Weighing vaulters....

[KirkB]

The PLZ was designed as a GUIDE for coaches and their vaulters to see ... judging by where they land ... that their vault is either safe or unsafe. Unfortunately, the wild-and-crazies ignore the GUIDE ... to their own detriment ... but also to the detriment of every other vaulter that's vaulting safely (thus the unfairness of the weight rule).

Pickerbuzz's suggestion to ENFORCE the PLZ ... rather than just being a GUIDE for vaulters and their coaches to use ... isn't really that far out. It puts some TEETH into the idea that if you're landing outside the PLZ then you're probably not vaulting properly ... which when traced back to the root cause might mean that your pole doesn't match your weight / speed / strength / grip / flex / technique ... all without having to have a weigh-in, check in poles, and tempt SOME (very few, I assume) vaulters and coaches to cheat the weight rule. Is that so bad?

Why not experiment with a rule ... for low key meets where all coaches agree ... whereby if you miss the PLZ then it's a miss ... even if you clear the bar. I can't imagine that will happen THAT often ... but it will give the crazies a CLEAR MESSAGE that the PLZ is there for a SAFETY reason ... it's not just to display the mascot of the home team!

Honestly ... why would any sane coach oppose such a rule?

Kirk

[BethelPV]

I will bite and throw in my 2 cents. First off I think before any athlete begins to "vault"... they need to be doing stiff pole drills on the grass and into a long jump pit. When it comes to me coaching beginners, I have a "no exceptions" policy to this. I always begin with the fundamentals, and it generally takes at minimum a week to get my beginners to even come close to being able to do stiff pole drills into the pit. Going along with the direction of this topic, I always have my vaulters begin their stiff pole drills on longer poles above their weights. As they continue to build their technique on approach and takeoff, I continue to raise their grip and eventually move them to a shorter pole at their weight or slightly above so that they might start getting a little flex in their pole. I never let any of my athletes jump on a pole below their weight, no exceptions.

I believe if a vaulter cannot jump on a pole at their weight or above their weight effectively, they need to work on their technique, end of story. I had a vaulter I was working with stay on a pole at his weight for his entire freshman year of high school without bending it! He jumped 11'6" doing that. We continued to work on his technique and takeoff away from the pit, doing sand drills, pole runs, and plant drills, as well as building his speed and proper running mechanics over the summer. Making a long story short, he ended up going up 3 poles in one day that summer when his takeoff and run finally clicked a little bit, and he was jumping on a pole 20 pounds over his weight with a foot higher grip, and ended up jumping 13' and getting a foot and a half PR. If the kids aren't patient enough to learn proper technique and put in the proper work in order to jump higher as well as safer, they don't deserve to be doing this sport. Especially when we get those "crazy" kids who don't even care about the size of the pole, they just want to bend the crap out of it. Lets face it, our sport can be very dangerous if not done properly with good supervision. Even decent/good vaulters can have one bad step that leads to a scary moment in a jump. But as coaches, no matter how much we know about the technique aspect of the sport, we need to do all we can to eliminate that fact! This is why I like the weight rating rule in high school. It forces athletes to learn technique before they just go out there blindly, pick up any pole, and hurt themselves.

My biggest stressor is technique, technique, technique. If a vaulter cannot properly jump on a pole AT or ABOVE their weight, they have some work that needs to be done on technique. This might upset some of you guys for those who have vaulters that are just beginners and you believe need a pole below their weight to learn to vault. I disagree and believe we need to teach technique on stiff poles and as their technique improves the poles that were originally too big will no longer be to big, but instead grow too small! I come from a low budget school as well, so i don't have alot of money to buy poles, so i do what i can with what i have. But that still does not cause to me to put one of my kids at risk simply so they can vault higher in the short term...

[MattM]

I had a vaulter I was working with stay on a pole at his weight for his entire freshman year of high school without bending it! He jumped 11'6" doing that

Exactly, before anyone should even think about bending the pole, they need to have a pretty darn good run, plant, etc... Once they have the technique down on a stiff pole, then may they proceed to bending it.

There's a lot of problems with many high schools when it comes to vaulting and how it's taught. Too often do coaches AND athletes focus on heights. In high school, it seems to be all about height, it's all about getting on the biggest pole and getting over the highest bar. People don't seem to realize that if they don't know any of the technique before the bend, then learning the bend won't benefit them; and with high school kids they frankly do not care. The weight rule helps to regulate this. Often coaches allow kids to work on their technique that's beyond where they're at (I.E. bending when they can't plant, etc.) because of their ignorance of the vault, they simply do not know enough about it. In fact, many high schools do not even have a pole vault coach but still have pole vaulters. When there is a weight rule, the coaches have a guideline, and are easier to say, "you cannot jump on that." Sure, some coaches might not follow this, but generally the weight rule is helpful.

Of course in some certain cases the weight rule might be better adapted, but in general, the weight rule hits the nail on the head. Of course a 150 pound chubby girl will bend the pole a lot differently than a 150 pounds muscular male, but imagine what things would be if that male went to vault on a 145 pound pole instead of a 150 pound one? It doesn't help to vault on a lower weight pole like that. If the guy can't vault properly on a 150 pound pole but can on a 145, then he needs to work on his stiff pole technique some more until he can.

[joebro391]

Actually Kirk, I'm 130lbs [I put a sad face because when I last jumped at Tech, all the big jumpers were TANKS (except for Mike Uhle who's my new hero for jumping on a 15'7, rated 35lbs over his weight!)]. When I first started, I was on a 12' 130 (weighing about 120 at the time). If I remember correctly, I only used this pole because I liked the green (it was a skypole haha). I spent my first season (outdoor season, sophomore year) straight-poling with probably a 10' grip. I jumped 10'6 like this, with no coach. Then at the start of my indoor season, junior year, I started working with a private coach (Mike from Vertical Assault) and he worked me up to a 13'7 140 with a 12' grip and that got me to 12' feet. Then, when I stopped working with Mike, I raised my grip to around 13' [stupid, but I didn't know any better] and PR'd at 13'1 (first post I ever posted on this site)...go figure, BUT NOT RECOMMENDED!! Then I started working with a club that got me onto a 14' 150 with a 13'-ish grip (it was around this time that I weigh about 130) in the summer between junior and senior year and jumped 14' with a 13' grip. It was then that I branched off with other coaches and started becoming a vaulter (and I'll never consider myself a vaulter, any earlier than that). Now, after learning the basics and STILL ATTEMPTING TO MASTER THEM, at 5'7 1'2, 130lbs, I can vault on a 14' 170 from 6 lefts and a 15' 160 from 7 lefts (though those numbers will probably change a bit more, this season).

MY POINT IS: I fully believe that a vaulter should NEVER vault on a pole rated below their weight. Unfortunately it's impossible to know what the minimum rating for certain vaulters should be (per Kirk's football-player bending the crap at of a pole, with a rating, equal to his own weight), HOWEVER, if a vaulter can bend the snot out of a pole matching their own weight, they probably have enough sense to be on a stiffer pole anyway (though that's possibly a reflection of coaching, and the amazing coaching job of high school vaulters {insert sarcasm here} has already been covered in other forums). ALSO, as for Kirk's dilemma of having a vaulter on a pole matching their weight and that still being too stiff for them...their coach should lower their grip and have them completely straight-pole, until their run and plant is decent. At that point, the vaulters MAX-grip on the non-bending pole, should be moved to a pole that matches (or is greater, depending on skill level) the aforementioned vaulters weight, and while NOT swinging up, the grip should be SAFELY moved up (while still landing safely into the pit), until the pole begins to bend, and then the vaulter can begin to swing on the pole [provided they're still landing safely in the pit while not swinging up (JAGODINS)]. -6P

[Thats.What.She.Said]

I think the officials need more clout ... to disqualify a vaulter that's vaulting unsafely. Maybe a 3 strikes and you're out rule ... so if you miss the PLZ 3 times ... including in warmups ... you're out.

hmm yeah, I agree with you folks, that would probably be a solid rule. And I gotta say, not only would it help in making things a lot safer, it would help everyone watching this person jump. I mean I can honestly say, anytime I see a completely unsafe jump the misses the PLZ, I get a little freaked out myself. So it could help put other people at an ease of mind
...if this went down shouldnt it be changed to the MLZ? haha

ooh! and this would force my school to buy a new top cover mat our current one, to be quite honest, is just there for looks, it serves absolutely no purpose beyond that...it take a bit of craziness to jump on our mats...

Don't jump on me about this single suggested solution ... it's just one of many ideas. We should explore them all!

ahh sorry, my b. Being sleep deprived and posting =

[rainbowgirl28]

Part of the problem is schools buying poles that are too light for their vaulters. A good percentage of HS girls weigh between 121-130 and 131-139. So every HS should probably have an 11'130 and 11'140 in stock. An 11'140 was the pole I used the most at my last HS.

It's all relative. Saying someone can or can't get on a pole over their weight is meaningless without knowing the length of the pole. A 12'120 is roughly the same as an 11'140 if you're gripping 11' on both poles. Most coaches who struggle to get their beginners on poles over their weight have the kids on too long of a pole for their ability level. Either embrace the straight poling, or find a way to get shorter poles.

http://www.skyjumpers.com/articles/pvpr ... table.html
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[CowtownPV]

My problem with the weight rule is it only takes into consideration one factor, how much the kid weighs. How far is he running, how fast is he, how advanced is his technique ? I have had lots of young kids jump safely on poles under their body weight. Just about all my beginners as a matter of fact who are running 5 lefts or less jump on poles below their weight and land safely in the coaching box. One of the first years we had girls pv here I worked with a 110 pd girl who was short and slow and she jumped on a 10' 100 untill the state meet where they weighed her. We had to lower her grip and she still almost came up short. I have always felt good at meets about vaulters I work with landing in the coaching box and this was the one time I was worried about her safety.

[superpipe]

One big picture everyone is forgetting is that the weight rating on the poles is also a structural rating. Poles are manufactured to structurally handle a certain amount of force. Obviously there's lots of play built into that number, but without a good "conservative/safe" rating, pole manufacturers assume a ton more liability for structural failure. Pole manufacturers have to take into account those cases where someone is flying down the runway and doesn't jump at all. We've all seen the video of the kid that got shot back 40 feet onto the runway when he didn't jump at take-off. I think it's a great rule. The only reason you would put a kid on a lower rated pole is because you want them to bend the pole. Well guess what, they aren't ready to bend the pole then. If you're really in a rush to get the pole to bend, buy a training pole ( within the kid's weight rating of course ). Gill sells them. They are not legal in comps either, so be prepared.

Plus, without the rule, you'd have a million kids grabbing any pole without even thinking about it and, SNAP!

Kid's not making it into the pit? Lower your grip or get a shorter pole. Pretty easy answer.

Unless you are an advanced vaulter AND have a lack of short run poles, you should never be jumping on a pole rated under your body weight. You're asking for the pole to break.

[KirkB]

... If you're really in a rush to get the pole to bend, buy a training pole ( within the kid's weight rating of course ). Gill sells them. They are not legal in comps either, so be prepared. ...

So far, we're only talking about ... or SHOULD only be talking about ... the weight rule in NFHS meets. We should NOT be talking about what poles you use for training purposes ... that's not the issue.

Of course we can all agree on the need for LEARNING to vault with a straight pole and a low grip. But in a meet?

I would like an honest answer to who ALWAYS adheres to the weight rule for their practices ... especially for short runs. Are there any of you that are staying in the closet on this ... and SAY that you always use poles greater than your weight (or your athletes' weights)? If you are, then I'll bet you ... or the kids you're coaching ... aren't first-year vaulters!

The trouble I have with the rule as it stands ... applied to rookie vaulters ... is that they may have to sit out a full year before they can actually enter a meet with a "competitive" jump.

Further, short of a couple people that understand my issue re the concern of stalling out ... and getting injured in the process ... I think the "just lower your grip" answer is a cop-out. I agree with RG's advice to buy a shorter pole of the same [equivalent] weight ... but I assume that any AD or PV coach with some foresight would already be doing that.

Just continuing to stir this pot ...

Kirk

[MattM]

I would like an honest answer to who ALWAYS adheres to the weight rule for their practices ... especially for short runs.

Me.

Further, short of a couple people that understand my issue re the concern of stalling out ... and getting injured in the process ... I think the "just lower your grip" answer is a cop-out.

It's understandable that people get injured because of this rule, especially when they train on a pole below their weight then go to a meet where they must be weighed and have to more to a legal pole. My belief though, is that without this rule, more people would be injured than with it. There are some people who aren't skilled enough to safely bend a pole on a legal one, but I don't think that the rule should be abolished (or changed) because of that, but rather they need to further work on their technique. For every kid that cannot bend a pole and get into the pit on a legal pole, there is a kid that given the chance, would get on a pole far too light for them and destroy it.

(-> unbiased paragraph ->) Another thing to think about is the degree that someone may be injured. Most of the time when people cannot bend a legal pole, the pole is not very long, am I correct? Most of these cases that I hear about are with people that way in the 120's or so and are on an 11-12'6 pole. While at the same time, most of the people that would destroy a pole lighter than their weight would be when a 135-145ish kid is vaulting on a 120 or 125 11-12'6.? Basically, just assuming that the poles are 11-12'6 in length, would someone be injured more by breaking a pole or coming up short? If the person isn't able to vault on a legal pole, odds are their feet will only be falling 8 or 9 feet, right?

[BethelPV]

Kirk, as I stated in my post, I NEVER have a vaulter on a pole under their weight, no matter if its their first time carrying a pole, or they have been jumping for 3+ years. As i stated before, I had a freshman in highschool jump on a stiff pole almost his entire freshman year, and we continued to work on ways to improve his run, takeoff, and swing in practice so that he could then get his grip higher to bend a pole AT or ABOVE his actual weight. I did this with a teammate in HS as well as we didn't have an actual school coach, but rather a coach we drove to jump with once a week. He jumped on a straight pole for at least 4 meets, never clearing more than 10 feet before his technique got good enough to bend the pole and he again jumped much higher almost instantly once his technique was improving! Its not a cop out to have someone lower their grip, but rather teaching someone how to jump properly and effectively participate in our sport! This should be a NO EXCEPTIONS rule everywhere! Our sport would have far less accidents if we stressed proper technique and made sure people were on poles that fit them, even if it means going to a foot shorter pole at their weight so they can make the pit! I say its better to clear any bar on a shorter pole at or above your weight, than to NH and land in the box on all 3 attempts because you/your athlete is gripping too high on too big of a pole

[ADTF Academy]

I'm all for participation and encouraging everyone to vault, but if you can't shoot a basketball you won't make the basketball team.... If you can't swim you probably shouldn't make the swim team.... If you get run over every time you block the weak side defensive end guess what you won't make the football team.


People if they can't follow the rules and are not safe they shouldn't be jumping in meets. Track is deemed the sport that anyone can go to even if they suck. That's ok, but don't let the few harm the masses. This may be a harsh way of putting it, but serious not everyone is a pole vaulter.... Play all you want in practice, but there may be times when you have to sit a vaulter out. I have worked with my far share of good and really bad high school vaulters. Not everyone can be a 15 footer. If you have a 12 foot guy or 7 foot girl so be it. Getting on longer and softer poles so they can bend it might make them a very unsafe 8' vaulter. Are there safe exceptions to the rule... yes! We live in a society where someone can sue and win for their coffee being too hot. The masses need to out weight the few.


BTW if you have a girl over bending a 11'6" your doing something wrong. If you have a guy over bending a 13' pole your doing something wrong. Those poles are way to small to be over bending.