Vaultref. I would like to pick your brain a little bit if you don't mind. What is the rational behind having two different tiebreak methods for the vertical events and only one tiebreak method for the horizontal events? Track and Field is all about who crossed the finish line first; who threw the farthest; who jumped the longest; who jump the highest.

SECTION 3 BREAKING TIES
ART. 1 . . . A tie in a jumping event occurs when two or more competitors finish
with the same distance or height.
ART. 2 . . . When there is a tie at any height or distance in the finals of a jumping
event, places and points scored shall be awarded as follows:
a. For places determined by distance:
1. If the distance resulting from the best performance of competitors is
identical, the higher place is awarded to the tying competitor whose
second best performance is better from either the preliminary trials or
the finals.
2. If after (a1) the tie remains, the higher place is awarded to the tied
competitor whose third-best performance is better than the third-best
performance of any tied competitor, etc.
b. For places determined by height:
1. The competitor with the fewest number of trials for the height at which
the tie occurs, i.e., the last height successfully cleared, shall be
awarded the higher place.
2. If the tie still remains, the competitor with the fewest total number of
unsuccessful trials throughout the competition, up to and including the
height last cleared, shall be awarded the higher place.
3. Passed trials shall not count as misses.
4. If the tie remains after applying (1) and (2) and:
(a) It concerns first place, the competitors tying shall make one more
attempt at the height at which they failed. If no decision is reached,
the bar shall be lowered in increments of 1 inch in the high jump
and 3 inches in the pole vault. If two or more of the tying contestants
cleared the height, the bar shall be raised by intervals of 1
inch in the high jump and 3 inches in the pole vault. Each competitor
shall attempt one trial at each height until a winner is determined

In the vertical events, each attempt at each height is its own competition. If vaulter1 clears 10' on his 1st attempt and vaulter2 clears 10' on his 2nd attempt, vaulter1 is leading the competition and would be the winner if both competitors fail to clear the next height. Tiebreak method #1 is consistent with this. However, tiebreak method #2 moves the goal post. The deciding factor is no longer about who cleared the highest height first. The deciding factor in tiebreak method #2 is who had the fewest total number of unsuccessful trials. This method totally nullifies the efforts of the competitor that was leading the competition before the tie occurred.

Speaking of when the tie occurred: When exactly did the tie occur??
Here is the rule: 1. The competitor with the fewest number of trials for the height at which the tie occurs, i.e., the last height successfully
cleared, shall be awarded the higher place.

According to the rule, the tie occurred at 14'.
"i.e., the last height successfully cleared, shall be awarded the higher place." is just an example. Not a very good example but an example none the less. Last as in previous which means you count back or last as in final???? Extremely unclear.

So when did the tie occur? If the tie occurred at 14' then vaulter1 wins. If the tie occurred at 14'6" the vaulter2 wins. If the tie occurred at 15' then the last height successfully cleared was 14'6". Which means vaulter2 is the winner.

In the running events, you don't penalize a hurdler for knocking over hurdles. If he crosses the finish line first he wins. In the vertical events, the bar is the finish line and when a competitor crosses the bar matters. According to tiebreak method #2, when a competitor crosses the bar does not matter.

Please explain that to me.

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Re: Tie Breaker - 1st Place - You Interpret

Unread postby Vaultref » Wed Jun 20, 2018 5:22 pm

Hi Vaultref. I would like to pick your brain a little bit if you don't mind. What is the rational behind having two different tiebreak methods for the vertical events and only one tiebreak method for the horizontal events?
I have no idea. As an official it is not a concern of mine has to why it is the way it is.

Track and Field is all about who crossed the finish line first; who threw the farthest; who jumped the longest; who jump the highest.
Finishing first 'without' having committed a violation while running. Rule committees recognized ties can and do happen in all events and a way is needed to break those ties

SECTION 3 BREAKING TIES
Is there really something in this rule quotation that you do not understand? it covers all of the field events.


In the vertical events, each attempt at each height is its own competition.
If vaulter1 clears 10' on his 1st attempt and vaulter2 clears 10' on his 2nd attempt, vaulter1 is leading the competition and would be the winner if both competitors fail to clear the next height.
Tiebreak method #1 is consistent with this. However, tiebreak method #2 moves the goal post. The deciding factor is no longer about who cleared the highest height first. The deciding factor in tiebreak method #2 is who had the fewest total number of unsuccessful trials.
This method totally nullifies the efforts of the competitor that was leading the competition before the tie occurred.


That's why tiebreak #2 exists, it is what is used attempt to break the tie. If you as an athlete do not like this, then don't miss on the earlier heights as they will count against you.

Speaking of when the tie occurred: When exactly did the tie occur??
Here is the rule: 1. The competitor with the fewest number of trials for the height at which the tie occurs, i.e., the last height successfully
cleared, shall be awarded the higher place.
According to the rule, the tie occurred at 14'."i.e., the last height successfully cleared, shall be awarded the higher place." is just an example. Not a very good example but an example none the less. Last as in previous which means you count back or last as in final???? Extremely unclear.

So when did the tie occur? If the tie occurred at 14' then vaulter1 wins. If the tie occurred at 14'6" the vaulter2 wins. If the tie occurred at 15' then the last height successfully cleared was 14'6". Which means vaulter2 is the winner.


14' ? the example posted by Bigfandave shows the tie by rule occurred at 16' as they both failed their next three sucessive attempts.


In the running events, you don't penalize a hurdler for knocking over hurdles.
Not 100% true, see the rules for hurding infractions (NFHS) or other rule books (USATF, NCAA, IAAF) for hurdling violations.
If he crosses the finish line first he wins. In the vertical events, the bar is the finish line and when a competitor crosses the bar matters. According to tiebreak method #2, when a competitor crosses the bar does not matter.

Please explain that to me.


Your comparision makes no sense to me, so I have no explanation of what you mean by "when a competitor crosses the bar matters".
Have you ever scrored out a vertical jumps competiton where you had ties at any place? Have you ever then had to break those ties or have to then conduct the tie break procedure for a first place tie?

If you are interested, there are vertical jumps examples in each of the NCAA, USATF and IAAF rule books accessible on-line.
If you feel inclined, you can look at the USATF Masters test or Field Referee test, also on line at http://www.usatf.org/Resources-for---/- ... views.aspx and complete the tie-breaker example.

The bottom line in my opinion is you don't quite get what needs to be done to determine and subsequently break a tie in a vertical jump.
Be assured, you are not the only one that gets confused. We (officials) are more than willing to clear that up for anyone who asks.


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